Ask me about swords.

[Anders Ämting]

So, I have diagnosed Asperger Syndrome with swords as my special interest. What this essentially means is that I'm obsessed with swords, to the point of them being my default thing to think about, and I have spent years assimilating sword-related trivia.

Since swords are a staple of fantasy fiction, I thought I'd offer my expertise to the benefit of the community. I don't claim to know everything on the subject, but if anyone of you have a question regarding swords I'd be happy to try to answer it. Frankly, if you have a question about swords I can't answer, it's probably something I'll end up researching on my own anyway.

Oh, and I've also had some training as a blacksmith and know the basics of bladesmithing, so I may be able to offer advice in that area as well.

[Devor]

I'll take you up on that one. I've always wondered how late and modern day swords, like the sabres officers use as late as the 1900s, compare to older weapons like the broadsword and katana or scimitars. They didn't really see a lot of action so it'd be easy to see how, if they improved on the older swords in any way, it'd often be overlooked.

[Jabrosky]

So, I have diagnosed Asperger Syndrome with swords as my special interest.

Another Aspie here, although dinosaurs and Northeast African anthropology are my special interests rather than swords.

[Phil the Drill]

I'm also curious about more ancient weapons of civilizations that were wiped out specifically South American empires, like the Aztecs. Especially the weapons used that could apparently severe a horse's head (which I think is insane.) Anyway, bone, wood, and stone weapons are really interesting to me. Any ideas about some cool weapons made of my primal stuff?

[Anders Ämting]

I'll take you up on that one. I've always wondered how late and modern day swords, like the sabres officers use as late as the 1900s, compare to older weapons like the broadsword and katana or scimitars. They didn't really see a lot of action so it'd be easy to see how, if they improved on the older swords in any way, it'd often be overlooked.

First I just want to point out that it's a mistake to think of the katana as an "older" sword. The fact is that the Japanese never actually stopped making them, and they are in fact still made to this day. (For that matter, there are Americans and Europeans making them as well. It's quite amazing.) Which is not to say they never changed over the ages, but the katana itself is not a period specific sword.

But to adress your question: It's true swords eventually took on a ceremonial role, but it bears keeping in mind this was a very gradual change. You sometimes hear that guns made swords obselete, but that is absolutely not true - swords and firearms coexisted for a period of 400-500 years. Early guns weren't really that effective and only gradually improved, and since close combat scenarios still happened the sword remained a serious battlefield weapon throughout the Napoleonic era and right into the late 19th century. What guns actually did was take heavy armor out of the equation, and that was what really changed things because medieval swords were almost exclusively designed to counter whatever armor was used at the time.

But that's just the thing, actually: It's hard to talk about "improvement" because practically all swords were designed to do what was required of them in their own context. Were medieval swords better then post-Renaissance swords? Not really; they were just good at different things. What changed wasn't the attitude towards swords so much as the context in which they were used.

But one thing I can say for certain: During the 19th century, the militaries of Europe did a lot of experimenting with their swords. Really, the sheer crazy variety of different blades you encounter from ca the Victorian period speaks of people who took their swords very seriously, and if they did not manage to improve them, it sure wasn't for lack of trying. These guys tried everything at least once: They tried making straight swords for thrusting, and they tried making curved swords for cutting, and they tried making slightly curved but still kinda straight swords that were equally good for cutting and thrusting. They made swords with broad fullers for flexibility and they made swords with accented pipe-shaped spines for rigidity. They made light swords and they made heavy swords, and they had I think something like four different kinds of sword points. Plus, all the while there was this long and very heated debate about wether the thrust was superior to the cut or vice versa. The thrust side eventually won out, and the last swords to see actual use in the field, as late as World War I, were cavalry sabers with narrow thrusting blades.

So, I suppose the answer is that the sword was treated as a serious weapon for as long as it was expected to see use in actual combat, but how "good" a particular sword was is always going to be a matter of context.

Another Aspie here, although dinosaurs and Northeast African anthropology are my special interests rather than swords.

Also useful.

I'm also curious about more ancient weapons of civilizations that were wiped out specifically South American empires, like the Aztecs. Especially the weapons used that could apparently severe a horse's head (which I think is insane.) Anyway, bone, wood, and stone weapons are really interesting to me. Any ideas about some cool weapons made of my primal stuff?

Sorry to say, my obsession mostly only covers metal weapons.

I can tell you about that horse decapitation thing, though: The weapon in question is the Aztec maquahuitl, and it's pretty much considered the sharpest bladed weapon ever created by any culture, anywhere. It's basically a wooden sword with edges made from shards of obsidian, that is to say volcanic glass. Obsidian shards can form edges that are almost monomolecular in sharpness, and some people have used the material to make surgical scalpels. Not primitive old school scalpels, mind you, I mean "actually used in modern hospitals" scalpels.

The downside, of course, is that obsidian is still basically glass, so the edges of the maquahuitl were crazy sharp but also extremely fragile. If I'm not mistaken, Aztec warriors would carry extra shards to replace the ones that shattered in battle.

As for the story about the decapitated horse, I belive it was an account from a conquistador eyewitness. Unfortunately, the last known authentic maquahuitl is said to have been destroyed in 1884, so it's hard to know for sure what they were capable of.

[Jess A]

I must keep your username in my mental database!

I am quite interested in swords. I used to fence when I was a teenager, and I regret not keeping up with it - though I do intend to return to it, though it's been a long time. I can visualise fencing with rapier-like swords (in a controlled environment) from experience, but I know very little about fencing with other types of swords (long swords, for example) or in an uncontrolled environment (other than fighting with stick 'swords' with friends when I was a kid).

My mum bought me a great book about swords for Christmas - for my archive - I keep a lot of references for writing. I am sure that even with the book, I will have a lot of questions for you when I come across them. I'd particularly like to know a bit about how blacksmiths worked. For example, how long did it take to make a sword in the 14th century (or thereabouts)? For example, somebody pays a blacksmith/bladesmith to make a sword (specifically for them). They are told to come back in ... how long?

I'd also like a bit of info on the care of swords in those times as well. Other than the basic 'polishing the blade' etc. Something a bit more detailed if you are able.

Thank you - much appreciated!

[Anders Ämting]

I must keep your username in my mental database!

I am quite interested in swords. I used to fence when I was a teenager, and I regret not keeping up with it - though I do intend to return to it, though it's been a long time. I can visualise fencing with rapier-like swords (in a controlled environment) from experience, but I know very little about fencing with other types of swords (long swords, for example) or in an uncontrolled environment (other than fighting with stick 'swords' with friends when I was a kid).

I just started learning German longsword, actually. (I've had a grand number of one lessons, so you know I know what I'm talking about. ) I've also tried kendo, but quit before I got to actually hit anyone since I couldn't afford the armor at the time. Before that I did some sport fencing, and in retrospect I wish I had kept that up.

Kendo and sport fencing are actually more sports rather then martial arts - they give you quick reflexes and timing, but don't quite give an acurate simulation of using a real sword in a real fight. Still, if you want to learn how to use a sword, they are still better then nothing.

On the other hand, actual historical fencing styles have been on the rise for a while now, so if you do want to learn how to fence with a rapier the way they did in ye olde times, that's actually achievable. Personally, I would love to learn one of the baskethilt styles, mostly because it kinda looks like the sort of fencing you see in movies.

My mum bought me a great book about swords for Christmas - for my archive - I keep a lot of references for writing. I am sure that even with the book, I will have a lot of questions for you when I come across them. I'd particularly like to know a bit about how blacksmiths worked. For example, how long did it take to make a sword in the 14th century (or thereabouts)? For example, somebody pays a blacksmith/bladesmith to make a sword (specifically for them). They are told to come back in ... how long?

Oh dear, I can give an exact answer. I'd say there are a lot of factors involved, like wether or not the smith has other projects to work on as well, wether the required material is ready or has to be ordered in, wether or not the blade is pattern welded and the general quality of the workmanship, or how much of a hurry the customer is in. A funny thing about for example Japanese swords is that the really nice, high quality stuff was created during times of peace, because that meant the smiths had more time to put into their art. In wartimes, on the other hand, you needed a lot of swords right away, so the smiths had to churn out inferior blades quickly. I'm sure the same thing applied to European smiths to some degree.

Also, note that "bladesmith" means exactly that: He'd make only the blades, not the entire sword. It was a specialized profession, same way a heart surgeon today won't perform an entire operation by himself. The be more precise, there would be one master smith and two apprentice/assistants doing the heavy hammering. Then there would be another person in charge of grinding and polishing, another guy doing the hilting, another guy making the leatherwork and so on. Most of the time these craftsmen would be in specific guilds, and you could actually get in serious trouble for intruding on their markets.

But anyway, just guestimating here: About a month for a plain but fairly fancy sword with scabbard and everything, assuming no particular delays. More if you wanted luxuries like engraving and jeweled hilts. You probably couldn't get a sword in less then three or four weeks.

I'd also like a bit of info on the care of swords in those times as well. Other than the basic 'polishing the blade' etc. Something a bit more detailed if you are able.

Well, I know a bit of general sword care, though I'm honestly not sure if there was any particular way to care for your sword in medieval times. There probably wasn't much need for polishing - rather, you want to keep your sword oiled to prevent corrosion and rust, and you'd probably know some basic honing to keep your blade fairly sharp after use.

Come to think of it, I'm not even quite sure how swords were stored while not in use in medieval times - this seems to be one of those gaps in my data bank. I think I'll ask around a bit and get back to you on this.

[Devor]

But that's just the thing, actually: It's hard to talk about "improvement" because practically all swords were designed to do what was required of them in their own context. Were medieval swords better then post-Renaissance swords? Not really; they were just good at different things. What changed wasn't the attitude towards swords so much as the context in which they were used.

But one thing I can say for certain: During the 19th century, the militaries of Europe did a lot of experimenting with their swords. Really, the sheer crazy variety of different blades you encounter from ca the Victorian period speaks of people who took their swords very seriously, and if they did not manage to improve them, it sure wasn't for lack of trying. These guys tried everything at least once: They tried making straight swords for thrusting, and they tried making curved swords for cutting, and they tried making slightly curved but still kinda straight swords that were equally good for cutting and thrusting. They made swords with broad fullers for flexibility and they made swords with accented pipe-shaped spines for rigidity. They made light swords and they made heavy swords, and they had I think something like four different kinds of sword points. Plus, all the while there was this long and very heated debate about wether the thrust was superior to the cut or vice versa. The thrust side eventually won out, and the last swords to see actual use in the field, as late as World War I, were cavalry sabers with narrow thrusting blades.

That's what I keep reading, but I really doubt that's all there is to it. Swords differed in more ways than how curved or straight the blade was. The most powerful scimitars, for instance, were in later periods, highly curved, and weighted heavily towards the tip to increase their striking power.

Also, it's relatively unfair to talk about the thrusting swords as having "won out" just because they were used later than other weapons, and even if so, that wouldn't have applications beyond use in cavalry. The swords used in WWI were used the way other soldiers in history used a lance. If you carried both a sword and a lance, almost certainly you would want the sword to be curved. And if your target was armored, you would need the range and weight of a lance over the control of the sword any time.

What I really meant to ask, though, and probably should have specified, was about the later trend towards single-edged weapons. Post-period swords, for lack of a better word, start to resemble the katana more than the medieval broadsword. The single-edge helped to increase cutting power with a blade that didn't need to be as wide, which in turn, I would think, increases thrusting abilities. I can't imagine what advantage the double-edged broadsword would hold over these weapons even against armored opponents.

As for the story about the decapitated horse, I belive it was an account from a conquistador eyewitness. Unfortunately, the last known authentic maquahuitl is said to have been destroyed in 1884, so it's hard to know for sure what they were capable of.

They made what's supposedly an authentic reproduction of the maquahuitl for Deadliest Warrior, and it successfully cut through the gel-horse's neck. The Obsidian blades didn't shatter so far as I could tell, but they came off the weapon in droves. They also used an obsidian knife to cut out a gel torso's "still-beating" heart. You can watch it on the Netflix instant queue.

For those wondering, the maquahuitl is essentially a flat wooden sword with obsidian shards lining the edge like teeth, as a substitute for the blade. Native Americans like the Aztecs didn't have metalworking, making this one of the most powerful weapons available to them.

Also, based on Deadliest Warrior episodes, another powerful non-metal item is Jade, which the Maori of New Zealand used to create great effect in making weapons stronger than steel.

[Sheilawisz]

Hello, another swords fanatic here!! I love swords from every culture and history period (even though my favourites are European blades from 12th to 16th centuries) and actually I am a producer of Aluminum swords, maybe I should share pictures of them and start a thread about aluminum swordmaking =)

[Chilari]

This thread has me hooked. There's so much here I never knew (about the only thing I did know was about obsidian - and I can add to that, by stating that obsidian objects are used by archaeologists to trace acient trade networks, because there are very few sources of obsidian in the world, and each one is chemically distinct, so finding large numbers of obsidian objects at sites distant from these sources means that site was probably used as a trading hub in valuable objects, not merely obsidian blades and beads).

I also have a question: what do you know about bronze swords? In what ways did their shape and the way they were made differ from iron swords, and were they used differently?