On Getting Criticism

[Philip Overby]

So a lot of us have critique partners or others that read our work. I've been happy with my regular critique partners, so I have no complaints. However, I've recently been engaged in a discussion of what equals "too harsh" when it comes to critiques. We all have different thresholds, I suppose, but I've always been of the opinion if you're asking for critiques, then you're asking to be criticism. That said, someone posted this article to a game designer I really liked:

Raph's Website » On getting criticism

The short points from Raph Koster are this (if you want his explanations, check out the article):

1. Everyone who dislikes your work is right.

My thoughts: If you read his thoughts, this is technically correct. You can't force someone to like what you've written since each person has a different experience. I thought this was one of the most interesting points he has because I think a lot of writers who may get bad critiques or reviews wonder what they did wrong. Well, sometimes you did nothing wrong. Something just didn't work for that particular reader.

2. The criticism that is useful is that which helps you do it better.

Yes, this is another good point. Of course those asking for crits want them to be helpful and useful, not just tearing down work for the sake of doing it.

3. Nothing's perfect.

No matter how long you work on something, it will never be perfect. Sorry. But, it can get as near perfect as you can get it.

4. You have to choose between your ideals and your message.

It's too late for me to think about this too much, but yeah, I'd aiming somewhere in the middle might work best.

5. You have to dig to get the gold.

I take this to mean, you have to work hard to get something as polished and coherent as possible. I'd say polished and coherent is much more important than completely original.

6. Good feedback is detailed.

Agreed. Moving on.

7. People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

It's OK to have friends that tell you that you're really good or that your story engaged them. But yeah, people who just praise ever single thing you do aren't really helping you get better. Some praise now and again is great, but I'd beware too much of a good thing.

8. Someone asked for feedback will always find something wrong.

Very interesting. I find that this has been my overall experience. If you ask someone to look at something, they'll most likely find something wrong with it. Just to feel like they helped. However, you have to decide if whatever they said was wrong works for you or not.

9. Good work may not have an audience.

Another point that is somewhat true and also depressing. There are loads and loads of awesome books out there. However, due to some quirk or subject matter, they may never find an audience. So even if your book is the most awesome thing ever written, if you plan to sell it to the public, you may want to find something that can connect to a wider base. That is unless you're a genius. In that case, carry on.

10. Any feedback that comes with suggestions for improvement is awesome.

Totally agree.

11. If you agree with the criticism, say “thank you.” If you disagree, say “fair enough,” and “thank you.”

My same philosophy. It's never a good idea to argue with someone who spent the time to help you. They found things that didn't work for them. Say thank you and move on. You can chose to improve it or decide that it's already good the way it is. It's your book, do what you want with it.

12. You are not your work.

Always a hard one to accept. Especially if a review or critique feels unnecessarily harsh for you. But at the end of the day, I always detach myself from my projects now. Nothing is sacred. There may be things I feel are really good, but others may disagree. This doesn't mean I'm a horrible writer, it just means I have more work to do.

That's it!

Anyway, if you like to read his points, check out the article. I don't currently have anything being critiqued, but I plan to keep these points in mind for the future.

 

[Svrtnsse]

I'd like to add something to point 11: If you don't understand, ask.
The critique is meant to help you improve and if you don't understand the points brought up (this has happened to me a few times), you're really just shooting yourself in the foot if you don't ask for clarification.
It may also be nice for the person who did the crit to know you're taking on their feedback and learning from it.

Edit: Raph Koster is awesome.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I agree with this article. However, one thing I've learned (and it took me awhile to get there) is that writers (and probably any creative artist) need to mature to a point of being able to accept criticism well.

That doesn't mean I'm ever going to coddle or glad-hand someone with a gentle critique of false praise. I won't. I'm just not wired that way. Instead, if I don't believe they're ready to receive brutally honest critique, and view it as a resource to better their work, then I will just politely decline the critique request.

I used to do a lot of critiques in the Showcase forum. Part of that was me trying to provide a service to the community, but part of that effort was to help reinforce the fundamentals within myself because critiquing another's work helped me to grow. Anymore, I've simply decided that most Showcase posters aren't looking for that level of honesty and prefer someone to give applause, even if it isn't wholly merited.

In light of that, I've developed a few people that I can share work with that I know will give me the straight dope. I'm always open to critiquing with new people but I just won't volunteer crit work if it isn't specifically asked for anymore. Also, I like to know a bit about the person (personality, experience, goals, etc.) before accepting them as a partner. Giving good critique, and establishing good critique partners is a learning process. Doing a thorough critique of even 1000 words takes a lot of time and effort. Additionally, you have to discover what the other person needs, and that takes time. It's exceedingly difficult to give an accurate critique of a single excerpt on the Showcase.

Points that really resonate:

1. Everyone who dislikes your work is right.

6. Good feedback is detailed.

7. People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

 

[Stare At Shadows]

Interesting article, though there are some points I find fault with:

1. Everyone who dislikes your work is right.

Um, it's right for them depending on their own personal taste. Opinions are, as we all know, like certain parts of the anatomy: everybody's got one. Writers shouldn't be too precious about their work, but they certainly shouldn't judge its worth based on the opinion of others. If it were up to me the Da Vinci Code would never have been published, but millions love it and who am I to say they're wrong? A certain degree of self-belief is essential for what is (mostly) a solitary craft.

2. The criticism that is useful is that which helps you do it better.

Yup.

3. Nothing's perfect.

Goes without saying, unless one has a serious ego problem.

4. You have to choose between your ideals and your message.

Nope, I disagree with that strongly. All the books that have ever stuck in my head have been ones in which the author's personal world view permeates each page. All fiction is an exercise in communicating with other human beings, and if an author is deliberately disguising a part of him/herself whilst writing it just becomes a soulless exercise.

5. You have to dig to get the gold.

You have to work to produce anything of merit, but some people are talented enough to set out with a trowel rather than with a spade. I actually need a JCB, but I don't begrudge those who find writing perfect prose a simple prospect, nor do I think their work has less merit because they haven't 'suffered for their art'. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

6. Good feedback is detailed.

No argument here.

7. People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

Depends on the people. If it's someone whose opinion I really respect and I know they aren't an easy sell then I'll take it. If it's friends or family, well, I never ask their opinion about my fiction anyway.

8. Someone asked for feedback will always find something wrong.

In other words, everyone's a critic. As in writing, so in life.

9. Good work may not have an audience.

The masses are asses. Sometimes a good novel hits the sweet spot in the public consciousness, sometimes it doesn't. I tend to think that all good books find their niche eventually, even if it is after the author has died.

10. Any feedback that comes with suggestions for improvement is awesome.

I strongly disagree. Nah, I don't really.:tongue:

11. If you agree with the criticism, say “thank you.” If you disagree, say “fair enough,” and “thank you.”

Any author who allows their work to be critiqued should have a thick skin. Easily offended? Keep your manuscript to yourself.

12. You are not your work.

Yes, I am. My fiction encompasses my philosophy, my politics, everything that makes me human. Not everyone's the same, of course, which brings me back to Point 11. Deal with it or don't play at all.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

1. Everyone who dislikes your work is right.

Um, it's right for them depending on their own personal taste.

That's actually what this article is saying....

 

[GeekDavid]

Um, it's right for them depending on their own personal taste. Opinions are, as we all know, like certain parts of the anatomy: everybody's got one. Writers shouldn't be too precious about their work, but they certainly shouldn't judge its worth based on the opinion of others. If it were up to me the Da Vinci Code would never have been published, but millions love it and who am I to say they're wrong? A certain degree of self-belief is essential for what is (mostly) a solitary craft.

Same goes for Twilight. Some people just don't like some literature. I know people who think that all fantasy is ungodly and everything from LotR to Harry Potter should be kept out of the hands of kids. Are those people right?

As far as the rest of the points, they can be summed up by this quote from Dean Wesley Smith (emphasis his):

Repeat after me….There is no perfect book.

Never has been, never will be. And you certainly won’t write the first one. Sorry.

 

[Stare At Shadows]

That's actually what this article is saying....

I know. I was simply expanding on the bullet point for those who didn't click on the article.

Same goes for Twilight. Some people just don't like some literature. I know people who think that all fantasy is ungodly and everything from LotR to Harry Potter should be kept out of the hands of kids. Are those people right?

Not according to me, but who am I to say they're wrong?

As far as the rest of the points, they can be summed up by this quote from Dean Wesley Smith:

He's wrong. (I'm just being mischievous, btw).

 

[AnneL]

The most useful criticism is often the most infuriating (even when delivered in a kindly fashion) at the time you get it. Look back later on what really riles you up and you may find it right on target.

 

[Feo Takahari]

I've noticed that all the advice on how to deal with criticism assumes an initially skeptical response--"the critic is wrong" or "the critic is stupid" or "the critic isn't my target audience." The advice is therefore geared towards getting authors to take criticism seriously and really analyze it. Does anyone have the opposite problem?

I have a history of hearing someone list reasons why a story is horrible, and believing that those reasons are correct and the story is horrible. At best, I don't feel content until the story has been revised and the flaws have been removed. At worst, I feel powerless to write something that doesn't have those flaws, and I sink into a depression in which I can't write anything. (The latter is particularly common when I'm accused of misogyny--attacking misogyny directly and indirectly has been one of my goals for five years, and yet I'm still not at a point where I can avoid the accusation that I'm part of the problem.) I moped for months after one of my stories got taken apart and mocked line-by-line on Something Awful, and I haven't written in the past two weeks after a misogyny accusation on what I'd intended to be a cute, fluffy romance.

Is there any writing advice at all for the writer who takes criticism to heart?

 

[Svrtnsse]

Is there any writing advice at all for the writer who takes criticism to heart?

Spontaneously, I'd say "analyze the critic".
To benefit from feedback you need to understand it - I don't think anyone would argue that, right?
A part of this is probably understanding who the feedback is coming from. If a person doesn't understand the point you are trying to make, is it because you're not making it clearly enough, or is it because their frames of reference are hanging on a wall in another room.

I'm not sure this is really helpful advice, and it's probably hard to follow, but maybe it has a point at least?

 

[GeekDavid]

A part of this is probably understanding who the feedback is coming from. If a person doesn't understand the point you are trying to make, is it because you're not making it clearly enough, or is it because their frames of reference are hanging on a wall in another room.

Or perhaps they just plain don't like the genre... though why they'd be giving feedback on a genre they don't like is an open question.

 

[Darkfantasy]

I've always felt that if you're posting your work you need to be able to take it like a man!

I believe in honest crit and would always want people to be honest with me and if that means you HAVE to hurt my feelings then okay. It's okay to tell people the truth "your grammar sucks"

But you must give them something back.

"here's how you can improve it ... Also, I really liked your use of description, it was just right."

See I'm being honest, but I'm not just hammering them with the bad stuff. Hit them with the negative stuff, then hit them with the positive stuff you liked. So they don't feel terrible.

I really can't help me if someone has asked me to crit their work, then throw a temper because I don't say "It's amazing!" I always day the bad then the good. I made one comment once on someone's misuse of a word. Praised the things they did right and this person turned into Medusa. Over one negative little comment. I have no time for those people. I won't stroke anyone's ego, and I won't give anyone false dreams.

All the Best

 

[GeekDavid]

I've always felt that if you're posting your work you need to be able to take it like a man!

Reminds me of something someone I know well said once.

 

[AnneL]

I have a history of hearing someone list reasons why a story is horrible, and believing that those reasons are correct and the story is horrible. At best, I don't feel content until the story has been revised and the flaws have been removed. At worst, I feel powerless to write something that doesn't have those flaws, and I sink into a depression in which I can't write anything. (The latter is particularly common when I'm accused of misogyny--attacking misogyny directly and indirectly has been one of my goals for five years, and yet I'm still not at a point where I can avoid the accusation that I'm part of the problem.)

Hi Feo Takahari, below are my thoughts on your questions. Please take what's useful and leave the rest, I think it may come off as more imperious than it is meant to.

So there's a lot to unpack here, because you're talking about craft and about authorial worldview. Re craft, everyone writes crap at times and sometimes if you think it's horrible, it is. You may have sent it out into the world before it was ready. If you want something productive to come from criticism, give a piece to several people to read and then when you do revisions work on the two or three things that they all seemed to identify as a problem. And (here's the tricky part) remember what they are so you can catch yourself and avoid it when you slide into them on the next story.

Re worldview, specifically misogyny, one way to check yourself is to ask if what is happening to the woman would be acceptable if it happened to a man. Swap the characters' names in the scene and see how it feels. If you haven't read Joanna Russ's "How to Suppress Women's Writing," do -- it's an older book written before there were many established women SF/F writers, and it's really excellent re gender and spec fic.

Good luck, and hang in there.

 

[Penpilot]

Is there any writing advice at all for the writer who takes criticism to heart?

I agree with Svrtnsse. Part of your development as a writer is to learn how to judge the critique given to you. I used to have this odd guy in my critique group. They couldn't understand a common idiom like "Can't beat a dead horse", so they told me to not use it. Another time they said they couldn't understand a lot of a chapter, and criticised a lot of things, but then later mention as an aside that they only skim-read it. So I didn't put a whole lot of weight to their comments in general. I took what was useful and tossed the rest.

Also, writers have to learn is to trust themselves and their instincts in the face of criticism. A lot of times critiques are just reaffirming what I already suspect. Sometimes they point out the cause. Other times, they're pointing out symptoms. But if you're unsure if something is right or not, go with what you think. Better to make a mistake on your own terms than to succeed and not know how you did it. You'll remember the mistake and not make it again.

Always keep in mind that even though the story you're working on now may not be that great, the next one will be at least a little better, and the same with the next and so on. Believe and know that. With each story you write, embrace the mistakes and the successes, learn from them, and move on. Every successful writer has a pile of really-really bad stories that won't see the light of day. And each of those stories was a small step on their way up to bigger and better. If you're not falling on your face once in a while, you're not trying hard enough.

 

[BWFoster78]

I've simply decided that most Showcase posters aren't looking for that level of honesty

T.Allen,

I understand exactly where you're coming from. A detailed critique of even a tiny sample takes quite a bit of time. What I started doing is giving the poster comments on a few sentences only. Depending on how that sample is received, I decide if it's worth my time proceeding.

I will say that, though there are some who meet your description, I've found a lot of posters who are the opposite. They really are seeking meaningful critique in order to improve.

 

[Mythopoet]

I find that the real trouble with criticism is that most critics seem to think that what they really are is judges. Most of the criticism I've seen around the internet approaches a manuscript as if the critic is in a seat of judgement over it. They tend to tell the author what things are "wrong" and then they tell they author how to do it "right".

Well, sorry to tell you Mr./Ms. Critic, but there is no such thing as "right" or "wrong" in storytelling. It's all subjective. What you perceive as "wrong" or "right" is really only your personal opinion.

If a critic really wants to be helpful to an author they need to stop talking in absolutes. They need to keep in mind that their perspective is just that: their perspective. Don't point out errors as if your word is final. Say things like "this part didn't work for me because..." or "this sentence felt off to me for this reason..." and don't give solutions. It's the writer's job to find the solution if they do agree that there is a problem.

 

[Jabrosky]

I moped for months after one of my stories got taken apart and mocked line-by-line on Something Awful, and I haven't written in the past two weeks after a misogyny accusation on what I'd intended to be a cute, fluffy romance.

I know those SA creeps. They threw a hissy fit over one of my vignettes too, and that fit largely consisted of reading mean-spirited messages into my writing that I had no intention of conveying. Honestly, I believe their peculiar vendetta against anyone who ever posted on TV Tropes is the only reason they would treat us the way they did. Their existence is why I don't wholeheartedly agree with the first item that says "everyone who dislikes your work is right". Some people are simply not objective reviewers.

 

[GeekDavid]

I find that the real trouble with criticism is that most critics seem to think that what they really are is judges. Most of the criticism I've seen around the internet approaches a manuscript as if the critic is in a seat of judgement over it. They tend to tell the author what things are "wrong" and then they tell they author how to do it "right".

Well, sorry to tell you Mr./Ms. Critic, but there is no such thing as "right" or "wrong" in storytelling. It's all subjective. What you perceive as "wrong" or "right" is really only your personal opinion.

If a critic really wants to be helpful to an author they need to stop talking in absolutes. They need to keep in mind that their perspective is just that: their perspective. Don't point out errors as if your word is final. Say things like "this part didn't work for me because..." or "this sentence felt off to me for this reason..." and don't give solutions. It's the writer's job to find the solution if they do agree that there is a problem.

Speaking as a reviewer, I have done that, but only when it comes to repeated and blatant violations of the rules of grammar and/or punctuation. If a writer doesn't know those rules (which are different from the "rules" of creative writing), it's perfectly acceptable to call them out on it.

 

[Twook00]

These are great. Now, what happens if you share something and get no response at all? That's always the worst IMO. Much rather have a harsh critique than no critique at all.