Trial and Error

[Ireth]

Early on in Winter's Queen, there's a scene where the heroine's father and uncle try to find a way into Faerie via Stonehenge. My intention is for them to try a number of ways to open a doorway among the stones, going from the simple (walking under every stone until they find one that transports them to Faerie) to the complex (trying out passwords and waiting until specific times to walk under specific stones). Eventually they will find a way that works, and the plot shall go on.

My question is, how much time should I spend on the failed attempts before they finally find the right way to open a gate? I've established in previous scenes that they've done a lot of research on Stonehenge, but it wasn't incredibly helpful, and they're basically guessing half the time.

 

[Xaysai]

I thought this thread was going to detail my ill-fated forays into fantasy writing.

I'm sorry, Ireth, I don't know the answer.

I think it depends on how integral it is to the plot, how well written the "searching" is, and if it teaches us anything about the characters.

Couple pages?

/shotinthedark

 

[Feo Takahari]

Remember that your time doesn't have to be their time. You can summarize several hours or even several days of effort in a single short paragraph.

 

[wordwalker]

Depends how the puzzle could get. If there are a fixed number of possible words and things, it could be just "okay, so we try it all" and then decide whether to treat it as a simple process or a patience-grinding one. (Or start a conversation to capture how long it's been taking, with the right combo kicking in at...)

But if a key is any kind of open-ended unknown, you're back to "Speak friend and enter," where it pretty much has to be coming up with the answer and deciding what they're saying just before the idea hits.

Edit: then even after you decide what the tone or key moment is, like Feo said, you decide how to write the compression of it. You could write large portions of an hour of experimenting if you had enough business to cover, or handle seven hours with "Seven hours later, 'Damn, damn, dammitall!' they stomped through the gate with knuckles white on their weapons, hoping the world hadn't come to an end while they tested." Mood's one thing, but how to blur that time is a second, related choice.

 

[Ireth]

Depends how the puzzle could get. If there are a fixed number of possible words and things, it could be just "okay, so we try it all" and then decide whether to treat it as a simple process or a patience-grinding one. (Or start a conversation to capture how long it's been taking, with the right combo kicking in at...)

That's pretty much what they do. "Okay, we'll start with the east stuff first. Start walking under stones, and if we don't suddenly find ourselves in a creepy forest, we'll try waiting for the moon to shine under the stones and hopefully reveal a doorway. If that doesn't work, we'll try again at midnight."

But if a key is any kind of open-ended unknown, you're back to "Speak friend and enter," where it pretty much has to be coming up with the answer and deciding what they're saying just before the idea hits.

I already have an idea of how they'll get through the gate. Eventually one of them is going to hit on the right word to say (possibly the Irish word for 'open', which would be among the most logical things for them to look up), which will reveal the gate and the instructions for opening it, though the instructions will all be in languages the heroes can't read. One of them will remember a trick they read in a book*, and say "Please?" which will change the instructions to English. They read the instructions and follow them, and the door opens. But as I said before, it's everything that leads up to the pivotal moment that's the problem.

*The book in question is Stardust, and the "Please?" is meant as an homage, not a plagiarism. I love that book.

 

[CupofJoe]

If it is at present day Stonehenge; the question might be "how long do they have before the police turn up and try to arrest them?"
In that part of Wiltshire you've probably got half an hour or so...

 

[BWFoster78]

For as long as you can maintain reader interest?

If the trial and error is filled with tension and emotion, stretch it as far as you can. If it's boring, summarize.

 

[Ireth]

If it is at present day Stonehenge; the question might be "how long do they have before the police turn up and try to arrest them?"
In that part of Wiltshire you've probably got half an hour or so...

Heheh, yeah... but they're determined enough to not care about that risk, Vincent especially. Even so, it probably will take less than half an hour, I'm thinking. Then when the police do show up, all they'll find is an empty car and footprints leading to and amongst the stones. (I'm deliberately ignoring the Fridge Logic of "what if the police stumble through the open door", because that would totally overcomplicate the book. Unless, perhaps, Vincent and his brother find a way to close the door behind them. Or maybe it'll close automatically.)

For as long as you can maintain reader interest?

If the trial and error is filled with tension and emotion, stretch it as far as you can. If it's boring, summarize.

Yeah, true. It's not really very tense right now, at least as far as I can tell, but I can try to fix that.

 

[Penpilot]

I'd keep the rule of threes in mind when you do this. I don't mean only give them three tries, but maybe divide your attempts into three stages, giving one important example in each stage. The stages could be something like, try the obvious solutions, try the smart and thought out solutions, and a the failure of the first two, try the desperate and cockamamie.

 

[Devora]

I think it comes down to 2 ways:

1) Puzzle with a simple answer, but a complex way of obtaining it.
(and)
2) Puzzle with a complex answer, but a simple way of obtaining it.

Examples:

For 1). Think of the scene in Lord of the Rings where they have to get through an enchanted door to Moria. All they have is a clue. ("Speak Friend, and enter.") It took even Gandalf awile to realize that the answer was mellon, the Elvish word for "Friend". One would have to have know how to 1) interpret the door puzzle, and 2) know basic Elvish in order to comprehend the question.

For 2). Think of the scene in the Neverending Story where Atreyu must cross through the Sphynx statues in order to reach the princess and complete his question. One catch: He must be "Pure of Heart" in order to pass, or else they would die. How does one know if they are pure? How can they be certain if they have remained pure through out their quest? It's such a complex problem, but all Atreyu has to do is simply walk between the Sphyx statues and pass through.

 

[Ireth]

I'd keep the rule of threes in mind when you do this. I don't mean only give them three tries, but maybe divide your attempts into three stages, giving one important example in each stage. The stages could be something like, try the obvious solutions, try the smart and thought out solutions, and a the failure of the first two, try the desperate and cockamamie.

That was my idea. First comes the simplest solution, just walking under every stone, which fails. Then is the more complex, waiting until the moon shines under a specific stone and walking under that. Finally they try passwords as well as the moonlight. I'm thinking of invoking the Rule of Three with the passwords as well, though it'd require me to think of two more possible words or phrases besides the obvious "open".

I think it comes down to 2 ways:

1) Puzzle with a simple answer, but a complex way of obtaining it.
(and)
2) Puzzle with a complex answer, but a simple way of obtaining it.

Examples:

For 1). Think of the scene in Lord of the Rings where they have to get through an enchanted door to Moria. All they have is a clue. ("Speak Friend, and enter.") It took even Gandalf awile to realize that the answer was mellon, the Elvish word for "Friend". One would have to have know how to 1) interpret the door puzzle, and 2) know basic Elvish in order to comprehend the question.

For 2). Think of the scene in the Neverending Story where Atreyu must cross through the Sphynx statues in order to reach the princess and complete his question. One catch: He must be "Pure of Heart" in order to pass, or else they would die. How does one know if they are pure? How can they be certain if they have remained pure through out their quest? It's such a complex problem, but all Atreyu has to do is simply walk between the Sphyx statues and pass through.

I had a similar idea. Once they finally figure out the password, a riddle is revealed on the stones that they have to answer, and act accordingly to open the door. At this point it reads: "Salt of toil, salt of life, salt of pain." Thus, they have to sacrifice sweat, blood and tears in order to open the door. I'm open to suggestions for alternatives, though.

 

[PaulineMRoss]

Once they finally figure out the password, a riddle is revealed on the stones that they have to answer, and act accordingly to open the door. At this point it reads: "Salt of toil, salt of life, salt of pain." Thus, they have to sacrifice sweat, blood and tears in order to open the door. I'm open to suggestions for alternatives, though.

That's a really cool riddle. I hope they're Oscar-winning actors, though, so they can cry to order

 

[wordwalker]

That was my idea. First comes the simplest solution, just walking under every stone, which fails. Then is the more complex, waiting until the moon shines under a specific stone and walking under that. Finally they try passwords as well as the moonlight.
...
Once they finally figure out the password, a riddle is revealed on the stones that they have to answer, and act accordingly to open the door.

I like this a lot. Especially since the moon doesn't go backward, so I can see them taking step 2 through a couple of stones and having to change their minds: "What if there's more and we have to think of it while the moon's still up-- and hope the right stone wasn't the one it's already passed?" and so guessing the password becomes a race while the moon's still at a given stone. (Okay, the lore may suggest one stone is more likely than others, but it's fun if there are strong clues that it's a stone and maybe something like the moon but not too solid a clue which stone it is.) That's a delicious mix of experiment, scramble, and painful second-guessing while they still can --and even when they get it they still have a riddle too.

Now all it needs is Stonehenge guards marching in and out (or enemy assassins?) to complicate it further, and above all a sense that the world won't end at once and other things might kick in in the meantime so there'd be plenty of drama left if they didn't get it until tomorrow night. ("They have to make this work or there's no story" is usually worth averting.)

 

[Ireth]

That's a really cool riddle. I hope they're Oscar-winning actors, though, so they can cry to order

Well, Vincent is an actor, but he works on stage rather than film. No Oscars for him, but he can certainly cry on command. ^^

I like this a lot. Especially since the moon doesn't go backward, so I can see them taking step 2 through a couple of stones and having to change their minds: "What if there's more and we have to think of it while the moon's still up-- and hope the right stone wasn't the one it's already passed?" and so guessing the password becomes a race while the moon's still at a given stone. (Okay, the lore may suggest one stone is more likely than others, but it's fun if there are strong clues that it's a stone and maybe something like the moon but not too solid a clue which stone it is.) That's a delicious mix of experiment, scramble, and painful second-guessing while they still can --and even when they get it they still have a riddle too.

Oooh, I like that. ^^

Now all it needs is Stonehenge guards marching in and out (or enemy assassins?) to complicate it further, and above all a sense that the world won't end at once and other things might kick in in the meantime so there'd be plenty of drama left if they didn't get it until tomorrow night. ("They have to make this work or there's no story" is usually worth averting.)

Heh. No guards or assassins, but they'll definitely need to evade the police, which would be a problem every night they tried. I seriously doubt the police would believe a story like "We need to find a portal to Faerie in these stones so we can rescue my daughter from her kidnapper!"