Warfare in Rings of Power Season 1

[Mad Swede]

Can't help but be curious now: what would you recommend cinematically for accurate depictions of medieval warfare?

Speaking from personal combat experience I wouldn't recommend any film for it's accurate depiction of warfare of any sort. The reason is that combat is so very personal, in terms of emotions, intensity and awareness of the wider situation. The tension, the fear, the uncertainty, the hope, the relief and exhaustion when it's all over and you've made it. There's no way of capturing all that on film, and I've never managed to describe it well in writing either.

 

[Mad Swede]

I don't know if Tolkien was very specific on the topic. Sometimes I think of Ents as basically trees that come alive, but other times they seem more like mammals or other fleshy creature but with tree-like appearance. Maybe he says more in some of his other writings, but I've only read the Lord of the Rings.

No, I don't recall Tolkien saying anything about the Ents and their physiology at all. All we really know is that they are long lived, can move very quickly, drink something as some sort of food, and that they don't use swords, axes or knives when they fight.

I rather like that kind of ambiguity. Getting everything explained can feel too pedantic, fodder for rules monkeys. But it's a path difficult to tread, being evocative without being either murky or contradictory.

So do I, and it's something I aim for in my writing. We don't have to describe everything, we can leave some things to the readers own imaginations.

 

[Aldarion]

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. Trust me when I tell you that some of the large scale scirmishes I saw in Africa were fought with old style weapons (swords, knives, clubs) using some very old style tactics. There is very little difference between a fight like that and a medieval battle. Not in the way people fight, not in how they behave and not in how they react afterwards. I know there isn't, I and my troops had to pick up the pieces (sometimes literally) after fights like that. And they way people behave and react in an old-style fight like that is very smiliar to the way they act in a modern battle - and I've been in a few of those too.

Are you saying you participated in those skirmishes? Because if you haven't, then you haven't experienced said warfare. You were merely a spectator.

Also, "old style weapons" and "very old style tactics" =/= "medieval warfare". Tribal skirmishes are nearly as different from medieval warfare as medieval warfare is from modern warfare. You only start approaching medieval warfare when tribes start forming large-scale coalitions, as said coalitions are basically proto-states. Skirmishes are merely an element of premodern warfare. Seeing some "large scale skirmishes" in Africa and claiming that you saw medieval battle is like me seeing a shooting range competition and claming expertise in modern infantry tactics because of it.

Just having shields and armor changes things massively.

Similar physiology does not imply similar ways of thinking or even the same view of themselves and the world around them. Even being the same species (ie human) does not mean that two groups see life and warfare in the same way. Modern examples would be the Taliban compared to western nations such as the US, or Japanese doctrine compared to US doctrine during the Second World War. Speaking from personal experience, conducting operations against such opponents is very challenging.

So there is no reason why two different races (eg Ents and Orcs) would fight in the same way or even look on casualties in the same way - and they don't in the Lord of the Rings.

And when did I say that two races would "fight the same way" or that anybody would "see life and warfare the same way"? You are now putting words into my mouth. If you are going to reply to a post, read it first before replying.

What I was pointing out is the fact that similar characteristics inevitably lead to similarities in tactics. Historically, you never saw heavy close-combat infantry engaging in a mass of individual duels on a battlefield, and for a good reason... duels that did happen happened typically outside the battle (combat by champion, as an introduction or interlude in a battle) or in very specific circumstances within the battle. Heavy infantry that breaks formation gets defeated, the end. Hell, even if you watch police and protesters fighting, you see some fundamental tactics... on both sides. "Safety in numbers" is one of basic psychological instincts of any social animal, so yes, this:

is nearly impossible. Even whales use basic formations when under threat of orcas (as do orcas themselves). So no, there is no reality in which above scene makes any sort of sense.

No, we have descriptions of battles and small scirmishes. That is not a description of tactics or strategy. I know it isn't because as an officer I did the junior, higher and senior staff courses. I have a Masters degree in War Studies and I've commanded in the field at all levels up to and including a brigade in the field on a very real military operation.

"We have description of battles" is basically the same as "we have description of tactics". Historically, very few armies actually wrote manuals (among ancient and medieval armies, only Greek, Roman, Byzantine and Chinese authors wrote military manuals that I am aware of). Thus descriptions of battles are the only way to gain insight into most armies' tactics. Gauls, Britons, ancient Germans, Vikings, Huns, Hungarians, Mongols... the only reason we know how any of them fought are descriptions of battles. You basically just dismissed like 90% of military history (and something like 99% of history in general) as worthless for no reason other than "but we don't have manuals!". No, we don't. That doesn't mean we know nothing.

As for strategy, we are basically given a point-by-point description of strategy of both Sauron and his enemies at various points in both Lord of the Rings and the supplementary works (Unfinished Tales and so on). There is actually very little unknown there... so long as one has the time and will to sit down and read.

No, Tolkien doesn't describe strategy or tactics. Not in a military sense, and not in a political sense either.

Wrong. He doesn't provide the comprehensive military manual you appear to be expecting, but he provides quite a lot of insight into both strategy and tactics of both sides.

In fact, we have several quotes providing description of Sauron's strategy:

‘And that we shall not find on the roads to the Sea,’ said Galdor. ‘If the return to Iarwain be thought too dangerous, then flight to the Sea is now fraught with gravest peril. My heart tells me that Sauron will expect us to take the western way, when he learns what has befallen. He soon will. The Nine have been unhorsed indeed, but that is but a respite, ere they find new steeds and swifter. Only the waning might of Gondor stands now between him and a march in power along the coasts into the North; and if he comes, assailing the White Towers and the Havens, hereafter the Elves may have no escape from the lengthening shadows of Middle-earth.’

‘It is over-late to send for aid when you are already besieged,’ answered Beregond. ‘But I do not know the counsel of the Lord and his captains. They have many ways of gathering news. And the Lord Denethor is unlike other men: he sees far. Some say that as he sits alone in his high chamber in the Tower at night, and bends his thought this way and that, he can read somewhat of the future; and that he will at times search even the mind of the Enemy, wrestling with him. And so it is that he is old, worn before his time. But however that may be, my lord Faramir is abroad, beyond the River on some perilous errand, and he may have sent tidings. ‘But if you would know what I think set the beacons ablaze, it was the news that came that eve out of Lebennin. There is a great fleet drawing near to the mouths of Anduin, manned by the corsairs of Umbar in the South. They have long ceased to fear the might of Gondor, and they have allied them with the Enemy, and now make a heavy stroke in his cause. For this attack will draw off much of the help that we looked to have from Lebennin and Belfalas, where folk are hardy and numerous. All the more do our thoughts go north to Rohan; and the more glad are we for these tidings of victory that you bring. ‘And yet’ – he paused and stood up, and looked round, north, east, and south – ‘the doings at Isengard should warn us that we are caught now in a great net and strategy. This is no longer a bickering at the fords, raiding from Ithilien and from Ano´rien, ambushing and pillaging. This is a great war long-planned, and we are but one piece in it, whatever pride may say. Things move in the far East beyond the Inland Sea, it is reported; and north in Mirkwood and beyond; and south in Harad. And now all realms shall be put to the test, to stand, or fall – under the Shadow. ‘Yet, Master Peregrin, we have this honour: ever we bear the brunt of the chief hatred of the Dark Lord, for that hatred comes down out of the depths of time and over the deeps of the Sea. Here will the hammer-stroke fall hardest. And for that reason Mithrandir came hither in such haste. For if we fall, who shall stand? And, Master Peregrin, do you see any hope that we shall stand?’

 

[Aldarion]

When the Prince Imrahil had parted from Legolas and Gimli, at once he ´ sent for Eomer; and he went down with him from the City, and they came to the tents of Aragorn that were set up on the field not far from the place where King The´oden had fallen. And there they took counsel together with Gandalf and Aragorn and the sons of Elrond. ‘My lords,’ said Gandalf, ‘listen to the words of the Steward of Gondor before he died: You may triumph on the fields of the Pelennor for a day, but against the Power that has now arisen there is no victory. I do not bid you despair, as he did, but to ponder the truth in these words. ‘The Stones of Seeing do not lie, and not even the Lord of Baradduˆr can make them do so. He can, maybe, by his will choose what things shall be seen by weaker minds, or cause them to mistake the meaning of what they see. Nonetheless it cannot be doubted that when Denethor saw great forces arrayed against him in Mordor, and more still being gathered, he saw that which truly is. ‘Hardly has our strength sufficed to beat off the first great assault. The next will be greater. This war then is without final hope, as Denethor perceived. Victory cannot be achieved by arms, whether you sit here to endure siege after siege, or march out to be overwhelmed beyond the River. You have only a choice of evils; and prudence would counsel you to strengthen such strong places as you have, and there await the onset; for so shall the time before your end be made a little longer.’ ‘Then you would have us retreat to Minas Tirith, or Dol Amroth, or to Dunharrow, and there sit like children on sand-castles when the tide is flowing?’ said Imrahil. ‘That would be no new counsel,’ said Gandalf. ‘Have you not done this and little more in all the days of Denethor? But no! I said this would be prudent. I do not counsel prudence. I said victory could not be achieved by arms. I still hope for victory, but not by arms. For into the midst of all these policies comes the Ring of Power, the foundation of Barad-duˆr, and the hope of Sauron. ‘Concerning this thing, my lords, you now all know enough for T HE LAST D EBATE 879 the understanding of our plight, and of Sauron’s. If he regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed. ‘Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary. Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule. ‘Now Sauron knows all this, and he knows that this precious thing which he lost has been found again; but he does not yet know where it is, or so we hope. And therefore he is now in great doubt. For if we have found this thing, there are some among us with strength enough to wield it. That too he knows. For do I not guess rightly, Aragorn, that you have shown yourself to him in the Stone of Orthanc?’ ‘I did so ere I rode from the Hornburg,’ answered Aragorn. ‘I deemed that the time was ripe, and that the Stone had come to me for just such a purpose. It was then ten days since the Ring-bearer went east from Rauros, and the Eye of Sauron, I thought, should be drawn out from his own land. Too seldom has he been challenged since he returned to his Tower. Though if I had foreseen how swift would be his onset in answer, maybe I should not have dared to show myself. Bare time was given me to come to your aid.’ ´ ‘But how is this?’ asked Eomer. ‘All is vain, you say, if he has the Ring. Why should he think it not vain to assail us, if we have it?’ ‘He is not yet sure,’ said Gandalf, ‘and he has not built up his power by waiting until his enemies are secure, as we have done. Also we could not learn how to wield the full power all in a day. Indeed it can be used only by one master alone, not by many; and he will look for a time of strife, ere one of the great among us makes himself master and puts down the others. In that time the Ring might aid him, if he were sudden. ‘He is watching. He sees much and hears much. His Nazguˆl are still abroad. They passed over this field ere the sunrise, though few of the weary and sleeping were aware of them. He studies the signs: the Sword that robbed him of his treasure re-made; the winds of 880 T HE L ORD O F THE R INGS fortune turning in our favour, and the defeat unlooked-for of his first assault; the fall of his great Captain. ‘His doubt will be growing, even as we speak here. His Eye is now straining towards us, blind almost to all else that is moving. So we must keep it. Therein lies all our hope. This, then, is my counsel. We have not the Ring. In wisdom or great folly it has been sent away to be destroyed, lest it destroy us. Without it we cannot by force defeat his force. But we must at all costs keep his Eye from his true peril. We cannot achieve victory by arms, but by arms we can give the Ring-bearer his only chance, frail though it be. ‘As Aragorn has begun, so we must go on. We must push Sauron to his last throw. We must call out his hidden strength, so that he shall empty his land. We must march out to meet him at once. We must make ourselves the bait, though his jaws should close on us. He will take that bait, in hope and in greed, for he will think that in such rashness he sees the pride of the new Ringlord: and he will say: ‘‘So! he pushes out his neck too soon and too far. Let him come on, and behold I will have him in a trap from which he cannot escape. There I will crush him, and what he has taken in his insolence shall be mine again for ever.’’ ‘We must walk open-eyed into that trap, with courage, but small hope for ourselves. For, my lords, it may well prove that we ourselves shall perish utterly in a black battle far from the living lands; so that even if Barad-duˆr be thrown down, we shall not live to see a new age. But this, I deem, is our duty. And better so than to perish nonetheless – as we surely shall, if we sit here – and know as we die that no new age shall be.’

And even for organization and tactics, there are numerous descriptions:

Time passed. At length watchers on the walls could see the retreat of the out-companies. Small bands of weary and often wounded men came first with little order; some were running wildly as if pursued. Away to the eastward the distant fires flickered, and now it seemed that here and there they crept across the plain. Houses and barns were burning. Then from many points little rivers of red flame came hurrying on, winding through the gloom, converging towards the line of the broad road that led from the City-gate to Osgiliath. ‘The enemy,’ men murmured. ‘The dike is down. Here they come pouring through the breaches! And they carry torches, it seems. Where are our own folk?’ It drew now to evening by the hour, and the light was so dim that even far-sighted men upon the Citadel could discern little clearly out upon the fields, save only the burnings that ever multiplied, and the lines of fire that grew in length and speed. At last, less than a mile from the City, a more ordered mass of men came into view, marching not running, still holding together.

 

[Aldarion]

The watchers held their breath. ‘Faramir must be there,’ they said. ‘He can govern man and beast. He will make it yet.’ Now the main retreat was scarcely two furlongs distant. Out of the gloom behind a small company of horsemen galloped, all that was left of the rearguard. Once again they turned at bay, facing the oncoming lines of fire. Then suddenly there was a tumult of fierce cries. Horsemen of the enemy swept up. The lines of fire became flowing torrents, file upon file of Orcs bearing flames, and wild Southron men with red banners, shouting with harsh tongues, surging up, overtaking the retreat. And with a piercing cry out of the dim sky fell the winged shadows, the Nazguˆl stooping to the kill. The retreat became a rout. Already men were breaking away, flying wild and witless here and there, flinging away their weapons, crying out in fear, falling to the ground. And then a trumpet rang from the Citadel, and Denethor at last released the sortie. Drawn up within the shadow of the Gate and under the looming walls outside they had waited for his signal: all the mounted men that were left in the City. Now they sprang forward, formed, quickened to a gallop, and charged with a great shout. And from the walls an answering shout went up; for foremost on the field rode the swan-knights of Dol Amroth with their Prince and his blue banner at their head. ‘Amroth for Gondor!’ they cried. ‘Amroth to Faramir!’ Like thunder they broke upon the enemy on either flank of the retreat; but one rider outran them all, swift as the wind in the grass: Shadowfax bore him, shining, unveiled once more, a light starting from his upraised hand. The Nazguˆl screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe. The hosts of Morgul intent on their prey, taken at unawares in wild career, broke, scattering like sparks in a gale. The out-companies with a great cheer turned and smote their pursuers. Hunters became the hunted. The retreat became an onslaught. The field was strewn with stricken orcs and men, and a reek arose of torches cast away, sputtering out in swirling smoke. The cavalry rode on. But Denethor did not permit them to go far. Though the enemy was checked, and for the moment driven back, great forces were flowing in from the East. Again the trumpet rang, sounding the retreat. The cavalry of Gondor halted. Behind their screen the outcompanies re-formed. Now steadily they came marching back. They reached the Gate of the City and entered, stepping proudly; and proudly the people of the City looked on them and cried their praise, and yet they were troubled in heart.

And now the fighting waxed furious on the fields of the Pelennor; and the din of arms rose upon high, with the crying of men and the neighing of horses. Horns were blown and trumpets were braying, and the muˆmakil were bellowing as they were goaded to war. Under 846 T HE L ORD O F THE R INGS the south walls of the City the footmen of Gondor now drove against the legions of Morgul that were still gathered there in strength. But the horsemen rode eastward to the succour of Eomer: Hu´rin the Tall, ´ Warden of the Keys, and the Lord of Lossarnach, and Hirluin of the Green Hills, and Prince Imrahil the fair with his knights all about him.

Not too soon came their aid to the Rohirrim; for fortune had ´ turned against Eomer, and his fury had betrayed him. The great wrath of his onset had utterly overthrown the front of his enemies, and great wedges of his Riders had passed clear through the ranks of the Southrons, discomfiting their horsemen and riding their footmen to ruin. But wherever the muˆmakil came there the horses would not go, but blenched and swerved away; and the great monsters were unfought, and stood like towers of defence, and the Haradrim rallied about them. And if the Rohirrim at their onset were thrice outnumbered by the Haradrim alone, soon their case became worse; for new strength came now streaming to the field out of Osgiliath. There they had been mustered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of their Captain. He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues. Some now hastened up behind the Rohirrim, others held westward to hold off the forces of Gondor and prevent their joining with Rohan.

The Rohirrim indeed had no need of news or alarm. All too well ´ they could see for themselves the black sails. For Eomer was now scarcely a mile from the Harlond, and a great press of his first foes was between him and the haven there, while new foes came swirling behind, cutting him off from the Prince. Now he looked to the River, and hope died in his heart, and the wind that he had blessed he now called accursed. But the hosts of Mordor were enheartened, and filled with a new lust and fury they came yelling to the onset. Stern now was Eomer’s ´ mood, and his mind clear again. He let blow the horns to rally all men to his banner that could come thither; for he thought to make a great shield-wall at the last, and stand, and fight there on foot till all fell, and do deeds of song on the fields of Pelennor, though no man should be left in the West to remember the last King of the Mark. So he rode to a green hillock and there set his banner, and the White Horse ran rippling in the wind.

 

[Aldarion]

So it came to pass that late in the afternoon of the thirtieth day of their journey they were passing the north borders of the Gladden Fields, 13 marching along a path that led to Thranduil's realm, 14 as it then was. The fair day was waning; above the distant mountains clouds were gathering, reddened by the misty sun as it drew down towards them; the deeps of the valley were already in grey shadow. The Dúnedain were singing, for their day's march was near its end, and three parts of the long road to Imladris were behind them. To their right the Forest loomed above them at the top of steep slopes running down to their path, below which the descent into the valley-bottom was gentler. Suddenly as the sun plunged into cloud they heard the hideous cries of Orcs, and saw them issuing from the Forest and moving down the slopes, yelling their war-cries. 15 In the dimmed light their number could only be guessed, but the Dúnedain were plainly many times, even to ten times, outnumbered. Isildur commanded a thangail 16 to be drawn up, a shield-wall of two serried ranks that could be bent back at either end if outflanked, until at need it became a closed ring. If the land had been flat or the slope in his favour he would have formed his company into a dirnaith 16 and charged the Orcs, hoping by the great strength of the Dúnedain and their weapons to cleave a way through them and scatter them in dismay; but that could not now be done. A shadow of foreboding fell upon his heart.

If the keen-eyed Orcs marked their flight they took no heed. They halted briefly, preparing their assault. First they let fly a hail of arrows, and then suddenly with a great shout they did as Isildur would have done, and hurled a great mass of their chief warriors down the last slope against the Dúnedain, expecting to break up their shield-wall. But it stood firm. The arrows had been unavailing against the Númenórean armour. The great Men lowered above the tallest Orcs, and their swords and spears far outreached the weapons of their enemies. The onslaught faltered, broke, and retreated, leaving the defenders little harmed, unshaken, behind piles of fallen Orcs.

They did not have to wait so long. It was not yet midnight when points of red light were seen coming from the north and already drawing near on the west of the river. It was the vanguard of the whole remaining forces of Saruman that he was now committing to battle for the conquest of Westfold. 10 They came on at great speed, and suddenly all the host burst into flame, as it seemed. Hundreds of torches were kindled from those borne by the leaders of troops, and gathering into their stream the forces already manning the west bank they swept over the Fords like a river of fire with a great clamour of hate. A great company of bowmen might have made them rue the light of their torches, but Grimbold had only a handful of archers. He could not hold the east bank, and withdrew from it, forming a great shieldwall about his camp. Soon it was surrounded, and the attackers cast torches among them, and some they sent high over the heads of the shieldwall, hoping to kindle fires among the stores and terrify such horses as Grimbold still had. But the shieldwall held. Then, since the Orcs were of less avail in such fighting because of their stature, fierce companies of the Dunlendish hillmen were thrown against it. But for all their hatred the Dunlendings were still afraid of the Rohirrim if they met face to face, and they were also less skilled in warfare and less well armed. 11 The shieldwall still held. In vain Grimbold looked for help to come from Elfhelm. None came. At last then he determined to carry out if he could the plan that he had already made, if be should find himself in just such a desperate position. He had at length recognised the wisdom of Elfhelm, and understood that though his men might fight on till all were slain, and would if he ordered it, such valour would not help Erkenbrand: any man that could break out and escape southwards would be more useful, though he might seem inglorious. The night had been overcast and dark, but now the waxing moon began to glimmer through drifting cloud. A wind was moving from the East: the forerunner of the great storm that when day came would pass over Rohan and burst over Helm's Deep the next night. Grimbold was aware suddenly that most of the torches had been extinguished and the fury of the assault had abated. 12 He therefore at once mounted those riders for whom horses were available, not many more than half an éored, and placed them under the command of Dúnhere. 13 The shieldwall was opened on the east side and the Riders passed through, driving back their assailants on that side; then dividing and wheeling round they charged the enemy to the north and south of the camp. The sudden manoeuvre was for a space successful. The enemy was confused and dismayed; many thought at first that a large force of Riders had come from the east. Grimbold himself remained on foot with a rearguard of picked men, already chosen, and covered for the moment by these and the Riders under Dúnhere the remainder retreated with what speed they could. But Saruman's commander soon perceived that the shieldwall was broken and the defenders in flight. Fortunately the moon was overtaken by cloud and all was dark again, and he was in haste. He did not allow his troops to press the pursuit of the fugitives far into the darkness, now that the Fords were captured. He gathered his force as best he could and made for the road southward. So it was that the greater part of Grimbold's men survived. They were scattered in the night, but, as he had ordered, they made their ways away from the Road, east of the great turn where it bent west towards the Isen. They were relieved but amazed to encounter no enemies, not knowing that a large army had already some hours before passed southward and that Isengard was now guarded by little but its own strength of wall and gate. 14

It was for this reason that no help had come from Elfhelm. More than half of Saruman's force had actually been sent down east of Isen. They came on more slowly than the western division, for the land was rougher and without roads; and they bore no lights. But before them, swift and silent, went several troops of the dreaded wolfriders. Before Elfhelm had any warning of the approach of enemies on his side of the river the wolfriders were between him and Grimbold's camp; and they were also attempting to surround each of his small groups of Riders. It was dark and all his force was in disarray. He gathered all that he could into a close body of horsemen, but he was obliged to retreat eastward. He could not reach Grimbold, though he knew that he was in straits and had been about to come to his aid when attacked by the wolfriders. But he also guessed rightly that the wolfriders were only the forerunners of a force far too great for him to oppose that would make for the southward road. The night was wearing away; he could only await the dawn.

This is but a portion of what is available, merely what I could find in some fifteen minutes or so I gave myself perusing Lord of the Rings and the Unfinished Tales, yet it already gives us a wealth of information on militaries of the West and Mordor alike. We also have descriptions of siege works, of weapons and many more.

What you are seeking are prescriptions, but as I have said, these are a rare find in historical documents.

No it is not. A chemical analysis of some substance is not an opinion, it is fact. Operational analysis of military battles is not an opinion, it is fact based on some very well grounded theories.

Difference between opinion and analysis is that latter attempts to be objective and cover all the bases, so to speak, removing the writer from work as much as possible. But "perfect", "objective" analysis is impossible, because humans are by very nature of existence always subjective to an extent. Therefore, analysis is still a form of opinion.

Same question to you. You gotta top three for spot-on cinematic depiction?

Eh, for medieval warfare I can't even name top three because I cannot remember three movies I'd put into the list. Even if I expand it to preindustrial warfare, it is still difficult...

300 starts out a-okay with depiction of Greek phalanx, but soon devolves into crazed melee.
Battle of Philippi from Rome has the same problem... starts out ok, but then goes haywire. Still, initial scenes at least are excellent.
Alexander (2004) has some rather decent depictions of Macedonian phalanx from what I remember.
Spartacus (1960) starts out OK, though the way Roman legion maneuvers is pure speculation. But of course, it too ends up in a confused brawl.
Alatriste has Battle of Rocroi which seems to be a good depiction of pike-and-shot warfare. It has some minor mistakes (e.g. ranged cavalry did not charge into the pike formation!), but is overall head and shoulders above most.
The Day of the Siege September Eleven 1683 has a decent depiction of the Siege of Vienna, though many special effects are suspect (explosive cannonballs for one... did not happen).

So basically, Alexander, Alatriste and September Eleven 1683 are decent. All other movies, I can't actually remember even a single one I would recommend.

And Mad Swede is correct that movie won't generally be able to show feelings of combatants... but that I think misses the point of depiction.

 

[skip.knox]

Speaking from personal combat experience I wouldn't recommend any film for it's accurate depiction of warfare of any sort. The reason is that combat is so very personal, in terms of emotions, intensity and awareness of the wider situation. The tension, the fear, the uncertainty, the hope, the relief and exhaustion when it's all over and you've made it. There's no way of capturing all that on film, and I've never managed to describe it well in writing either.

Agreed, and I'm very far from ever having experienced anything of the sort. The effects of combat (as distinct from the effects of war) vary widely from person to person. Even the phrase being "in combat" covers a wide range of experiences. And the effects are going to vary over time, even when considering just one individual. A fiction writer might capture a moment, or even just turn a phrase, that resonates with one combat veteran yet leave another cold while perhaps offended yet a third. Imagining that any author (still less a movie) can somehow "get it right" seems almost pretentious. I would guess that direct experience might bring with it its own complications and challenges.

I've never cast a spell, it's been forty years or more since I've ridden a horse, have yet to visit a medieval tavern, and so on. It's why I don't fuss too much about accuracy. I don't even fret over depictions of medieval settings, politics, economics, and so on. Just tell me a good story and I'll forgive much of the rest. I also try to remember that what is jarring and takes me out of a story will bother another reader not one whit.

It's called a willing suspension of disbelief not because of the believing or not believing, but because of the willingness.

For myself, I become unwilling when the author promises something and fails to deliver. So, if the author is claiming to be writing something historically accurate, that's like a dare for me. Let's see what ya got. But if it's just a work of fiction and it has kings and queens and peasants and such, I mostly just drove past and wave. I'm there for the characters, the plot, the prose.

The striving for "accuracy" is misguided, it seems to me. What I want is information. I want as much information as I can get for the same reason I want as wide a vocabulary, or as firm a grasp of grammar, that I can manage. They are all tools I want to have at the ready as I work my way through a sentence or compose a scene. The information must first and foremost be true to the moment--to the characters, to the setting, to the story so far. The virtue of "accuracy" is to be found in consistency (much as it is for grammar or vocabulary). When I'm describing a fight or a set of clothes or a meal or a horse ride, if I'm just making stuff up, I'm more likely to be contradictory or even absurd. If I have done good research, if I have a solid understanding (experiential or otherwise), then my presentation and narrative ought to be the stronger for it.

If the finished product satisfies the reader, then I am satisfied (delighted, really). If it fails to satisfy, well then. Maybe we can talk about it over a cuppa one fine day. But the text stands.

 

[Nighty_Knight]

Are you saying you participated in those skirmishes? Because if you haven't, then you haven't experienced said warfare. You were merely a spectator.

Also, "old style weapons" and "very old style tactics" =/= "medieval warfare". Tribal skirmishes are nearly as different from medieval warfare as medieval warfare is from modern warfare. You only start approaching medieval warfare when tribes start forming large-scale coalitions, as said coalitions are basically proto-states. Skirmishes are merely an element of premodern warfare. Seeing some "large scale skirmishes" in Africa and claiming that you saw medieval battle is like me seeing a shooting range competition and claming expertise in modern infantry tactics because of it.

Just having shields and armor changes things massively.

And when did I say that two races would "fight the same way" or that anybody would "see life and warfare the same way"? You are now putting words into my mouth. If you are going to reply to a post, read it first before replying.

What I was pointing out is the fact that similar characteristics inevitably lead to similarities in tactics. Historically, you never saw heavy close-combat infantry engaging in a mass of individual duels on a battlefield, and for a good reason... duels that did happen happened typically outside the battle (combat by champion, as an introduction or interlude in a battle) or in very specific circumstances within the battle. Heavy infantry that breaks formation gets defeated, the end. Hell, even if you watch police and protesters fighting, you see some fundamental tactics... on both sides. "Safety in numbers" is one of basic psychological instincts of any social animal, so yes, this:

is nearly impossible. Even whales use basic formations when under threat of orcas (as do orcas themselves). So no, there is no reality in which above scene makes any sort of sense.

"We have description of battles" is basically the same as "we have description of tactics". Historically, very few armies actually wrote manuals (among ancient and medieval armies, only Greek, Roman, Byzantine and Chinese authors wrote military manuals that I am aware of). Thus descriptions of battles are the only way to gain insight into most armies' tactics. Gauls, Britons, ancient Germans, Vikings, Huns, Hungarians, Mongols... the only reason we know how any of them fought are descriptions of battles. You basically just dismissed like 90% of military history (and something like 99% of history in general) as worthless for no reason other than "but we don't have manuals!". No, we don't. That doesn't mean we know nothing.

As for strategy, we are basically given a point-by-point description of strategy of both Sauron and his enemies at various points in both Lord of the Rings and the supplementary works (Unfinished Tales and so on). There is actually very little unknown there... so long as one has the time and will to sit down and read.

Wrong. He doesn't provide the comprehensive military manual you appear to be expecting, but he provides quite a lot of insight into both strategy and tactics of both sides.

In fact, we have several quotes providing description of Sauron's strategy:

Here is a video that gives some information on what a slightly larger scale battle would likely be like.

Now it doesn't have the tactics from the period, but it is a battle with 300 full armored men at arms. Obviously it goes without the death and many of the other gruesome things with war. No men screaming in pain, blood everywhere, limbs and all that. But from a fighting standpoint it gives the idea that the fights would likely play out somewhat similar. I was told by one of the team captains that team fights, once you hit the 5 versus 5 and larger, are essentially long bouts of being as lazy to conserve energy with short bursts of extreme violence.

The first team that even begins to get an edge gains a very clear advantage and its up to the other side to overcome odds then. Now I could only imagine the chaos with 3000 men, archers, cavalry charges, and even artillery. Having a break in your lines is nearly, unless you are intentionally funneling them in, is typically a deathstroke, the end usually follows quickly.

There is another video around from one year, it had an overhead view filmed by a drone. It was really cool to see the fights play out and how quick it ended once one side broke the lines and overwhelmed the other side. That and you could actually see there were tactics in play, which is very difficult to make out in first person or highlight videos.

 

[Prince of Spires]

once you hit the 5 versus 5 and larger, are essentially long bouts of being as lazy to conserve energy with short bursts of extreme violence.

The first team that even begins to get an edge gains a very clear advantage and its up to the other side to overcome odds then. Now I could only imagine the chaos with 3000 men, archers, cavalry charges, and even artillery. Having a break in your lines is nearly, unless you are intentionally funneling them in, is typically a deathstroke, the end usually follows quickly.

This, funnily enough, made me think of RTS computer games.

Stick with me. I grew up in the golden age of Real Time Strategy games and I still love and follow Age of Empires 2. And you see this very dynamic play out in RTS games.

A small edge can quickly spiral out of control. Go into a fight between equal units with only 1 model more than your opponent, and you don't end the fight with only 1 model more, you end it with 5 or 10 models more. Just because that 1 model more means you kill 1 model twice as fast as your opponent, which then leaves you with 2 models more that can deal with the next one just a bit faster, leaving you with 3 models more and so on. It can quickly spiral out of control.

If you watch the best players, then they will gain a small advantage, slowly expand on that, until they reach a tipping point and the whole thing quickly spirals out of control. If you listen to their commentary, you can sometimes even hear them say early on that they are dead, long before average players would notice. And then you can slowly watch the whole thing play out as they predicted.

Now, there are of course plenty of differences as well. But I thought it a funny similarity.

 

[Finchbearer]

But how does all this possibly relate to orcs vs humans in middle earth??

What I thought was visceral and epic about RoP, if we’re comparing to the other well known creative depictions of middle earth, namely Peter Jackson interpretations, is that RoP did not shy away from showing people actually getting properly injured, which we see in episode 6, Udûn, where Peter Jackson’s interpretations just sort of gloss over. We see the orcs kill mercilessly and use horrendous tactics, such as dressing humans up as orcs so that the Southlanders end up killing their own people. Many criticisms that have come in about Galadriel actually just also feel like barely concealed sexism, because if it was a man commanding an army, there wouldn’t be so many nay-sayers, or it wouldn’t be half as hyper-focused on. Tolkien studied the Valkyries after all.

The ‘peasants being stupid stereotype’ is actually fairly true to how to how we (in Britain) were once viewed by the rest of Europe during the early Middle Ages, or the ‘dark ages’, when governance was highly fragmented and we were mere illiterate and simple hovel-dwellers still living in wattle and daubs while the rest of Europe forged ahead. I think Tolkien did reference this in his work.

And it’s also very listening to those so-called Tolkien fans who will nay say nearly every single interpretation of middle earth as being canonically inacccuarte. Nobody said Rings of Power required itself to be accurate to the canon. They paid for rights to the notebooks of Tolkien and nothing more, and used that as a springboard to make their own creative interpretation, which in my opinion allows me to spend some more time with my pals in Middle Earth. Plus we see some female characters with agency, and some non-white characters, shock horror.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Even the coconuts?

Especially the coconuts! And pitching the moo, of course.

 

[Aldarion]

Here is a video that gives some information on what a slightly larger scale battle would likely be like.

Now it doesn't have the tactics from the period, but it is a battle with 300 full armored men at arms. Obviously it goes without the death and many of the other gruesome things with war. No men screaming in pain, blood everywhere, limbs and all that. But from a fighting standpoint it gives the idea that the fights would likely play out somewhat similar. I was told by one of the team captains that team fights, once you hit the 5 versus 5 and larger, are essentially long bouts of being as lazy to conserve energy with short bursts of extreme violence.

The first team that even begins to get an edge gains a very clear advantage and its up to the other side to overcome odds then. Now I could only imagine the chaos with 3000 men, archers, cavalry charges, and even artillery. Having a break in your lines is nearly, unless you are intentionally funneling them in, is typically a deathstroke, the end usually follows quickly.

There is another video around from one year, it had an overhead view filmed by a drone. It was really cool to see the fights play out and how quick it ended once one side broke the lines and overwhelmed the other side. That and you could actually see there were tactics in play, which is very difficult to make out in first person or highlight videos.

Yep. That looks good - especially the part where much of the fight is spent observing the opponent. My own HEMA experience is unfortunately mostly one-on-one duels (there aren't any actual HEMA clubs where I live), but even so, when a single mistake can mean death and you also won't necessarily have time to rest... you want to make that strike count.

What I thought was visceral and epic about RoP, if we’re comparing to the other well known creative depictions of middle earth, namely Peter Jackson interpretations, is that RoP did not shy away from showing people actually getting properly injured, which we see in episode 6, Udûn, where Peter Jackson’s interpretations just sort of gloss over. We see the orcs kill mercilessly and use horrendous tactics, such as dressing humans up as orcs so that the Southlanders end up killing their own people. Many criticisms that have come in about Galadriel actually just also feel like barely concealed sexism, because if it was a man commanding an army, there wouldn’t be so many nay-sayers, or it wouldn’t be half as hyper-focused on. Tolkien studied the Valkyries after all.

Peter Jackson was on a budget. He couldn't show people get injured not just because of ratings, but primarily because it would have been too expensive.

As for Galadriel, "sexism" argument is just a bad cop out. Issue with Galadriel in Rings of Power is that she is absolutely nothing like Galadriel was at that time. Hell, even the actual young, early-post-Valinor, Galadriel was far more composed and far wiser than the show Galadriel. Sure, she was prideful, headstrong and likely fought herself... but Amazon made these characteristics basically the entirety of Galadriel's character.

Rings of Power took a character that in Tolkien was meant to be strong and wise, and turned her into a raging lunatic. Let me remind you that Tolkien's Galadriel was among the first to see through both Melkor's and Sauron's lies; by contrast, Amazon / RoP Galadriel allows herself to be led by the nose.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Hello everyone!

We have received a report today, regarding the discussion in this thread. At the moment, I am not going to reveal the person that was reported. For now, I just want to remind everyone involved about the Mythic Scribes Forum rules.

Please, no racism, no flaming and no snide, derisive or degrading comments.

The Guiding Principle - The guiding principle is to treat others with respect and dignity, and to foster a positive, welcoming and family friendly community.

Thank you!

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I get both sides of the discussion here, and I could make arguments in both directions, from warfare (which is barely depicted) down to the depiction of Galadriel. I choose to be happy that Epic Fantasy is being made into movies and series AT ALL, even when I don't enjoy them. Thirty to forty years ago the minimal amount of Fantasy being made was less than iffy. I can't stand Harry Potter books or movies, but by golly, even when the craze first hit I was ecstatic that more kids were reading long-form fantasy books.

Be happy to have something to complain about, heh heh.