Advice for writing themes into the story without hitting the reader over the head with them

[Incanus]

I'm trying to recall a time that I thought a book hit its theme too hard, or too obviously. I can't think of any off hand. Of course, there is plenty of material out there I haven't read.

But, how common is this?

I would guess that a novel that handles its theme poorly is also handling other important elements poorly as well. Perhaps it is the books I don't get through that have this sort of theme problem.

 

[Jackarandajam]

I'm trying to recall a time that I thought a book hit its theme too hard, or too obviously. I can't think of any off hand. Of course, there is plenty of material out there I haven't read.

But, how common is this?

I would guess that a novel that handles its theme poorly is also handling other important elements poorly as well. Perhaps it is the books I don't get through that have this sort of theme problem.

1. Jurassic World:
Theme: don't mess with mother nature
Opposing opinion: some blatantly stupid people thought they had it handled because human smarter than dumb lizard, plus a vague bit about how trained raptors might be useful.
Debate: no real debate, stupid arrogant people playing with fire, largely for no reason other than because they think it's cool.

2. Moana:
Theme: ...Everyone is stupid, selfish and scared but you?
Opposing opinion: it's cool to be selfish and/or afraid, toe the line.
Debate: there's a 15 second bit with obi-wan-grandma about how if it's too exhausting being the only awesome human, giving up is fine.

3. Alice in Wonderland (2010):
Theme: take control of your own destiny.
Opposing opinion: a group of comically miserable stuffy people being stuffy, vaguely paralleled with an evil queen and her iron grip on quirkiness.
Debate: stuffy people demanding she be stuffy because that's the way it be. Brief reticence to be the chosen one because being brave takes courage.

Just off the top of my head. Not necessarily bad movies, but all did a bad job of actually weighing the theme against anything, which overplays the theme and makes it seem like the movie is just blatantly telling you what to think.

 

[Jackarandajam]

I'm trying to recall a time that I thought a book hit its theme too hard, or too obviously. I can't think of any off hand. Of course, there is plenty of material out there I haven't read.

But, how common is this?

I would guess that a novel that handles its theme poorly is also handling other important elements poorly as well. Perhaps it is the books I don't get through that have this sort of theme problem.

On books... a little harder to say. I think you're probably right about them handling other things poorly as well and not making the cut for picky readers, me included.
Kids books and kids movies tend to be more blatant, which is understandable. I don't read alot of nytb pop-topic literary fiction, which is probably where this would come up, if it did, or in psuedo-YA stuff.

 

[Incanus]

You seem to have a decent handle on this, Jack. I tend not to do so well with the more abstract aspects of fiction (I find it rather like trying to grasp a well-rounded bar of soap floating in a bathtub--I can make contact, but it just slips away when I do).

Jurassic World--I only made through about 15-20 minutes; didn't care for it enough to continue. Moana--never saw it. Alice--I saw that one, and thought it mostly so-so at best. I didn't notice anything about the theme one way or the other at the time.

I am going to assume I mishandle the theme in my own work sooner or later, but I'm not too worried about it. It can likely be fine-tuned with some revision.

 

[Queshire]

2. Moana:
Theme: ...Everyone is stupid, selfish and scared but you?
Opposing opinion: it's cool to be selfish and/or afraid, toe the line.
Debate: there's a 15 second bit with obi-wan-grandma about how if it's too exhausting being the only awesome human, giving up is fine.

Wut? That ain't the theme. The theme is about trying to find a balance between duty and independence.

 

[Queshire]

If I was to write this and want to use that as my theme, I would begin with the dark world. What makes it dark? how did it get that way? Why does it persist?

I'd also consider whether I want the world to objectively be dark (Like, say, a post apocalyptic setting) or if it's more of a result of the character's circumstances making things dark (like, say, getting stuck with a villainous power in a setting where everybody gets powers and getting a bad hand because of that.)

Gonna disagree with this sentiment. The world needs them all...those trying to prove their stuff, and those asking the questions. Its not a fewer or more thing. As we go long some of all flavors will bubble up, and maybe for a time, win the day, but without it, none of us have anything to chew on, and humanity suffers. If you got something to say...say it. If what you got to say is that no one should have anything to say, say that instead, but say it.

Yep. I agree with this.

 

[The Dark One]

Just about every movie Robin Williams was ever in... inspiring individual destroyed by the conservative system.

They were usually good movies but it gets a bit wearying. I loved the Patch Adams bit on Family Guy when Patch is performing in the ward and all the kids are switching off their life support machines.

 

[Queshire]

One of the major themes I explore is that of "defining yourself," and I tried to weave that into how my magic system functions. Actually, I ended up doing so multiple times over, but that's because I kept finding places where it fit. 0_o

1) A person's self image held within their spirit plays a role in their magical defenses (so a witch can't just turn them into a frog and step on them.) It provides a template that magical healing can use to heal someone, but also limits magical healing. Wounds/scars old enough or emotionally significant enough to be reflected on the person's self image are hard to heal with magic.

2) Basic magic & techniques are rather generic and purposefully video game-y, but the more you practice with them the stronger and more customized you can make them. A mage that starts out with [Magic Missile] who invests in it enough could, by time they're an archmage, create magic missiles that look like stars made out of magical energy falling out of the night sky to crush a city. A lower level example might be someone specializing in barrier spells developing them to the ability that they can create horizontal barriers in mid-air that they can stand on.

3) In general depending on how powerful a magic user you are there's different areas that you focus on, but all together they're meant to act as sort of a path.
>Stage 1) Magical power and any natural magical affinities are the most important things. This is an inborn trait, though genetics have an effect. (Represents what family circumstances you're born into.)
>Stage 2) What school you go to & training you receive becomes most important. Even someone with the same natural magical affinities will turn out different if they attend a school for pure mages vs one of magic knights vs one for alchemists. (Represents the influence that schooling & education has on someone.)
>Stage 3) To continue to increase magical power you need to start weaving it into your body. Doing so successfully & safely requires having a clear image of yourself and the magic you're weaving into yourself. (Represents developing an idea of who you think yourself to be.)
>Stage 4) Continuing to advance your magic beyond this largely requires thinking on the nature of the magic and refining it. For example, a fire mage would need to understand the differences between a forge's flames, the flames of war, a cooking hearth's flames, etc and decide which one their flames are. (Represents developing an idea of how the world functions.
>Stage 5) There's no more guides at this stage. Everything has to be developed by the magic user in question. (This one is a bit more abstract, but the strength in this stage comes from acknowledging what truly motivates you and aiming towards that. Represents, well, getting an idea of what you want out of life.)

As fantasy writers one of our big advantages is the ability to set up how our magic systems work in order to support the themes we want to tackle. It's possible to do the same with how society is set up in our stories, but that can be harder to do since, well, the society still has to function.

 

[pmmg]

I could name a few books but i think i will keep them to myself. Movies is easier. There is more commonality between movies. More ppl have seen the same ones. I think that list is quite long.

 

[Jackarandajam]

Wut? That ain't the theme. The theme is about trying to find a balance between duty and independence.

So I consulted my emotional superior on this, she brought up identity as the theme:
1. Moana's identity didn't match father = failure.
2. Moanas grandmother's identity is crazy lady = dont listen to her.
3. Chicken bad at being chicken = cook it?
4. Tafiti's identity after heart stolen failed to match expectation = renamed lava monster.
5. Mauis loss of identity = magical ED

So theoretically, the theme could be "Accept other people the way they are." ?

 

[Jackarandajam]

You seem to have a decent handle on this, Jack. I tend not to do so well with the more abstract aspects of fiction (I find it rather like trying to grasp a well-rounded bar of soap floating in a bathtub--I can make contact, but it just slips away when I do).

Jurassic World--I only made through about 15-20 minutes; didn't care for it enough to continue. Moana--never saw it. Alice--I saw that one, and thought it mostly so-so at best. I didn't notice anything about the theme one way or the other at the time.

I am going to assume I mishandle the theme in my own work sooner or later, but I'm not too worried about it. It can likely be fine-tuned with some revision.

I've just been pounding books on writing into my brain, scraping together what they all seem to agree on, poking around in the real world to see if what they say seems true, trying to put it into practice, and learning what I can from personal experience. That is the limit of my knowledge.

I don't think there's a right order. We've expressed similar ways stories pop into our heads, it's probably a longer path to completion than someone who's lucky enough to have everything spark in the most convenient order in their gray matter, but whatever. To finishing regardless!

 

[Prince of Spires]

I personally think that if you're a beginning writer on your first or second novel, then don't worry over theme. First off, people will find a theme in your novel no matter if you include it or not. But also, you can write a fine story without a specific theme, and writing a novel is hard enough without worrying about it too much.

One advice I like is what Stephen King gives in On Writing. And that is to simply write your story first. Then, when you go to read through it after you'v finished your first draft, pay attention to what the story actually is about. What themes do you see? Once you find those, then when you sit down to do the second draft, enhance those themes so they pop more.

Or in the words of Neil Gaiman: The second draft is where you pretend you knew what you were doing all along.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I always find those sorts of comments (King and Gaiman) amusing because there are so many approaches.

As for people will always find themes? You bet your ass they will! That's what English Lit is all about, heh heh. Whenever I reread my books, my old English Lit brain can go crazy on thematic elements, but unfortunately, some of those themes connected to current events happened after publication heh heh. It's kind of like, on the one hand, I agree with Tolkien on not liking allegory, but on the other hand, is it even possible to write fiction without it being allegory on some level?

I personally think that if you're a beginning writer on your first or second novel, then don't worry over theme. First off, people will find a theme in your novel no matter if you include it or not. But also, you can write a fine story without a specific theme, and writing a novel is hard enough without worrying about it too much.

One advice I like is what Stephen King gives in On Writing. And that is to simply write your story first. Then, when you go to read through it after you'v finished your first draft, pay attention to what the story actually is about. What themes do you see? Once you find those, then when you sit down to do the second draft, enhance those themes so they pop more.

Or in the words of Neil Gaiman: The second draft is where you pretend you knew what you were doing all along.

 

[Finchbearer]

Coraline now gets studied at GCSE level in English schools. I think that would have bored me to death. I’m glad I studied Macbeth instead.

 

[pmmg]

I'm sure if I was in high school, I would have skipped on Coraline After all...Homework

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Some things being read in US High Schools these days dumbfound me. Then again, some topics for master's degrees make me slap my head. Then again, some things the gov't hands out millions of dollars for some qualified idiot to study make me sick.

Coraline now gets studied at GCSE level in English schools. I think that would have bored me to death. I’m glad I studied Macbeth instead.

 

[Finchbearer]

I don’t know if kids still have these choices but when I was at school it was Shakespeare (whether you liked it or not!) and a choice of To Kill a Mockingbird, Catcher in the Rye or Of Mice and Men, which made total sense given our proud British American heritage…

 

[pmmg]

I don’t know if kids still have these choices but when I was at school it was Shakespeare (whether you liked it or not!) and a choice of To Kill a Mockingbird, Catcher in the Rye or Of Mice and Men, which made total sense given our proud British American heritage…

Sounds similar to my experience (only, I was in drama, so we had more Shakespeare). I read some of the book my kids were assigned, and mostly I was an unhappy parent. But that phase of life is over for me

 

[Prince of Spires]

I read Of Mice and Men in English and I enjoyed the read. It was fast, fun, and accessible, while still offering depth.

I personally do think that the focus on literature in high school can do more harm than good though. Forcing teenagers to wade through dense, hard to read texts and then dig into what sub-themes the author may or may not have intended is a great way to turn kids off of reading. Give them enjoyable, modern books to read and then dig into those.

Of course you can add in one or two classics. But this focus on long dead authors just because they make the teacher feel important is a terrible way to make kids enjoy reading. I think you'd get a far better teaching engagement ripping apart Twilight than Moby Dick.

I always find those sorts of comments (King and Gaiman) amusing because there are so many approaches.

There are indeed. Which is why I don't like absolute advice which says that you always should do X or Y. It's bound to be wrong for most writers, and it does more harm than good in plenty of cases.

Here I think they offered decent advice for a writer who's struggling to write themes into his novel.

 

[The Dark One]

Of course you can add in one or two classics. But this focus on long dead authors just because they make the teacher feel important is a terrible way to make kids enjoy reading. I think you'd get a far better teaching engagement ripping apart Twilight than Moby Dick.

Is that what you truly think is happening?

Shakespeare was voted Man of the Millenium for a reason.