Advice or help finding cultural consultants/collaborators?

[Finchbearer]

When we think of gatekeeping in literal terms, think of the medieval walled city with its gatekeepers whose job was to limit or control access to the city.

In modern day terms we can apply that term to so many professions, secretary’s, security guards and so on.

Every single person who works in media is working in a gatekeeping profession because they get to decide on what information the public get to consume.

Think of the newspaper editor who job is an important job, but it’s also a biased one. We all have conscious and unconscious biases, and newspapers are pretty much a prime example of this. Most news media leans politically either left or right and the tone of the journalism reflects this. The editor ensures this tone.

It’s the same in publishing but to a lesser extent. Editors are the main gatekeepers in that industry.

On representation - I think it’s relative. It’s only as important or relevant as an individual feels it is.

 

[Fyri]

When we think of gatekeeping in literal terms, think of the medieval walled city with its gatekeepers whose job was to limit or control access to the city.

In modern day terms we can apply that term to so many professions, secretary’s, security guards and so on.

Every single person who works in media is working in a gatekeeping profession because they get to decide on what information the public get to consume.

Think of the newspaper editor who job is an important job, but it’s also a biased one. We all have conscious and unconscious biases, and newspapers are pretty much a prime example of this. Most news media leans politically either left or right and the tone of the journalism reflects this. The editor ensures this tone.

It’s the same in publishing but to a lesser extent. Editors are the main gatekeepers in that industry.

On representation - I think it’s relative. It’s only as important or relevant as an individual feels it is.

Well, not exactly, I'd say.

If you want to be traditionally published, the publishers are the gatekeepers. Likewise, if you are seeking well known publishers that don't take unsolicited submissions, you'll be needing an agent. Then they would also be gatekeepers.

However, these days, self-publishing exists as a decently respected pathway. Some self-published books are super well written and popular, and some fail to shine, only because they didn't get enough work done before publishing to actually do well in the public, but it did make it into public access. When you self publish, you are your own gatekeeper. Your limits are simply your own marketing abilities and whether you've written material the public wants to consume.

When you hire an editor, they don't decide whether you can publish a book or not. In fact, you can ignore everything they say and self-publish your book as it is. However, if you work with an agent or traditional publisher, you are now part of a partnership. They risk their own business, brand, and loyalty when they publish new stories. They "gatekeep" what is published under their name, but not what is published in general. Thus, they have editors that work for them to give you advice on your story, but you still have power to decide what you like or disagree with, depending on the contract you sign.

 

[Finchbearer]

Every single person who works in media is working in a gatekeeping profession because they get to decide on what information the public get to consume.

Fyri it’s difficult to know with what you agree with or not, but to paraphrase myself here - I’ll reiterate, everyone who works in media is working in a gatekeeping profession - editors, agents, publishers, proof readers and sensitivity readers. Err’body. Yes yourself too if you self publish in a sense. But make no mistake, I think we all work on bias’s whether we’re aware of them or not.

 

[Fyri]

Fyri it’s difficult to know with what you agree with or not, but to paraphrase myself here - I’ll reiterate, everyone who works in media is working in a gatekeeping profession - editors, agents, publishers, proof readers and sensitivity readers. Err’body. Yes yourself too if you self publish in a sense. But make no mistake, I think we all work on bias’s whether we’re aware of them or not.

Idk, I mean. I guess if you are including writers as gatekeepers, but then the term feels a little silly. Anyone can be a writer and self-publish, so is there really a gate being kept?

Perhaps it is just that gatekeeping has such a harsh and negative connotation and I don't really see that in these places.

 

[Queshire]

When we think of gatekeeping in literal terms, think of the medieval walled city with its gatekeepers whose job was to limit or control access to the city.

In modern day terms we can apply that term to so many professions, secretary’s, security guards and so on.

Every single person who works in media is working in a gatekeeping profession because they get to decide on what information the public get to consume.

Think of the newspaper editor who job is an important job, but it’s also a biased one. We all have conscious and unconscious biases, and newspapers are pretty much a prime example of this. Most news media leans politically either left or right and the tone of the journalism reflects this. The editor ensures this tone.

It’s the same in publishing but to a lesser extent. Editors are the main gatekeepers in that industry.

On representation - I think it’s relative. It’s only as important or relevant as an individual feels it is.

Gonna be honest here, I don't think you're using gatekeeping right.

 

[Finchbearer]

When you self publish, you are your own gatekeeper. Your limits are simply your own marketing abilities and whether you've written material the public wants to consume.

Oh, I was only responding to what you mentioned about ‘being your own gatekeeper’, which I suppose I agree with in the sense that generally authors themselves don’t want to be producing harmful material. If you can’t afford to bring in paid professionals and you DIY it, then the onus is on you and you alone as to whether your book hits the right mark or not.

 

[Finchbearer]

Gonna be honest here, I don't think you're using gatekeeping right.

It’d be far more helpful if you elaborated on that.

 

[Draco Roma]

Really though, isn’t that what a good editor does, points out where you can strengthen your writing, and not just the grammar but also the overall tone including pointing out things that could be taken offensively?

I really wish that was the case, but many editors have the same biases we authors do. They're probably not going to notice really problematic things because they, just like the authors, often are working off harmful tropes. There are big budget blockbuster movies that have these sorts of problems, and one would think that they would have the best editors around. I have personally been hurt badly by the portrayal of ASD in the media, and it's because some writers only follow the tropes and just assume it will be fine. Words and depictions can be really hurtful, and that's why people became sensitivity readers. I'm sure that most sensitivity readers hope that they don't find anything that hurts someone in a story. They're not telling you what you can or can't publish, they're telling you that what you said can really hurt people

 

[Finchbearer]

I really wish that was the case, but many editors have the same biases we authors do. They're probably not going to notice really problematic things because they, judt like the authors, often are working off harmful tropes. There are big budget blockbuster movies that have these sorts of problems, and one would think that they would have the best editors around. I have personally been hurt badly by the portrayal of ASD in the media, and it's because some writers only follow the tropes and just assume it will be fine. Words and depictions can be really hurtful, and that's why people became sensitivity readers. I'm sure that most sensitivity hope that they don't find anything that hurts someone in a story. They're not telling you what you can or can't publish, they're telling you that what you said can really hurt people

I feel like it’s probably a case of ‘not all editors are created equally’, just the same as not as sensitivity readers are either. But I’m sorry you’ve had those experiences. I am ND and it can be hurtful to feel misunderstood.

I am however in that camp of ‘I will happily disengage if I don’t like what’s being said, or otherwise I will say something.’ But that’s me, and we’re all different.

One of my all time favourite quotes is actually by a fictional character Don Draper from Mad Men, “If you don’t like what’s being said, change the conversation.”

 

[Queshire]

It’d be far more helpful if you elaborated on that.

Gatekeeping is more about community than access in my opinion. Go back to when the idea of a female author would get you laughed out of the room then yeah, that'd be gatekeeping, or if you get mad at someone just asking questions because anyone who was serious about X should know that already then that could serve as gatekeeping. It prevents access, but I think the core of it is that it makes it hard for someone to take part in whatever community. I don't think it's useful to extend it to security guards or just what is / is not said in general.

EDIT: And yes, the fact that I'm gatekeeping the term gatekeeping is not lost on me. =_=

 

[pmmg]

Well...the world is full of sensitive types. If they want to go down the road of sensitivity readers, they are welcome to that hell.

Since this thread is about Draco looking for people from Siberia to help him get a better feel for the culture, I hope he finds it, and doing research is not a bad thing. But...I'm not gonna stop writing the story if I cant find them. I'm just gonna make the best of.

 

[Fyri]

I feel like it’s probably a case of ‘not all editors are created equally’, just the same as not as sensitivity readers are either. But I’m sorry you’ve had those experiences. I am ND and it can be hurtful to feel misunderstood.

I am however in that camp of ‘I will happily disengage if I don’t like what’s being said, or otherwise I will say something.’ But that’s me, and we’re all different.

One of my all time favourite quotes is actually by a fictional character Don Draper from Mad Men, “If you don’t like what’s being said, change the conversation.”

This is a great attitude to have! It would also be nice if there were less instances where we wanted to change the conversation. I think with the use of consultants and #ownvoices stories, we are certainly walking toward a world where people are hurt less by media representations. I'd rather enjoy reading a book, than add it to my DNF or "bad reviews" pile. And I'd certainly like to avoid my book being tossed into those piles by people I hoped would enjoy them. ^_^

 

[Fyri]

Since this thread is about Draco looking for people from Siberia to help him get a better feel for the culture, I hope he finds it, and doing research is not a bad thing. But...I'm not gonna stop writing the story if I cant find them. I'm just gonna make the best of.

Absolutely!

 

[Draco Roma]

I am however in that camp of ‘I will happily disengage if I don’t like what’s being said, or otherwise I will say something.’ But that’s me, and we’re all different.

One of my all time favourite quotes is actually by a fictional character Don Draper from Mad Men, “If you don’t like what’s being said, change the conversation.”

This is a good perspective to have for mental health purposes. And sorry if I'm misinterpreting what you've been saying, but I'll flip the perspective on this to explain why finding consultants for the cultures I represent is important to me. Do any of us want to be the writer that people disengage with because they don't like what's being said, in particular how they are being represented? If a movie or a book or a tv show or whatever tries to depict X group/condition/identity, and all it does is use hurtful stereotypes, and people of that group disengage because they don't like what's being said, then the author(s) have in properly depicting that group/condition/identity

 

[Finchbearer]

This is a good perspective to have for mental health purposes. And sorry if I'm misinterpreting what you've been saying, but I'll flip the perspective on this to explain why finding consultants for the cultures I represent is important to me. Do any of us want to be the writer that people disengage with because they don't like what's being said, in particular how they are being represented? If a movie or a book or a tv show or whatever tries to depict X group/condition/identity, and all it does is use hurtful stereotypes, and people of that group disengage because they don't like what's being said, then the author(s) have in properly depicting that group/condition/identity

I can see that representation is important to you, and clearly you’re a person who cares deeply about these things. Hope you find what you’re looking for

 

[Finchbearer]

Gatekeeping is more about community than access in my opinion. Go back to when the idea of a female author would get you laughed out of the room then yeah, that'd be gatekeeping, or if you get mad at someone just asking questions because anyone who was serious about X should know that already then that could serve as gatekeeping. It prevents access, but I think the core of it is that it makes it hard for someone to take part in whatever community. I don't think it's useful to extend it to security guards or just what is / is not said in general.

EDIT: And yes, the fact that I'm gatekeeping the term gatekeeping is not lost on me. =_=

I would say that sounds like a form of gatekeeping absolutely, within a community context where there is discrimination and or bullying going on, but I don’t think that is the term as defined in media theory.

 

[skip.knox]

A question for the OP, Draco Roma

How are you going to judge the feedback you get from a cultural consultant?

The best course, it seems to me, is for a person to do their own research to the best of their ability. Learn as much as they can about Culture X, including variations within the culture, change over time, any contentious issues that have made their way into the literature. As part of that process, one begins to accumulate questions that the literature does not answer (varying opinions) or simply does not address.

Those are the questions to bring to a consultant. Coming to an area expert with a general request for general and open-ended help isn't going to be particularly helpful, isn't likely to get one to one's goal, and in any case is very likely to meet with either a polite refusal or a negotiation as to pay per hour. It's asking someone with a lifetime of experience and knowledge to contribute for free. A specific question, sure. Ongoing consultation? Not so much.

Finally, and I've rung this bell before, there's immense benefit in stumbling one's way. To draw a parallel, I can have a great story idea, even have great characters in mind, a plot, and all of it. I can at that point either write it myself or ask someone else to write it for me (or "collaborate" as in I say what I want and they do the writing). Either way, the book gets written, but the second path does not make me an author nor do I gain the benefit (and pain) of having gone through the process of writing a novel.

So it is with research. Those who ask others get answers. Those who do it themselves get experience and learn how to ask better questions. To be clear, this last is a general nostrum and is not directed at anyone specifically.

 

[Fyri]

I agree with most of what Skip.knox mentioned, and I'd like to add that it is also good for anyone to apply this to getting feedback in general!

As with seeking any kind of proofreader, you want to do as much as you can on your own. Proofread your own work. Don't hand your first draft to an editor or beta. Find and fix all the mistakes and issues you can on your own; give them a later draft. Do your best research on unfamiliar topics and get them as close to what you're going for as you can. Then seek feedback on what you are unsure of or what you can't figure out on your own. This also shows that you are serious about your work, which helps them take you seriously as well!

 

[Queshire]

Would it be better if we talked about this stuff in terms of anthropology? I mean, I know writing a story isn't as rigorous as an anthropological study, but you could do worse than looking at bastardizing some of its techniques.

 

[Draco Roma]

A question for the OP, Draco Roma

How are you going to judge the feedback you get from a cultural consultant?

The best course, it seems to me, is for a person to do their own research to the best of their ability. Learn as much as they can about Culture X, including variations within the culture, change over time, any contentious issues that have made their way into the literature. As part of that process, one begins to accumulate questions that the literature does not answer (varying opinions) or simply does not address.

Those are the questions to bring to a consultant. Coming to an area expert with a general request for general and open-ended help isn't going to be particularly helpful, isn't likely to get one to one's goal, and in any case is very likely to meet with either a polite refusal or a negotiation as to pay per hour. It's asking someone with a lifetime of experience and knowledge to contribute for free. A specific question, sure. Ongoing consultation? Not so much.

Finally, and I've rung this bell before, there's immense benefit in stumbling one's way. To draw a parallel, I can have a great story idea, even have great characters in mind, a plot, and all of it. I can at that point either write it myself or ask someone else to write it for me (or "collaborate" as in I say what I want and they do the writing). Either way, the book gets written, but the second path does not make me an author nor do I gain the benefit (and pain) of having gone through the process of writing a novel.

So it is with research. Those who ask others get answers. Those who do it themselves get experience and learn how to ask better questions. To be clear, this last is a general nostrum and is not directed at anyone specifically.

Just to make sure I understand you, it sounds like you're suggestingI should do my own research first, and then consult experts/people with the lived experience after the research/in the draft stage. Is that accurate?