Are classical tropes overdone?

[Orilindë]

Since I've started taking up fantasy writing, I've been watching and reading many related content on YouTube and Google. Now, I'm starting to see some recommendations of videos on topics that state that traditional tropes are overdone. I've only seen a few such as this one. But it made me wonder if these tropes mentioned in the video are overdone (according to this one creator). What is meant to be used instead?

Is constantly developing unique tropes mandatory to writing more interesting fantasy novels? What are your thoughts on this? Personally, I thought that many stories centred around classical tropes that have been around for a long time.

 

[pmmg]

No. Take all the advice on tropes and toss it someplace where it will never be seen again.

Write the story inside of you.

 

[Finchbearer]

Yay a trope thread!

I recently read a blog post that came up with some funny and overused ones including dormant dragons (until now), dagger (but not sword) wielding female characters, faeries not fairies, oh and by the way they’re ripped, and finally princesses who are very bad at embroidery.

 

[pmmg]

I'll just go back to being dormant.

 

[Finchbearer]

I’m reading a book where lots of dragons are coming out of dormancy. Basically if it’s a good story, I be reading it.

 

[Orilindë]

what are some recent really cool original tropes you’ve encountered?

 

[Finchbearer]

I’m not sure that something considered ‘original’ could be a ‘trope’, because often something becomes a trope when it gets overused, or when it becomes a stalwart of a genre. There’s also the issue of derivative work, like the deluge of vampire romances since Twilight came out, and the flurry of fae romantasy since Sarah J Maas brought out her series.

I don’t care about tropes as long as the story is good and the writing voice is also keeping me engaged. I don’t want my own writing to feel too derivative, but I want to aim for that fantasy feel, so there has to be a pushing of boundaries whilst celebrating well known tropes too, for me and for my own writing.

 

[pmmg]

Yeah....for the remainder of my replies, I would just say, read my first post... but that is no fun

But...Finch has got that right. It cant be a trope if its original. And finding something truly original is going to be really hard. Probably the best you can do is see a different take on a trend and write about that, at least until someone more well read says...hey, that's just like in.... But, you know, most audiences wont know. They just wait for the movie version

Many patterns repeat, farm boy to hero, hidden royalty, child of prophecy.... It's not really the concept that is bad. Its poor execution. These stories repeat, because they resonate, and let us imagine it for ourselves. Tropes is a fancy word for snobby writer types, they don't matter to consumers. Consumers just want to believe. (Course, if you do it badly, then you might hear Tropes thrown at you like you should have known better.)

 

[Incanus]

This is an interesting issue, and it can be a bit complex, at least for me.

pmmg makes a good point in that it probably isn’t something to be overly worried about. For one thing, tropes play virtually no part in my decision to read books. Full of tropes, or trope-less, I don’t care either way.

On the other hand, I’m working on a secondary-world epic fantasy story that avoids a goodly amount of tropes, or so I believe. With exceptions. I’m actually using a large-scale trope that is well known in sci-fi, but I’m applying it to my fantasy story. As far as I know, I’ve not seen this used in epic fantasy before.

Here are some common items that I am NOT including in my story:

Dark Lord(s)
Dragon(s)
Elves – Dwarves – Halflings – Orcs (I have humans and some custom creatures)
Quest/Journey across the map (though I have some smaller ‘missions’)
Kings – Queens – Princes – Princesses – nobility in general
Active deities


I have a kind of magic system of sorts, but it might be better termed a ‘magic allegory’.

I am using maps and glossaries, but I haven’t decided what to include with the story when it’s done. There are in-story reasons to keep this to a minimum.

 

[Penpilot]

When it comes to writing, whenever someone states that you can't do something, 99% of the time you can tack the following to the end.

"... umm... unless it's done well."

Is it OK to use adverbs? No... umm... unless it's done well.
Is it OK to use Trope-X? No... umm... unless it's done well.

Is it OK if I don't use quotes? No... umm... unless it's done well. (See Cormac MaCarthy)

I surmise that one of the top things that prevents many people from writing is worrying too much about if something has been overdone.

What's the saying? It is easier to beg forgiveness than to seek permission. For me, I'd rather make mistakes on my own terms and learn from them than blindly follow.

 

[Jackarandajam]

1. Too many genre-common tropes piled up (If your story is exactly the top 10 tropes in fantasy you may want to consider mixing it up a little).

2. A small handful of tropes exist to describe bad writing, avoid those (Mary Sue/Marty Stu, Deus Ex Machina or Author Insert for examples). While I'm sure I'll generate some discussion on that bold assertion, I would suggest that the likelihood of writing a good story despite them is low enough that they're best avoided.

3. Trying too hard to avoid them. I blame some of the baffling cinematic plot-contortionism I've been seeing come out of Hollywood on this. Tropes are "common story tools", and common tropes are mostly just beloved tools. There are a few that make me roll my eyes, sure, but the set of tropes I don't like are almost certainly a completely different set than the ones you don't.

 

[Incanus]

1. Too many genre-common tropes piled up (If your story is exactly the top 10 tropes in fantasy you may want to consider mixing it up a little).

2. A small handful of tropes exist to describe bad writing, avoid those (Mary Sue/Marty Stu, Deus Ex Machina or Author Insert for examples). While I'm sure I'll generate some discussion on that bold assertion, I would suggest that the likelihood of writing a good story despite them is low enough that they're best avoided.

3. Trying too hard to avoid them. I blame some of the baffling cinematic plot-contortionism I've been seeing come out of Hollywood on this. Tropes are "common story tools", and common tropes are mostly just beloved tools. There are a few that make me roll my eyes, sure, but the set of tropes I don't like are almost certainly a completely different set than the ones you don't.

The first two items here make good sense. I more or less follow those.

The third item--I can't think of having seen this in anything, books or movies. Not that it hasn't occurred. I'm not sure how I could identify a lack of something like this though. In my case, the tropes I'm not using are not because I don't like them. I'm just not using them.

 

[Renè Williams]

Any Tropes that is overdone is a Cliche...nuff said

 

[Renè Williams]

This is an interesting issue, and it can be a bit complex, at least for me.

pmmg makes a good point in that it probably isn’t something to be overly worried about. For one thing, tropes play virtually no part in my decision to read books. Full of tropes, or trope-less, I don’t care either way.

On the other hand, I’m working on a secondary-world epic fantasy story that avoids a goodly amount of tropes, or so I believe. With exceptions. I’m actually using a large-scale trope that is well known in sci-fi, but I’m applying it to my fantasy story. As far as I know, I’ve not seen this used in epic fantasy before.

Here are some common items that I am NOT including in my story:

Dark Lord(s)
Dragon(s)
Elves – Dwarves – Halflings – Orcs (I have humans and some custom creatures)
Quest/Journey across the map (though I have some smaller ‘missions’)
Kings – Queens – Princes – Princesses – nobility in general
Active deities


I have a kind of magic system of sorts, but it might be better termed a ‘magic allegory’.

I am using maps and glossaries, but I haven’t decided what to include with the story when it’s done. There are in-story reasons to keep this to a minimum.

But you could subvert all of these to great effect with tropes sooooo.........hahahaha

 

[Renè Williams]

1. Too many genre-common tropes piled up (If your story is exactly the top 10 tropes in fantasy you may want to consider mixing it up a little).

2. A small handful of tropes exist to describe bad writing, avoid those (Mary Sue/Marty Stu, Deus Ex Machina or Author Insert for examples). While I'm sure I'll generate some discussion on that bold assertion, I would suggest that the likelihood of writing a good story despite them is low enough that they're best avoided.

3. Trying too hard to avoid them. I blame some of the baffling cinematic plot-contortionism I've been seeing come out of Hollywood on this. Tropes are "common story tools", and common tropes are mostly just beloved tools. There are a few that make me roll my eyes, sure, but the set of tropes I don't like are almost certainly a completely different set than the ones you don't.

If your story contains the top ten tropes, you better be dissecting or subverting 80% of them
A small handful of trorpes blah blah blah. Bad writing doesn't sell, or get read, soooooooooooooo.....
Trying to hard to avoid them.
Nah for real though this is a real thing, Tropes exist because theyre useful. If you avoid using Guns in the Age of Guns and Bombs, you will die. Or, what you created will.

 

[Jackarandajam]

The first two items here make good sense. I more or less follow those.

The third item--I can't think of having seen this in anything, books or movies. Not that it hasn't occurred. I'm not sure how I could identify a lack of something like this though. In my case, the tropes I'm not using are not because I don't like them. I'm just not using them.

On the subject of character tropes, it's almost impossible to subvert them because the subversion so quickly becomes a trope in itself. The "damsel -NOT- in distress" is a trope subversion, for instance.
On plot trope subversion, I humbly propose The Last Jedi and The Rise Of Skywalker as exhibit A & A.5:

"A smuggler is going to help them out despite being a piratey character? Oh. No."

"The hero and the villain are finally joining forces to defeat the evil! Oh. No."

"The beloved character is going to sacrifice themselves for the common good in a selfless act?!? Oh. No."

"Headstrong pilot is actually going to pull off a crazy plan? Oh. No."

"Aging matriarch is going to sacrifice herself and pass the crown to the next generation? Oh. No."

"The book holds... Oh. No."

"Luke is gonna... Oh. No."

"Han is gonna... Oh. No."

No offense to anyone who liked these movies, but I feel like they were perfect examples of prioritizing subverting expectations (AKA subverting beloved tropes) over following thousand-year-old good-human-storytelling practices. So many useless, non-plot-driving things in these movies. The movies would be 15 minutes long each if everything was taken out that was a meaningless diversion.

Hopefully I didn't just derail the thread on opinions about those movies.

Anyway, I think the over (I emphasize OVER) attempt to subvert tropes results in a story that has some beginningy things at the beginning, some endy things at the end, and a lot of frustrating, disappointing stuff in between.

I do want to emphasize that there is nothing wrong with subverting tropes in theory, and sometimes it can be very refreshing and pleasantly unexpected, but giving people "something they've never seen before" successfully is usually the masterful use of tropes, not the subversion of them.

They exist for a reason. We created them, and our insatiability for some of them made them common. That isn't an inherently bad thing.

 

[Jackarandajam]

Think of a trope as "a storytelling device that people at some point really enjoyed."
Why throw all those out?
Some of them aren't in fashion because of culture or recent overuse, but the rest of them are "storytelling devices that people really enjoy."
Like the three act structure, they're supposed to be helpful guides, not some box we must immediately kick the walls out of if we're not hacks.

 

[skip.knox]

>What is meant to be used instead?
My first reaction to this question was to seize upon the passive voice. What is meant to be used ... who is doing the meaning here? I'm picturing some secret society, Illuminati-like, judging all writing and declaring what ought to be used and what ought not to be used.

All right, I'm mocking a bit. But whenever you find yourself wondering what it is you ought to be doing, just who exactly it is you think is doing the telling.

Fact is, there is no such entity or body or group or whatever. Fact is, there are a thousand voices, all chirping something slightly different, all earnestly trying to tell you what to do.

That said, I do get it. To a new author, writing isn't just a mystery, it's a thousand mysteries. In a sea of possibilities, sometimes we long for a direction. Any direction! Alas, all that can be usefully suggested is to do what feels right to you, including following whatever advice you read here on Mythic Scribes. Even when *nothing* feels right to you. It's a wretched business and all you can do is to feel your way along. Skating on quicksand is easier.

 

[Prince of Spires]

Just to be helpful, I'm going to answer the question of "Are classical tropes overdone?" with yes and no...

You're welcome.

On a slightly more serious note I would say that it can be useful to be aware of tropes.

To kick it off, remember that anything done well stops being a cliche. If you write a great hero's journey type story, then people will admire the story and not care too much about the trope you used. Also, there will always be new readers who haven't seen the trope used before. Eragon was very much a trope based story. They just ooze off the page. However, the target audience (YA fantasy readers) didn't care. 16 year olds haven't seen that many stories, so for them they are new. And then it's a good execution of those tropes.

The other thing is that it very much depends on the reader. Some readers are actively looking for certain tropes. You will find Romance readers who only read MM Dark Enemies to Lovers Werewolf Shapeshifters Romance stories. And they'll read them by the hundred, and if the tales deviate too much from the expected trope they'll complain. And then you have other readers who just want a good fantasy story and don't care for the tropes, as long as it's an interesting and well told tale.

You can't please both of those groups at the same time. So don't try. Just write the story you want to write and enjoy the ride.

Another point is that the definition given by Meg LaTorre in that linked Youtube video is so broad, that almost anything that has been used more than once in a story can be called a trope. By being that broad, the whole term stops being useful. If everything is a trope, then you can't use it for anything.

Lastly, the more I write and read indie and unpublished authors, the more I'm becoming of the opinion that plot is actually the hardest part to get right. Yes, when people start out, getting readable sentences on the page is a challenge, but most figure that out fairly quickly. Getting a scene right is a bit harder, but that's also manageabl. However, getting a whole novel to make sense and build tension correctly and have a satisfying climax and all that is one of the hardest, if not the hardest, part of righting to get right. There are so many moving pieces in 100k words, and getting 20-40 chapters to lead to somewhere is hard.

With that in mind, tropes can help a lot, especially beginning writers. If you know you're writing a Farmboy to prophesied hero type Hero's Journey story, then you can grab three or four similar tales and look at the plot structure and use that in your tale. It will make for a much better story in the vast majority of cases compared to just writing whatever comes to mind.

 

[Mad Swede]

Since I've started taking up fantasy writing, I've been watching and reading many related content on YouTube and Google. Now, I'm starting to see some recommendations of videos on topics that state that traditional tropes are overdone. I've only seen a few such as this one. But it made me wonder if these tropes mentioned in the video are overdone (according to this one creator). What is meant to be used instead?

Is constantly developing unique tropes mandatory to writing more interesting fantasy novels? What are your thoughts on this? Personally, I thought that many stories centred around classical tropes that have been around for a long time.

OK, we'll start with some definitions.

A literary trope is, in its original meaning, the use of figurative language, via word, phrase or an image, for artistic effect such as using a figure of speech. Literary tropes have also come to mean commonly recurring or overused literary and rhetorical devices, motifs or clichés in creative works.

So the advice you got in that video seems to mean using a trope in its original meaning as a way of avoiding clichés in the form of common literary and rhetorical devices. In other words, write good prose in a story with a good plot, good pacing, good characterisation and good dialogue. Which is, to be honest, the key to getting picked up for publication.

So should you avoid all those commonly recurring or overused literary and rhetorical devices, motifs or clichés? No. You can write a story which is stuffed full of all these and still produce a good story. The proof of the pudding is David and Leigh Eddings bestselling series The Belgariad. However, as that series shows, you still need a decent plot, good pacing, good dialogue and and good characterisation.

Basically, learn to write well - and then practice your writing. Write, write, write.