Avoiding Racist Implications

[Jamber]

There's always that interesting moment in LOTR (the film version -- I haven't read the books in a long time) when Saruman is telling his army how the Rohirrim stole their lands and drove them into the hills. It's meant to be Saruman using his powers of persuasion to incite hatred, but it opens a parallel (and unacknowledged) story: that underneath the present rule is an older usurped one.

Not sure this gives you any ideas, but I always found the idea fascinating.

 

[advait98]

I'm not sure I understand.

If you're searching for a way to avoid your black elves seeming evil for no reason and give them a reason to fight the light elves... It should definitely not look like the difference in skin tone is the reason for their hatred. There are a lot of other ways that can happen. Individuals can spark a full-fledged animosity between two ethnic groups. A misconstrued accident maybe, that turned the groups against each other. Certain legends which have sparked feuds between them for all eternity... There are many reasons two groups can be against each other, the real world is a gold mine for conflicts too, I should imagine... Bah, this is all off the top of my head, I'm sure you have thought of better, that is, if this is the issue.

If you're trying to avoid your black elves looking too much like the stereotypical crazy African, well I don't think that matters. Black and white have always been the grounds of evil and good and I don't think the real world stereotypes can figure into this.

Frankly, I'm not sure whether I've addressed your problems (I always had trouble understanding certain questions), but if I have, I hope you find them satisfactory.

 

[Ireth]

I'm not sure I understand.

If you're searching for a way to avoid your black elves seeming evil for no reason and give them a reason to fight the light elves... there seem to be a lot of ways that can happen. Individuals can spark a full-fledged animosity between two ethnic groups. A misconstrued accident maybe, that turned the groups against each other. Certain legends which have sparked feuds between them for all eternity... Bah, this is all off the top of my head, I'm sure you have thought of better, that is, if this is the issue.

If you're trying to avoid your black elves looking too much like the stereotypical crazy African, well I don't think that matters. Black and white have always been the grounds of evil and good and I don't think the real world stereotypes can figure into this.

Frankly, I'm not sure whether I've addressed your problems (I always had trouble understanding certain questions), but if I have, I hope you find them satisfactory.

Well, the roots of the conflict between them, at least in this instance, are pretty straightforward: these particular black elves are sent through a gateway between their homeland, Svartalfheimr, and the land of Faerie, to attack a human settlement and enslave anyone they find. The light elves are friends of the humans in the settlement, and they have also temporarily allied themselves with the normally-neutral Fae to face the common threat. But that isn't the problem, it's the implications of skin colors I'm worried about.

 

[Feo Takahari]

At the risk of completely missing the point, why do you need to mimic the old stories? I can't see any reason why your evil elves can't be green-skinned or blue-skinned or any-skinned you want.

(Though really, I think Glutton had the right of it--just write your enemy elves as human beings--er, elven beings--rather than as caricatures, and the rest will take care of itself.)

 

[Ireth]

At the risk of completely missing the point, why do you need to mimic the old stories? I can't see any reason why your evil elves can't be green-skinned or blue-skinned or any-skinned you want.

(Though really, I think Glutton had the right of it--just write your enemy elves as human beings--er, elven beings--rather than as caricatures, and the rest will take care of itself.)

It's really a matter of *want*, not *need*, but I do see your point. ^^

 

[Steerpike]

It's really a matter of *want*, not *need*, but I do see your point. ^^

Yes, if your interest is is the old myths, then I can understand why you want to stay true to them. Also, it will impact readers. If readers are interested in your stories because they like the old myths as well, and you're true to everything except your evil elves are suddenly blue, it will seem silly, in my opinion. I suspect a lot of readers would feel that way if they were attracted to the story out in part out of interest in the underlying mythology you are using.

 

[Anders Ämting]

I've discovered an issue with the enemy hordes in my latest project. They're svartalfar, or black elves, from Norse mythology; their enemies are ljosalfar, or light elves, as well as Fae and humans. Much like in Tolkien's books, the light elves are fair-skinned and beautiful, while the black elves, analogous to orcs, are black-skinned and misshapen. The primary villain is (tentatively, somehow) half light elf and half black elf (I guess that'd make her a grey elf?), and her right-hand man is also her half-brother, a light elf bound under oath to serve her.

I don't have as much of a problem with my half-breed villain, or her lieutenant being of a race that is probably seen as Always Lawful Good -- it's the hordes of mooks I take issue with. Even Tolkien was uncomfortable with the idea of orcs being Always Chaotic Evil, and I find myself shying away from that with my black elves as well. But the fact remains that they fundamentally oppose the light elves, they're being ordered to kill the people of Faerie and conquer the land, and they're nothing more than sword fodder. What can I do with this?

Well... how about not making them Always Chaotic Evil villain stereotypes? Is there any reason they need to be? Is there a reason they can't be, you know, just people who happens to be on the other side of the conflict?

I mean, maybe they have an opressive goverment and an unpleasant ideology, and maybe their cultural values are very different, but do they have to be intrinsically evil as a race? What purpose does that even serve?

I think your translation is too literal. Svartalvar are dark elves, not black. I see that 'svart' translated as 'swarthy' and picture them more like coal miners, leathery and stained from working underground, than like black beings.

Actually, "svart" literally means black in Icelandic, Swedish and Norwegian, and has similar words in related languages. (Danish "sort" and German "schwarz.") It refers both to the color black and to black people.

Well, the roots of the conflict between them, at least in this instance, are pretty straightforward: these particular black elves are sent through a gateway between their homeland, Svartalfheimr, and the land of Faerie, to attack a human settlement and enslave anyone they find. The light elves are friends of the humans in the settlement, and they have also temporarily allied themselves with the normally-neutral Fae to face the common threat. But that isn't the problem, it's the implications of skin colors I'm worried about.

Well, that's why you don't write an entire race of dark-skinned people as intrinsically evil monsters.

I mean, sure, Tolkien kinda got away with it, but I've always considered that to be one of the weakest parts of his writing: That there are no orc women or orc babies or orc farmers, and that they don't seem to have an actual culture that doesn't involve dressing in spiky armors and murdering people.

There is nothing wrong with saying: "These guys all have black skin", provided they are portrayed as morally varied individuals who are just trying to do what is right in their minds, even if that happens to include the occasional genocidal war or whatever. You can have them be cruel and warlike, as long as they'e not just that.

It's when you go: "These guys all have black skins and all of them are objectively evil" that you may have a problem on your hands. Not because you are actually trying to get some sort of racist sentiments across, but simply because that concept is pretty outdated and in itself sorta offensive to our modern sensitivites.

(For that matter, if you look at norse mythology, it's not like there were a clear team of good guys and bad guys respectively. The Aesir could be right bastards at time, and while the giants were "the enemy", they weren't that much different - they threw parties, got married, honored agreements, etc.)

 

[Ireth]

Well... how about not making them Always Chaotic Evil villain stereotypes? Is there any reason they need to be? Is there a reason they can't be, you know, just people who happens to be on the other side of the conflict?

Well, they're basically stand-ins for orcs. This story is an adaptation of an RP that's a crossover with LOTR, but then I decided I really liked a certain character and his arc, so I decided to reshape the story into something I could publish without getting sued.

Well, that's why you don't write an entire race of dark-skinned people as intrinsically evil monsters.

I mean, sure, Tolkien kinda got away with it, but I've always considered that to be one of the weakest parts of his writing: That there are no orc women or orc babies or orc farmers, and that they don't seem to have an actual culture that doesn't involve dressing in spiky armors and murdering people.

Just because they weren't seen doesn't mean they weren't there. Mordor had whole fields of fertile farmland used to feed his human servants, which the characters who travelled through there never got to see, but that doesn't negate their existence. Same with dwarf women, and by extension, orc women and children too. Orcs make babies just like humans and elves do, so there HAVE to be women somewhere.

There is nothing wrong with saying: "These guys all have black skin", provided they are portrayed as morally varied individuals who are just trying to do what is right in their minds, even if that happens to include the occasional genocidal war or whatever. You can have them be cruel and warlike, as long as they'e not just that.

It's when you go: "These guys all have black skins and all of them are objectively evil" that you may have a problem on your hands. Not because you are actually trying to get some sort of racist sentiments across, but simply because that concept is pretty outdated and in itself sorta offensive to our modern sensitivites.

(For that matter, if you look at norse mythology, it's not like there were a clear team of good guys and bad guys respectively. The Aesir could be right bastards at time, and while the giants were "the enemy", they weren't that much different - they threw parties, got married, honored agreements, etc.)

Very good points. ^^

 

[brokethepoint]

Well, the roots of the conflict between them, at least in this instance, are pretty straightforward: these particular black elves are sent through a gateway between their homeland, Svartalfheimr, and the land of Faerie, to attack a human settlement and enslave anyone they find. The light elves are friends of the humans in the settlement, and they have also temporarily allied themselves with the normally-neutral Fae to face the common threat. But that isn't the problem, it's the implications of skin colors I'm worried about.

I would lean more toward lawful then chaotic. I am getting the impression they are organized, if you look at most cultures that have had large scale slavery they tend to be large, organized and advanced. They utilize slavery to perform tasks that they have determined to be menial.

Now when you look at the dark elves, where are they in the overall picture. Are they the masters, or just another tier in the hierarchy. How are the slaves treated, can they earn or buy their freedom like you could with the Roman Empire? While slavery is wrong that does not necessitate the perpetrators as being innately evil.

While in fantasy you do not need to follow the same things that apply, but if you look at skin color it is based on geographic region and the absorption of vitamin D. Generally the colder and cloudier the climate the lighter the skin color, the hotter climate with clear skies tend to have darker skin color.

 

[Jabrosky]

While we're on the subject on unfortunate racial implications in our stories...

I have in the works a short story about a former Texan sheriff who joins the cause of an African kingdom resisting British invaders. At the moment he's more or less a 19th century Captain Ersatz for Robert E. Howard's Solomon Kane, but I hope to portray the African characters more sympathetically than the ones in Howard's stories (the sheriff even gets an African girlfriend to fight alongside him). However, I still wonder if having a white guy fight on behalf of black people could come across as a stereotypical "mighty condescending white savior".

 

[Feo Takahari]

While we're on the subject on unfortunate racial implications in our stories...

I have in the works a short story about a former Texan sheriff who joins the cause of an African kingdom resisting British invaders. At the moment he's more or less a 19th century Captain Ersatz for Robert E. Howard's Solomon Kane, but I hope to portray the African characters more sympathetically than the ones in Howard's stories (the sheriff even gets an African girlfriend to fight alongside him). However, I still wonder if having a white guy fight on behalf of black people could come across as a stereotypical "mighty condescending white savior".

Ultimately, it's an issue of power--is the one guy who's white mysteriously more powerful than every single black person? (In general, I'm not that fond of protagonists who completely dominate the world around them--in a sufficiently large conflict, the protagonist should be one of many people, contributing to the fight, but not doing everything himself.)

 

[Nihal]

My default reaction is to think that yes, it's condescending. But I guess it's bias. It's how you write it that matters.

It's not so unbelievable to have a foreigner participating in a war that's not about him. You can take Giuseppe Garibaldi as an example. He was an italian revolutionary who sailed to Brazil and ended fighting in a brazilian war that could be called The War of Tatters, he even took a brazilian wife during this time, the awesome (yes, I love this story ;x) Anita Garibaldi. They lost this war. But it wasn't the end, Garibaldi kept fighting in random wars around the world as he did before meeting her, now with Anita by his side.

 

[Jabrosky]

Ultimately, it's an issue of power--is the one guy who's white mysteriously more powerful than every single black person? (In general, I'm not that fond of protagonists who completely dominate the world around them--in a sufficiently large conflict, the protagonist should be one of many people, contributing to the fight, but not doing everything himself.)

I'm pretty much writing the story as I go, with only very sparse mental outlining, so I can't really answer that yet. He does start out the only character on the Africans' side with firearms, but they're only pistols.