Blank Heros

[Malakota]

I have been writing a story for a while now, new world, creatures, gods ext. However I find that when I write the characters of the story, I give them fulfilling personalities but am vague on their physical characteristics. I also use and original naming method to further neutralize the characters. This was an intentional idea, as I like to believe that this allow readers to identify with them more. Possibly allowing any reader to pick up the story and imagine themselves in the characters place. I do sometimes mention genders and other aspecs of the characters, hight, body type, hair length. But I really shy away from skin, hair, and eye color for most of them. Does anyone else do this and do you think it will help the readers connect more with the characters?

 

[pmmg]

I do not do this, and my first inclination is this would not help me identify more. I can see this having the opposite effect of giving me nothing concrete to connect me to it.

But...how could I know. Everything works for some and not for others. Maybe this is one of those.

Personally, I define most of my characters...least so far. But I dont really dwell on them a lot. If you missed the description early on, you might not remember them later in the tale.

 

[Queshire]

I don't do it a lot myself (on purpose at least,) but it sounds good to me. Over in video game land many of the silent protagonists are silent just for that reason. They can't really avoid giving their characters a look because it's a visual medium, but one of the reasons characters like Link rarely do more than silently nod when talking with an NPC is so that the players can layer their own thoughts & motivations over the character they're controlling.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

No, and let me tell you why. Leaving out characters' descriptions is a very common tactic in emerging writers, very much for the reasons you say, but it doesn't work. The vast majority of readers, instead of seeing themselves represented and feeling seen, feel invisible because no description leaves the cast open to the default setting of the straight, white, hetero, cis, male. Everyone else gets left on the roadside.

Here's a TED Talk on the danger of not reaching beyond the common narrative to reach... basically anyone outside the default setting. She describes it more eloquently than I can in text.

The danger of a single story

And another. You may begin to sense a theme.
Alternate Visions: Some Musings on Diversity in SF

And here's the first step in learning how to fix it.
https://writingwithcolor.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F94223998982
Good luck and godspeed. You're at the start of your next great adventure, and we'll be here to cheer you on.

 

[Foxkeyes]

Some of my characters are a talking stick and a cat that walks on two legs, so, no need for detailed descriptions.,

One way to get around detailed descriptions is to drop a few hints about the character's demographic/environment. This will suggest a description and trigger images in the reader's mind.

 

[BearBear]

I have been writing a story for a while now, new world, creatures, gods ext. However I find that when I write the characters of the story, I give them fulfilling personalities but am vague on their physical characteristics. I also use and original naming method to further neutralize the characters. This was an intentional idea, as I like to believe that this allow readers to identify with them more. Possibly allowing any reader to pick up the story and imagine themselves in the characters place. I do sometimes mention genders and other aspecs of the characters, hight, body type, hair length. But I really shy away from skin, hair, and eye color for most of them. Does anyone else do this and do you think it will help the readers connect more with the characters?

In the first book, it was me. But after that for the first few books after that, I did't describe the main 1st person or other characters that could be the reader (me) or they'd all be the same. But giving them attributes I don't have also didn't sit right.

I have no idea if this is ok, it's just what I wanted.

 

[Rexenm]

I include characters idiosyncrasies, and cultural idioms, as differences, in my emotional portrayal of scene. I suppose because I second guess myself. I see it through to the end with description, sometimes. I also believe that in writing, there is a level to reach, that it is much up to individual perspective. That is why I’m a writer.

 

[Mad Swede]

No, never. What does vary is when in the story the characters are described. The reason that varies is because I write mostly in close third person and so unless the character concerned walks past a mirror they won't usually think very much about their appearance. So their description has to come from other characters and there has to be a reason for those other characters to be thinking in those terms. It's those reasons which determine what part of the character concerned get described.

 

[Devor]

What your describing probably will not work. Sometimes the reader insert thing works in romance. The main female character is unassertive, and just kind of experiences everything, all the wooing and seduction and whatnot.

But it's the character's broad lack of agency and rich but generalized internal voice which creates that affect.

The everyman character works in video games because the player controls the action. In a novel, whenever your MC makes decisions, you're going to break the effect, because the readers will think to themselves, "That's not what I would do."

Instead, readers want to understand the character who did make that decision. Weakening the details of that character is going to weaken the novel.

That's in addition to the diversity issues A. E. Lowan mentions above. The "everyman" character is just another way of not including a diverse character.

 

[Malakota]

No, and let me tell you why. Leaving out characters' descriptions is a very common tactic in emerging writers, very much for the reasons you say, but it doesn't work. The vast majority of readers, instead of seeing themselves represented and feeling seen, feel invisible because no description leaves the cast open to the default setting of the straight, white, hetero, cis, male. Everyone else gets left on the roadside.

Here's a TED Talk on the danger of not reaching beyond the common narrative to reach... basically anyone outside the default setting. She describes it more eloquently than I can in text.

The danger of a single story

And another. You may begin to sense a theme.
Alternate Visions: Some Musings on Diversity in SF

And here's the first step in learning how to fix it.
https://writingwithcolor.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F94223998982
Good luck and godspeed. You're at the start of your next great adventure, and we'll be here to cheer you on.

Thank for your feedback and the sources that you offered, they were quite insightful. I suppose that I should further explain that in the realm of this story, the people are relatively new to the land in comparison to some of the other creatures that inhabit the world and have not yet left their place of origin. I feel that I have purposefully left out elements like skin color because focusing on character personality was a more fitting way to connect to readers. As a person of color myself, with a people that very rarely are represented in media, I fell like I can connect deeper with characters that are more physically vague. In the very few instances that the people of my culture are in the media, they are greatly misrepresented to a few offensive stereotypes. Personally, the incorrect portrayal of my people makes me feel more invisible than having no representation at all. My aim is to be able to be sensitive to those like me and otherwise, that want to feel like they can be part of a great adventure.
But I digress. If you would not mind sharing, I would like to know more about your process for building characters. I see that you three have build a vibrant world with many characters. I would like to know more about how you placed them all togther.

 

[Malakota]

No, never. What does vary is when in the story the characters are described. The reason that varies is because I write mostly in close third person and so unless the character concerned walks past a mirror they won't usually think very much about their appearance. So their description has to come from other characters and there has to be a reason for those other characters to be thinking in those terms. It's those reasons which determine what part of the character concerned get described.

Thank you for the feedback.

 

[Malakota]

What your describing probably will not work. Sometimes the reader insert thing works in romance. The main female character is unassertive, and just kind of experiences everything, all the wooing and seduction and whatnot.

But it's the character's broad lack of agency and rich but generalized internal voice which creates that affect.

The everyman character works in video games because the player controls the action. In a novel, whenever your MC makes decisions, you're going to break the effect, because the readers will think to themselves, "That's not what I would do."

Instead, readers want to understand the character who did make that decision. Weakening the details of that character is going to weaken the novel.

That's in addition to the diversity issues A. E. Lowan mentions above. The "everyman" character is just another way of not including a diverse character.

Not sure about the romance novel stuff. For the most part I avoid skin color but give the reader a lot as to who the MC is a person. The reader is giving introspection to the thoughts of the MC and are able to see this line of thinking. Giving the reader of his view of the world in front of him.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

But I digress. If you would not mind sharing, I would like to know more about your process for building characters. I see that you three have build a vibrant world with many characters. I would like to know more about how you placed them all togther.

It starts with personalities and a question: Does this character need to be white? Male? Hetero? Cis? abled? Usually the answer is no, they don't, and since we write urban fantasy with the philosophy that it really does need to be urban (Chicago So White, anyone?) our cast diversifies pretty fast.

So fast that our first book, Faerie Rising, entirely lacks a male character who is straight, white, cis, and abled. Whoops.

At the start it's that simple. Once set on a course the homework begins, as we are writers and we do homework for a living. Sites like Writing With Color are invaluable to breaking stereotypes that we all carry with us into the world. We listen to them carefully, we fix our mistakes as we move forward, and we are open to doing better when we learn better. We also have a long-running series with about 500 named series characters planned, so there is a lot of room to grow. We learned early to not assume knowledge that isn't ours, to question, to listen, to learn, to be respectful and to strive for kindness, always, which is just good humaning, in my opinion.

It isn't easy to write beyond the common narrative. It's common because it's comfortable, but it really only benefits a small portion of readers. Everyone deserves to be the hero sometimes. In kids it's the silver bullet to self-esteem, and in adults it's validation of their existence and experiences. I know, as someone who is female, LGBTQ, fat, middle-aged, disabled, and autistic, it is terribly hard to find myself in the media I consume, so the three of us create heroes for ourselves and for the readers out there like us. And maybe someday we'll be a part of the common narrative, too.

 

[pmmg]

Thank for your feedback and the sources that you offered, they were quite insightful. I suppose that I should further explain that in the realm of this story, the people are relatively new to the land in comparison to some of the other creatures that inhabit the world and have not yet left their place of origin. I feel that I have purposefully left out elements like skin color because focusing on character personality was a more fitting way to connect to readers. As a person of color myself, with a people that very rarely are represented in media, I fell like I can connect deeper with characters that are more physically vague. In the very few instances that the people of my culture are in the media, they are greatly misrepresented to a few offensive stereotypes. Personally, the incorrect portrayal of my people makes me feel more invisible than having no representation at all. My aim is to be able to be sensitive to those like me and otherwise, that want to feel like they can be part of a great adventure.

After reading this, I feel I must ask, why are you writing to be vague, and not writing with character who match whatever your skin tone happens to be?

My sense of this is still something along the lines of, the author is trying to be cute, and have something without having to state it. I think I would sniff this out, and wonder why they were not just up front about it.

 

[Queshire]

Setting aside everything else it is a fascinating idea from the perspective of a writer's craft. How much can you cut away and still have a story? Do I really need to know that character's eye color? Or just how jade like that beauty's skin is?

In animation there is a common piece of advice that says that ideally your characters should be instantly recognizable just from their silhouette. Think of the Simpsons, Family Guy, hell, even Scooby Doo or the Jetsons. If you only saw the silhouettes of the main characters chances are good that you could still recognize them at a glance.

Of course, we don't work in a visual medium, but the 'silhouette' could be something along the line of signature traits. If you describe the party's wizard as tall as an elf with a build that looks like he was stretched out as a kid and constantly wearing a heavy leather coat then I don't really need to know what color his skin is. My imagination will fill in the blanks on its own.

Admittedly relying on the audience's imagination to fill in the blanks does mean that the character will be left open to an preconceptions the audience brings with them like Lowan said, but....

 

[D. Gray Warrior]

I often don't really know what my own protagonists look like beyond a few vague traits (like hair color, a notable article of clothing such as glasses or a coat.) Often, I only have a vague image of their appearance, at best.

I prefer to focus on their personality and role in the story, and build out from there.

 

[Malakota]

It starts with personalities and a question: Does this character need to be white? Male? Hetero? Cis? abled? Usually the answer is no, they don't, and since we write urban fantasy with the philosophy that it really does need to be urban (Chicago So White, anyone?) our cast diversifies pretty fast.

So fast that our first book, Faerie Rising, entirely lacks a male character who is straight, white, cis, and abled. Whoops.

At the start it's that simple. Once set on a course the homework begins, as we are writers and we do homework for a living. Sites like Writing With Color are invaluable to breaking stereotypes that we all carry with us into the world. We listen to them carefully, we fix our mistakes as we move forward, and we are open to doing better when we learn better. We also have a long-running series with about 500 named series characters planned, so there is a lot of room to grow. We learned early to not assume knowledge that isn't ours, to question, to listen, to learn, to be respectful and to strive for kindness, always, which is just good humaning, in my opinion.

It isn't easy to write beyond the common narrative. It's common because it's comfortable, but it really only benefits a small portion of readers. Everyone deserves to be the hero sometimes. In kids it's the silver bullet to self-esteem, and in adults it's validation of their existence and experiences. I know, as someone who is female, LGBTQ, fat, middle-aged, disabled, and autistic, it is terribly hard to find myself in the media I consume, so the three of us create heroes for ourselves and for the readers out there like us. And maybe someday we'll be a part of the common narrative, too.

Thank you for the feedback. I feel better about writing characters that are more representative of myself and my partner. Those who don't fit into the "norm" and are labeled as "other". This gives me more direction on how to add more aspects of myself into them, so I can build more solid and relatable characters for my stories.

 

[Malakota]

I often don't really know what my own protagonists look like beyond a few vague traits (like hair color, a notable article of clothing such as glasses or a coat.) Often, I only have a vague image of their appearance, at best.

I prefer to focus on their personality and role in the story, and build out from there.

I feel the same.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I'll go against the majority opinion, and say that it can work. You just have to be intentional about it. A good example is Lock In by John Scalzi. That's a (popular and well received) novel, where the gender of the main character is unknown throughout the story. The audio book even has both a female read and a male read version because of this. The reader can decide on the protagonist's gender himself. Now this doesn't mean all your characters should be blank generic people. Just that you can do what you're aiming for.

A recent book I read, Sixteen Ways to Defend a Walled City, only describes the main protagonist as short, not very athletic, and relatively ugly. We don't get much more than that. It's a great book, and not once did I wish for a better description of the protagonist. Now, it's also a first person epistolary tale (meaning it's written almost like a diary), which is different from a multi-POV urban fantasy tale. But again, it shows it can work great.

Also, pay attention when reading, but many character descriptions aren't actually all that detailed. Usually writers pick one or two specific details for a character and keep repeating those over and over again when describing the character. It works wonderfully. Much better in fact than most detailed descriptions. People can only remember so many details about all the characters in your novel. It works much better if you always have your characters described the same short way.

Lastly, I personally feel it's not a duty for the writer to include a diverse cast. You can if you want, but you are under no obligation. And in some instances it doesn't make much sense at all. One of the criticisms I've seen of the Amazon show The Rings of Power, was that each location was as diverse as they could make it. Which removed all sense of place (visually). You didn't know if you were in the far north or south, east or west because every place looked the same. If it makes sense for your setting to have a non-diverse cast, then go for it. In Jade City, everyone is Asian, and it makes perfect sense. The whole story takes place on an Asian island with few outsiders visiting, and none of them matter to the story.

 

[pmmg]

Thank for your feedback and the sources that you offered, they were quite insightful. I suppose that I should further explain that in the realm of this story, the people are relatively new to the land in comparison to some of the other creatures that inhabit the world and have not yet left their place of origin. I feel that I have purposefully left out elements like skin color because focusing on character personality was a more fitting way to connect to readers. As a person of color myself, with a people that very rarely are represented in media, I fell like I can connect deeper with characters that are more physically vague. In the very few instances that the people of my culture are in the media, they are greatly misrepresented to a few offensive stereotypes. Personally, the incorrect portrayal of my people makes me feel more invisible than having no representation at all. My aim is to be able to be sensitive to those like me and otherwise, that want to feel like they can be part of a great adventure.

I am still asking the why of this thread. If the OP'er feels they are poorly represented. and the incorrect portrayal has them feeling invisible, how does writing non-descript 'invisible' people help with that? If you want to see that stop, maybe you should write such group in a way you think is accurate instead. Unless invisibility is the point (and nothing above suggests it is), its not addressing your main issue, or changing it much for anyone else in your shoes.

What nationality/ethnicity are you that you feel there is no representation? Cause the much of the industry is pretty senstive to that stuff, and I am sure sympathetic to your issues.