Diversity Lioness misfire?

[Penpilot]

First I like to agree that this was pretty ruthless, especially for having only read 13% of the book.

But as others have said, try to look past the snarkiness and see what you can glean.

I read the synopsis, and I do think that first line does set off alarm bells and can put a reader in the wrong mind set, having them focus on stuff that isn't necessarily the story. It's like making a bad first impression. Once that happens, rightly or wrongly, it's hard to recover from.

IMHO, if you remove the two instances of the word black in the synopsis, it silences those bells.

I hope this doesn't discourage you. If anyone wants to grow as a writer, they have to step out of their comfort zone. And when that happens, there's always potential for mistakes. There's a couple of sayings I hear in playing sports all the time. Playing to win. Playing not to lose. The latter usually gets you nowhere.

 

[Caged Maiden]

:cloud9: This was the closest thing to a hug I could find. It'll have to do.

Firstly, I feel really badly that your work met with the kind of harshness present in the review. Unkindness is an unfortunate result of people's anger. I can only assume the person was really upset by what she read.

Okay, I'm going to try to say something that concerns me about writing POC, and hopefully it won't sound repetitive or random. I think one of the problems is that if you establish a character is, say, a dark-skinned beauty with yadda yadda features, you're bringing attention to her "race" right off the bat. Then, to say, differentiate other characters, their "races" come into description too. In essence, it may appear an overly-large focus is on racial features, characteristics, and so on and so forth. It becomes as if the race is the story.

Now, I haven't read your book, and I'm not suggesting you have done this, but by the way the reviewer analyzed all types of people by their race and pigmentation, it at least came off that way (or something similar) to them.

I'm considering writing an airship captain who is dark-skinned and not at all remarkable vs. any other captain. I'm not going to treat him any differently than any "white" character I might have written to fill his place. I have reservations about his language (being afraid that readers may be offended if I don't write a certain vernacular to his character to match his "race" but I just have to give up worrying about it. I mean, to me, he's just a captain and a MC and he's any other guy, not defined by his pigmentation, but rather his military background and life experiences that aren't at all linked to racial issues.)

If my opinion matters at all to you (because I'm probably not as sensitive to this issue as many other people, and not because I don't care, but rather because I disagree with making things about skin color), I'd say that perhaps you did too much to define "races" in your creative efforts? Please, I am not intending any kind of offense to anyone, and I have deep respect for people's personal feelings here, but for me, I might be put off by a story that gives too much weight to race. I feel it may have been part of why the reviewer was offended.

I guess what i'm trying to say is that if you wrote a female warrior who is dark-skinned, I wouldn't think too much of it and just enjoy the tale. But by adding in the different peoples of your world and each having thought given to their pigmentation, it puts a lot of emphasis on that single thing. By adding in secondary and tertiary characteristics to each people, it can appear a rather over-simplification of "races" and an assignment of traits verging on "good" and "bad".

I can't say anything specific about how to improve the story (because for all I know it's a wonderfully elaborate world full of rich characters with characteristics separated quite nicely from their "race") but I can say that for me as a reader, I would find it hard to read a book where a POC MC felt like a caricature, either by over-simplification or by over-emphasis regarding race.

If I'm being honest, the first review didn't really draw me in, either. Please don't read malice in my words, but I felt the character sounded over-emphasized in that review as well. I once had a critique kn a character that really bit deep. He said she was unbelievable and almost unreadable because she was just too good at everything. I was sort of speechless, because I didn't see her that way at all. But there it was, a critique against my character because the reader wanted to see her flaws and weaknesses and as I presented her, she was unappealing. I don't know anything about your character but I find the first review a little unflattering for the character and maybe that reviewer loved her aggression and sexual angst, etc. but to me it sounded like the character was a little out of proportion. Maybe too big a personality, all things considered.

I hope my thoughts help in some way. If they don't, ignore them and just know that I have respect for you as a writer and fellow scribe, and even if this particular story met with harsh criticism, it doesn't define you as a writer.

Best wishes.

 

[Graylorne]

Thanks, CM, I could do with a hug

A pity is, the comments are for a great part about a short description of the peoples I added to the map, just to avoid racial descriptions in the story itself. And then you get misunderstandings, where 'light-skinned dropouts' become mulatto, while I see them as white criminals, or 'a slender brown-skinned people' are sun-browned sailors, where I see Malay or Indonesians. And yes, I forgot to add that the two undescribed races are kin to the brown-skinned ones, that doesn't help. So my descriptive powers fell short.

Ah well. I'll redo the list, perhaps that will prevent any jumping to conclusions that aren't there.

I really am grateful, C.M.

 

[Graylorne]

Penpilot: I'll reword the synopsis and change the blue eyes together with the list of peoples.
And no, I'm not discouraged. I'm frustrated that I'm not only writing in a foreign language, but in a foreign culture as well. And both together give unwanted misunderstandings.

I ran out of thanks, I see. I'll do it later.

 

[cupiscent]

Trying is important. Well done for trying! That was awesome. Your heart is in the right place. Thank you.

You can't win everything with everyone. This is just a guarantee in any sort of art, and particularly in writing.

Just because someone doesn't get what you're trying to do doesn't make their view invalid. It also doesn't mean that you failed. It means you failed to do it for that person. This is a situation where it's important to listen to what they're saying, why this has failed for them, and incorporate that into your next attempt. All we can to is try better next time. We might not succeed with everyone then - in fact, chances are we won't - but in listening and trying, we are helping make things a little better.

 

[Graylorne]

Thank you, cupiscent.

I do understand the blogger's side. It's the unknown nuances that make it difficult, not their view in general.

 

[Graylorne]

I'm thinking about changes.

I can't change anything about the shamans, the magic etc, for these are integral to the story.
But I can take out the offending descriptions of the various peoples. Would silver do it for the boys? They are magic-genetically beautified already.
That means I must add a few descriptions when a character is introduced. And I'll keep this sort of thing to the barest minimum.
Like this:

1. Maud was a dark, handsome girl with close-cropped hair dyed the bloody red of active service. In her well-waxed body armor, she was the epitome of a Kell warrioress–strong, virile and dangerous. Yet underneath her brawn she was eighteen-year-old, and her heart hammered with the excitement of her first foray into the high kingdom of Malgarth.

2. ‘A boy.’ With a wave of his hand, an image appeared of a young male about Maud’s age. He was small and slender, with long, wavy red hair accentuating the silvery beauty of his face and his large eyes.
Divine Otha! He’s delicious! To her disgust, Maud felt her loins react to the boy’s delicate beauty. Keep your pants on, girl. This time. But the mirror reflected her face next to his, in dark contrast to his silver, and she couldn’t stop her breath speeding up.

3. ‘He’s a pirate when it suits him.’ Darquine formed one brown hand into a make-believe pistol. ‘All our people are. As soon as I get my hands on a ship, I’ll be one. Shucks, I didn’t get my master merchant’s license just to ship dullfruit.’

4. The veteran was asleep, snoring stertorously. Her dark skin had an ominous hue that frightened Maud. ‘How long has she been like this?’

5. ‘There is something playing snowdance with my wires,’ the Thali engineer said. ‘And I haven’t a notion what it is.’ He looked up, the strain clear in his tawny face. ‘I know this blasted engine inside out, and I’ll swear there is nothing wrong with it. Nothing at all. Ahh, I’m going mad.’
‘Son of the Thi-a-Yuuk,’ Maud said formally. ‘Could it be magic?’

6. Damn, it’s him! The Spellwarden. She took the knife from his unresisting fingers and looked him over. No, he’s different. The same silver beauty, but more muscled. Not a rat at all. We must be of an age, too.

I am at a loss whether this would be a wise change, so I'd love some more collective wisdom.

 

[Mythopoet]

I would strongly recommend NOT making changes based on one review from someone who hasn't even read the whole book.

 

[Graylorne]

Thank you, Mytho; a clear answer

My insecurity is playing up these days (not only for this), and I can use some clarity.

 

[Nimue]

Wait, um, you didn't have descriptions of people as they were introduced? Or you just left out skin color? I definitely think it'd be a good idea to mention that in-story. It's possible that by not mentioning skin color, you could fall into "White as Default" territory--people tend to assume characters are white unless they've got cues to indicate otherwise.

I suppose the race descriptions would counter that, but they do come across as unnecessarily generalizing. The Kells are black and militant. The whitish warlocks are beautiful and magical. If you introduce these peoples through characters over the course of the story, not through trait statements, that would lessen the instinctive "is this racism? It kinda reads like it" reaction.

 

[Graylorne]

I did describe them, but most the main characters. For people like the Thali engineer I relied on the general description.

I wondered if I was too much into detail, and too much in 'she's black and he's white'. So I looked for a way to tone that down by making her dark and him silver. Probably I'm just overreacting.


These were the two MC's from the cover.

Maud was a big, muscular girl, topping the crew by a head or more. Her skin shone in the purest black, her eyes were blue and her close-cropped curls dyed the bloody red of active service. In her well-waxed body armor, she was the epitome of a Kell warrioress–strong, virile and dangerous. Yet underneath her brawn she was an eighteen-year-old girl, and her heart hammered with the excitement of her first foray into the high kingdom of Malgarth.

a young male about Maud’s age. He was small and slender, with long, wavy red hair accentuating the alabaster beauty of his face and his large gray eyes.

 

[Mythopoet]

If Maud's skin is supposed to be "the purest black" then your cover artist really let you down. I would change the cover as soon as you can. Get some art that actually shows her as black and not just someone who could be really tan. That one is a valid criticism.

 

[Graylorne]

That's not really the artist's fault. I should have given her a free hand, as with the Trilogy. This one was made to my specification, and there wasn't a suitable black female model on the stock sites having the right pose, so she colored a white character darker.
As covers are generally only an indication of the content, I didn't think it mattered all that much. How many cover persons do look like the book character they represent?
I can talk it over with the artist what can be done about it, but I can't afford a new cover atm.

 

[Mindfire]

Alright, I promised to come back and translate the criticism into a more helpful form, and though others have already highlighted some of the issues present, I have returned to honor that promise. Bear in mind that I will be reading a lot into all of this, but I'm doing it to give you a fuller picture of what's going on here. Also bear in mind that I have only read the criticism, not the work itself. I'm just translating to give you a more helpful sense of what the reviewer was probably thinking. So please restrain your impulse to protest that "that isn't what I meant" or "that's not what the book says". Without further ado, let's begin.

Got it so far? Was it just me or did that descriptor ‘black powerhouse of brawn’ set off any warning bells? If I’m being overly sensitive, absolutely tell me so.

First off, the "black powerhouse of brawn" thing- not a promising start at all. A lot of the stereotypes about us Black people is that we have a more "physical" nature than White people, with the corollary of course being that this physicality makes us, shall we say, less intellectually inclined. This is particularly true in America for various reasons. Even when a Black intellectual does appear in media, they are typically portrayed either as quite exceptional or an object of ridicule. Or both. Not being from America, I don't particularly blame you for not being aware of this but it's something you should consider in future. It's not the fact that the character is a Black warrior that's offensive. The problem is that the wording feeds into the stereotype.

So we have a world filled with black female warriors, sun-browned sailors, two groups of white mages, a motley crew of mulattoes and everyone else is… generic? Which by default in the Fantasy genre makes them white. Moving on…

This is yet more problematic, but unconscious, stereotyping. We have the Black warriors, which feed into the stereotype I just mentioned, and possibly also a dash of Victorian ooga-booga tribalist stereotypes. But now we also have White mages to contrast with them. This is another unconscious blunder. Immediately after describing the Black Warrior culture, you present White mages. Why is this problematic? Because magic is associated with intelligence and wisdom. So much so that in nearly every RPG ever the primary stats a wizard character relies on are called intelligence and wisdom. So you've unwittingly created a contrast between a "militant" (aka savage), matriarchal (more on that later) Black culture and a magic-using (aka intelligent, wise, enlightened) White culture. This. Does. Not. Look. Good. Now there is one thing I disagree with the critic about. I would not have read the pirates as being "sun-browned" but as being perhaps Polynesian. But that's probably down to me having a different frame of reference. Now you may be wondering, why did the reviewer consider the Garthans to be mulattoes? Answer: because you didn't give a racial description for the Jentakans and Thali as you did for the other races. In fantasy, because of the proliferation of European tropes and perspectives in the genre, "no description" means "White by default". So if you didn't bother to describe the Jentakans and Thali (thus making them White by default), but did describe the Garthans, the logical deduction is that the Garthans are light-skinned, but not White. Because if they were white you would have given no description, as you did with the Jentakans and Thali, you see? And this brings us to another potentially problematic issue: the Garthans- which the reviewer interpreted as mulattoes- are described as "dropouts and renegades". In other words, they're outcasts. Pretty sure that could be construed as offensive to mixed-race people (for whom mulatto is now an archaic and somewhat pejorative term), who are stereotyped as "not belonging" in either White or Black culture despite comically trying and failing to.

First, let’s go back to the cover and title: Lioness of Kell. Does that look remotely like a black woman to you- ‘a black powerhouse of brawn’? With blue eyes, no less? And if you think it’s just me, Basil’s initial description reads: “…His finely cut white countenance…” Even though that doesn't make much sense, I’m pretty sure what it means.

I cannot stress enough just how badly your cover art has failed you. It takes the issues already present and magnifies them. First, after invoking the stereotype of Black physicality, you have presented a woman on the cover who I think most people would agree does not remotely match the description given. And she has blue eyes to boot. What is offensive about this is difficult to put into words, but the best I can manage is that it seems to say: "Black women are not aesthetically pleasing. But don't worry I softened her features on the cover so you would buy the book." And the fact that you gave the ostensibly Black people blue eyes can feel like a slap in the face for the same reason: you're giving them White features (which are stereotyped as being more beautiful) to make them more palatable to the (presumably White) reader. As if Black people are not relatable enough on their own terms. And there's a LOT of issues surrounding how the aesthetics of blackness are perceived in our culture. I know this was not your intent, but that's how it looks. I'd advise you to change the cover art as soon as you possibly can. And make the Kell not blue-eyed if possible. And this is exacerbated by the fact that you describe Basil's "white countenance" as "finely cut": within the established context, this reads as nothing less than a paean to White beauty and even the supremacy of the White male in particular if one is inclined to be uncharitable (which the reviewer clearly is).

And as you’re still wondering what’s up with black men in this book… you get your explanation at the 13% mark. You ready? You sure?

Once upon a time, everything was pretty normal. Until their leaders started using Shamanic Magic- bad magic. They got greedy, covetous, etc,- you know the drill. They were so decimated by these wars when invaders arrived they had to flee their homeland.

The unintentional blunder pileup continues here. Within the established context, "shamanic magic" reads as "witch doctors" and all the terrible stereotypes about African culture that come with that. And the bit about the shamans being greedy and covetous further feeds into stereotypes about African-descended people being naturally morally deficient as compared to White people. The wars and infighting could be read as invoking that Victorian-era stereotype of African tribalism.

The High King gave them land to settle in and with most of the shamans gone, the wisewomen took over and through herbs and magic began breeding aggression out of the men and into the women. They strove for balance but it’s not nice to fool with Mother Nature. So now all black men are pansies and black women do the heavy lifting. And they’re so aggressive they often need release, so it’s to the point of fight or ****. Is it any wonder Maud finds other men more attractive than her own?

And if you thought all that was bad, you've really stepped in it now. First: the women of the culture take over and breed aggression out of the men. You've basically said that Black men are violent, over-aggressive, and need to be controlled. This is a real-life justification for racism that goes back all the way to the time of slavery and is still present today. And then you follow that up by revealing that aggression has been bred out of the men and into the women, who now do all the work. This feeds into another racial stereotype with a long history: black women as domineering and unfeminine (and therefore more deserving or at least better adapted to harsh treatment while being simultaneously romantically undesirable) and black men as being lazy cowards. Unlike the previous issues I suspect that a mere superficial change will not solve this one. In spite of what Mythopoet says, I do believe your worldbuilding should be, at the very least, re-considered. How you solve the issue is up to you, but I personally would be extremely thorough: remake the Kell culture entirely from the ground up, but this time with input from Black beta-readers. Or at least someone better versed in these issues and stereotypes.

But wait- there’s more! Turns out there might be one shaman left in the world. And he might have the means to cure Basil’s lameness and maybe even help set things right with the Kells.

And it seems you cap all of this off by introducing one of the most pernicious Black stereotypes in all of culture: the Magic Negro. And he literally is a magical Negro in this story. That... Look, I can understand how every other issue brought up here could have been unintentional. And I sympathize with you. I truly do. Writing things beyond your ordinary perspective is a difficult and delicate task and you should be commended for a valiant attempt. But this right here is the one that I just have to stare at in open-mouthed bewilderment. I cannot fathom how you could possibly have overlooked this. I'm not saying that you did it on purpose. Only that your blind spots as an author are far larger than I would have thought possible. I highly, highly advise that you give your story and your worldbuilding another look and try to correct these issues as best you can. And please get some input from someone with a different cultural perspective.

All that said, good on you for trying to write outside the familiar. Don't let this scare you away from trying again. Even this is better than not trying at all. I wish you well on your project.

 

[Svrtnsse]

Thanks Mindfire. This is a bit of an eye opener.
Much as I'm not proud of it, I'll have to admit that I might very well have stepped into any of these "traps" myself - including the last one.
It's also fascinating how there are so many things that others might pick up on that I spontaneously wouldn't have considered an issue at all. With the explanations I can definitely see how these are issues, but without them being pointed out, my train of thought would just have chugged along without even stopping to take on passengers.

I'll definitely try and get a black/brown person to beta read my next novel.


While I'm at it, I should ask: is it okay to use color of the skin of a person to refer to them, like black people, or white people? I can see how it may not be politically correct within certain communities/cultures, but if the words come with some baggage I haven't considered it'd be good to know.

 

[Mindfire]

While I'm at it, I should ask: is it okay to use color of the skin of a person to refer to them, like black people, or white people? I can see how it may not be politically correct within certain communities/cultures, but if the words come with some baggage I haven't considered it'd be good to know.

For me, that would be less about political correctness and more about "does it make sense in the world of the story?" Referring to people as "Black" and "White" very much has an "our earth" feel to it and would seem out of place to me in a Fantasy world that isn't just an alternate version of our own reality.

 

[Devor]

I'm trying to figure out whether or not I've crossed one or two of those lines with a character in my notes. Mindfire, would you be willing to engage on these topics a little more? I'm especially curious about how firmly we should try to avoid making a connection between race and any kind of shamanism.

 

[Graylorne]

Mindfire - This is terrible. I look at this list and none of these things are even remotely known over here. It's not my personal blind spot, it goes much deeper. This may be common knowledge in the US, but not over here. How could it? The population of African descent in the Netherlands is about 3% (from Surinam/Antilles), not counting refugees directly from Africa. We have far more immigrants from Turkey/Morocco (over three times as much).

I know the White by default-idea; the lacking descriptions for Jentakans/Thali was an oversight, they aren't white either. The idea making the Garthans lightskinned (= white) renegades and dropouts was a jab at my own people: the only European whites are no-goods. I knew the term mulatto was not popular, so I didn't use that idea.

I cannot rewrite the Kell culture, it is structural to the story. I can only stop making them black. I can make them white barbarians and leave the Chorwaynie/Jentakans/Thali what they are. They're based on S.E. Asian cultures.It plays hell with the idea of diversity without Europeans as MC's.
And it's even more a pity because the Kell are the most civilized of the lot, and Maud is not only pretty, she is intelligent, resourceful and an officer-cadet. They are a lot more clever and stable than the white warlocks, who are for the most a pack of fools.

If I changed the Kells into white, will that take away all the problems??

It is dramatic, for I'm in the first week of a two-month Virtual Book Tour and I don't know how I'm going to arrange that.

 

[Jabrosky]

For what it's worth, the world I've just started planning for a project for my own has a black civilization as its earliest nation-state, and they used to be a dominant superpower. But over the past five centuries, they've withered and retracted much of their conquered protectorates, once of which has grown into a serious threat in its own right. This competing faction (actually a league of city-states tied together under one Senate) has Greco-Roman and Spanish trappings, but they're bronze-skinned like Mediterranean and Middle Eastern types. The white people on the other hand are almost all hunter-gatherers living in the far northern reaches, but they do have some limited iron-working for weapons like swords and axes. Their big, stocky physiques and warlike raiding culture make them popular as mercenaries for more southerly nations, including the black kingdom.

The story I'm still planning features a romance between one of these white mercenaries and a black princess, who has her own martial training but specializes more in agility and cunning than brute strength. Though their attraction is mutual, it's the white guy who's most eager since the princess is hesitant to "contaminate" her dynastic bloodline with a foreign "barbarian".

@ Graylorne

I wouldn't whitewash the Kells at all. I'm not even sure Mindfire has actually read your book himself, as opposed to just going off that other review's (presumably mis-)characterization. Not saying he isn't pointing out real stereotypes in the American context, but I'd have more confidence in criticism that didn't draw completely from a secondhand report.

 

[Graylorne]

I'm glad I posted the problem here! I'd say a big thank you to Mythic Scribe as a whole for giving of their thoughts and experience!