Elemental Magic

[Finchbearer]

While reading this, I realized that maybe I should just use "mana" to describe my elements' energy, but then I remembered why I went against the idea. For me, mana just reminds me too much of video games and feels jarring for my world.

For me I’m coming in from a non-gaming background, and so I don’t use the word ‘mana’. I’d say that I’m very much coming in from the literary end of the spectrum in that my love of literature is what has brought me to feel compelled to tell my own stories. I can appreciate that gaming brings a lot of folks to fantasy writing - though sometimes I feel like a lost traveller at times trying to navigate new ground. I’d be more attracted to reading relaxing slice-of-life lit-RPG’s but then I’ll read a random number ‘300’ and just get confused as to how to read the book. I know I sound like a dinosaur.

 

[pmmg]

Mana as a term seems resurrected by the gaming community. I think I first saw it in the Magic the Gathering card game, but it was probably around before.

But, the word does have ancient origins. It can be traced back to the Polynesians, as a word that meant spiritual or elemental force, usually ascribed to persons, objects or spirits.


Following up a little more, RPGs are really interactive fiction, where as the stuff we do here is just fiction. There is some bleed over, but its not an exact match. I think one of the steps along to the way to shifting into the story creation world is to recognize that, and adjust for it. If gaming is what brought one, it takes a while to transition from one to the other. The stuff that makes RPG's fun and entertaining, are not the same things that go in fiction, and vice-versa. If I start to role play a story where players are not rolling dice....they will probably start to fade.

 

[Fyri]

Yeah, there is probably a discussion of target audience to be had there. It can certainly linger into video game logic, which can hinder verisimilitude. However, I think it is also useful to note that there are ranks in real life too, though not necessarily numbers and levels.

I'm thinking mostly of martial arts. There we see belt colors that confuse anyone unfamiliar with them.

And yes! Mana used in games definitely comes from Mana--like Chakra or Xi--in real life beliefs. However, games use it so much that it carries new connotations.

 

[pmmg]

I'm thinking mostly of martial arts. There we see belt colors that confuse anyone unfamiliar with them.

Well...that colored belt system also comes for japanese/oriental culture, which is a culture that carries that much more as a frame for how to perceive things.

In general, I would expect a black belt in something wipe out an untrained fighter, but....there is always a bigger fish is more a European frame of looking at it.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

I think Mana was called 'Mana' before video games, it's just video games (especially games like secret of Mana) popularized it as an expy for magic energy.
Some worlds have magic energy but the wordage for the actual power source is called something else. (like some games literally use MP Mana/Magic Points)

If you don't want to use video game terms, Chi or Chakra is also a good alternative, has the same/similar meaning within it's own culture and is an actual thing non gamers would grasp quickly as a concept. And it can even be worked as a spiritual part of the training too.

Well...that colored belt system also comes for japanese/oriental culture, which is a culture that carries that much more as a frame for how to perceive things.

In general, I would expect a black belt in something wipe out an untrained fighter, but....there is always a bigger fish is more a European frame of looking at it.

In a lot of shows (especially ones with training archs ) regardless of the wordage (A rank, Power Level etc) the 'black belts' pretty much only exist as an obstacle, for the main character to over come. As the series progresses, stronger and stronger black belts show up to cause chaos (Especially in dragon ball Z) and it gets to a point where the rankings don't matter much, narratively. And of course, we have characters who exist only to 'suffer' at lower ranks. Like Poor Krillin in Dragon Ball Z, or even Worse Yamcha.

I like the underdog comeback but sometimes it's super forced, especially in video games. Where they'll toss you a 'tutorial' boss (which you stand no chance at winning) that shows you how hard enemies will be later in the game, make you lose, and the whole plot (outside of the actual narrative) is getting strong enough to tackle those dudes finally. It's kind of why the use of a ranking system to actually 'rank' characters power level both lore and otherwise bugs me. Usually it's only the main characters who have plot armor who get to 'upgrade' at plot relevant points in order to overcome challenges. If there's a set ranking system, characters should be able to subvert the expectations of their ranks.

 

[pmmg]

To me, a ranking systems seems like something to rip the rug our from under. A bunch of fighter types thinking that their high ranks matters, only to find out its an artificial construct, and exists only in their small piece of reality.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

To me, a ranking systems seems like something to rip the rug our from under. A bunch of fighter types thinking that their high ranks matters, only to find out its an artificial construct, and exists only in their small piece of reality.

Yeah, that's what I'm going for in my world, the ranking system (and stats system) is pretty much: 'yeah, this is how good you are at x thing,' and that's about it. There are a few villains who fall into the classic 'trap' of underestimating lower ranked heroes. But the whole joke is that the heroes are good natured people who have things they actually consider worth fighting for. I don't like it when it's used in a more literal way though. Like as in you only have '20' strength, so you shouldn't lift this heavy object' kind of stuff. Even then I won't be using that hubris for every villain, cause that'd get annoying and repetitive really fast I think. Heck, one of my characters exists purely because her whole point is to drive home 'it's not what you have that counts, but how you use it'

 

[Fyri]

I think it also depends on how you implement them and what your focus is! Do you have a ranking system simply to indicate strength--or is there a cultural attachment to is? Do you use a ranking system simply to compare fighters, or is it also a focus/goal for emotional development?

 

[Finchbearer]

I think general research into the etymology of the words you choose for your stories is / can be important. Upon looking ‘mana’ is indeed a Polynesian derived term for magic, which has simply found its way into the gaming world - the more you know!

I did in fact research the etymology of the word ‘magic’ which has Greek and Latin origins, and was used in Middle English - which seeing as I’ve taken much inspiration from Old English for my world building makes total sense as a word to use in my writing.

If I were to go ahead and write an Asian inspired story or a fusion type with a more global feel then I could feel more comfortable about using words like ‘chakra’ or ‘mana’, but for me it’s also about appropriateness too.

 

[Fyri]

But the whole joke is that the heroes are good natured people who have things they actually consider worth fighting for.

Hey. Harry Potter defeated Lord Moldy Butt because he had ~☆*Love*☆~.

 

[Finchbearer]

Hey. Harry Potter defeated Lord Moldy Butt because he had ~☆*Love*☆~.

Inventive way of getting around not saying his name

 

[pmmg]

Whose name?

 

[Fyri]

Inventive way of getting around not saying his name

 

[Finchbearer]

 

[Fyri]

I'm not cool. I only steal. XD

 

[Queshire]

Ohhh. XD I was gonna say, what the heck elements are you combining for the abstract concept of Luck. XD Have to say I'm a little disappointed it is money related, but it does make sense.

That's just one route to reaching it. You could go Light Mana > Star Mana > Luck Mana for astrology, Darkness Mana > Curse Mana > Luck Mana to focus on bad luck or Unaspected Mana > Arcane Mana (a special neutral type of mana) > Luck Mana for a variety developed via super computer-esque calculations. It's all about developing an understanding of what Luck is in universe. Out of universe I was more interested in coming up with a system where I could justify including whatever elements I want instead of having a distinct list of elements.

Oooh. So, it also works with our connotations of fire? Like, Fire mana can simply generate light without heat, or manipulate mere warmth, or manifest real fire through just the feelings of passion or anger?

I kind of have that idea in my books. A character is able to manipulate his fire to be warmer or harmless, but still bright. But the connection to emotions is something I don't include. I like how you presented that here.

Yep. The direct emotional aspects generally require specific training or techniques to use. It's a bit too abstract to easily get just from molding mana without that training.

While reading this, I realized that maybe I should just use "mana" to describe my elements' energy, but then I remembered why I went against the idea. For me, mana just reminds me too much of video games and feels jarring for my world. Have you run into that problem (I noticed you also mentioned levels, which I also used early on, until a beta mentioned how it made it feel too much like a video game and I agreed and disliked it). Or if you were to get that comparison, would you be bothered or happy for it? I think there is no bad answer to that, just preference and intentions! ^_^

Quesh's system seem very workable, but way more thought out than I went for. But...I do admire the amount of working it out they have done.

Most of these seem like they would fit better in RPG's and video games to me. Such definable knowledge of such system seems like more than the characters or peoples of the world ought to really know. Its like, once I put numbers and labels on them, I have a way of making sure no one breaks the rules. But its the one who breaks the rules that throws everyone into a tizzy.

In game system, I have a level or ability, and I get to a place where I can cast fireball. I just stick it in its slot, and i know every time, without fail, it will work in this way. But my feeling is, magic should be more of...I had some control over a fuel source (mana), and I exerted myself, and focused it into a form that was flame and exploded a distance away. Its not really that I had a spell in my list, but that I had to discipline to control it through all of those stages... And while my focus and affinity may be with fire, its really the same fuel source if I wanted to use water or earth...just maybe I am not as practiced with those.

And even for the stuff I've practiced and can with effort repeat, what if I am interrupted, or the supply of fuel is too low, or too high...it may change the results, or my ability to do. I don't just get to walk around all assured I have some power in my list.

For me I’m coming in from a non-gaming background, and so I don’t use the word ‘mana’. I’d say that I’m very much coming in from the literary end of the spectrum in that my love of literature is what has brought me to feel compelled to tell my own stories. I can appreciate that gaming brings a lot of folks to fantasy writing - though sometimes I feel like a lost traveller at times trying to navigate new ground. I’d be more attracted to reading relaxing slice-of-life lit-RPG’s but then I’ll read a random number ‘300’ and just get confused as to how to read the book. I know I sound like a dinosaur.

I'm intentionally using video game aspects. It acts as a common ground that the audience can anchor their expectations in, and there's video game mechanics that would have some really interesting world building potential if taken literally. Consider your average PC character in an MMO or the player character in something like Skyrim or Fallout. They only sleep to pass the time, only eat to heal and never get exhausted even if they walk from one end of the continent to the other. Sure, in the games this is just because (outside of survival modes) it'd be a pain if the player had to deal with that, but put someone like that in a traditional fantasy story and they'd be a super soldier.

Things feel jarring when they're arbitrary. My goal has been to avoid that and make it so that everything feels like it flows from one thing to the next.

 

[Fyri]

That's just one route to reaching it. You could go Light Mana > Star Mana > Luck Mana for astrology, Darkness Mana > Curse Mana > Luck Mana to focus on bad luck or Unaspected Mana > Arcane Mana (a special neutral type of mana) > Luck Mana for a variety developed via super computer-esque calculations. It's all about developing an understanding of what Luck is in universe. Out of universe I was more interested in coming up with a system where I could justify including whatever elements I want instead of having a distinct list of elements.



Yep. The direct emotional aspects generally require specific training or techniques to use. It's a bit too abstract to easily get just from molding mana without that training.







I'm intentionally using video game aspects. It acts as a common ground that the audience can anchor their expectations in, and there's video game mechanics that would have some really interesting world building potential if taken literally. Consider your average PC character in an MMO or the player character in something like Skyrim or Fallout. They only sleep to pass the time, only eat to heal and never get exhausted even if they walk from one end of the continent to the other. Sure, in the games this is just because (outside of survival modes) it'd be a pain if the player had to deal with that, but put someone like that in a traditional fantasy story and they'd be a super soldier.

Things feel jarring when they're arbitrary. My goal has been to avoid that and make it so that everything feels like it flows from one thing to the next.

Yeah, I think it definitely depends on the audience and what kind of world/writing they want to be immersed in! Games are a beautiful story-telling medium too and I think many people will enjoy a story that plays on game logic!

 

[Fyri]

Yeah, I think it definitely depends on the audience and what kind of world/writing they want to be immersed in! Games are a beautiful story-telling medium too and I think many people will enjoy a story that plays on game logic!

I should mention! The important thing is that the writer is aware of these things and does them intentionally. Making the story feel self-aware helps a lot.

 

[SirenSon117]

All of this. I've been watching Totally Not Mark's review of Bleach, one of my main inspirations, and one of his complaints with the series was how Kubo was seemingly unable to incorporate meaning into his fights. That's a point that can be argued by Bleach fans, I myself disagree, but the main takeaway is that Magic Systems serve the characters. It's a tool being used by the characters and a character's movepool should reflect them in some way. Characters in turn move the plot forward via the choices they make in the name of their goals and ideals. Naruto's Shadow Clone Jutsu reflects his loneliness. Asta's Anti-Magic Swords reflects his stubbornness. Ichigo's Getsuga Tensho reflects his goal to protect others by knocking his enemies away, keeping them a distance from those he loves. All of these abilities are signature moves because they perfectly encapsulate the character, not because the characters are one-trick ponies. I agree with Fyri about Demographics wholesale, demographics make or break a book's success. I think this thread is full of good stuff, way more than just "elements" are being discussed here and I love it.

 

[Fyri]

All of this. I've been watching Totally Not Mark's review of Bleach, one of my main inspirations, and one of his complaints with the series was how Kubo was seemingly unable to incorporate meaning into his fights. That's a point that can be argued by Bleach fans, I myself disagree, but the main takeaway is that Magic Systems serve the characters. It's a tool being used by the characters and a character's movepool should reflect them in some way. Characters in turn move the plot forward via the choices they make in the name of their goals and ideals. Naruto's Shadow Clone Jutsu reflects his loneliness. Asta's Anti-Magic Swords reflects his stubbornness. Ichigo's Getsuga Tensho reflects his goal to protect others by knocking his enemies away, keeping them a distance from those he loves. All of these abilities are signature moves because they perfectly encapsulate the character, not because the characters are one-trick ponies. I agree with Fyri about Demographics wholesale, demographics make or break a book's success. I think this thread is full of good stuff, way more than just "elements" are being discussed here and I love it.

XD Yeah, I started it out with the idea of just exploring and sharing elemental magic, but someone branched out and my ADHD brain was like, "Nah, that's cool. Follow that train too." XD

To add to this and include non-anime, even though I am constantly depressed about the author's choices and day by day, the series gains a less positive hue, Harry Potter's go-to spell was always "Expelliarmus" to disarm, not attack or harm.

And now we're discussing how signature moves/fight styles reflect a character!

I'm torn about how to describe one of my characters' martial arts style. I think it is both graceful and cunning, a small highlight to his secret love for a special form of traditional dance, (which is connected to a softer side of himself that he is trying to burn in a fire but also protect at all costs), as well as a call back to his sharp, calculative personality.

Also! Aang from ATLA having the element of air has been mentioned as connected to A) His culture of peacefulness, B) His evasive fight style, and C) The ultimate end development of wrestling with the decision to directly kill or not kill the fatherlord--ah, firelord.

However, in that same universe, you get an air bender who flips this expectation on its head. Same with how Katara can both heal and bloodbend with the same element.

So, not only can the magic system serve, inform, and reflect your characters, but also specifically how they use it can tell more about them.

And only now am I thinking about it and I guess ATLA doesn't really use any ranking system for elemental prowess, at least not for our characters to know. Mostly just... bender and master. Hmmm.