How much violence is too much?

[A. E. Lowan]

I very rarely disagree with you, but this is one case where I will make an exception. Sure, as a youngster I thought it was pretty cool learning about (and being good at) unarmed combat and shooting things. Turned out I was pretty good at that sort of thing, and I was also good at leading in the field. Then I served on a few UN peacekeeping operations and saw the price paid afterwards - and learnt the hard way the price I was to pay. This what I mean when I say that violence must have consequences.

Speaking/writing from bitter personal experience you and others do pay a price for violence, maybe not immediately, but in the end you will pay. You're never the same again. Flashbacks, nightmares, they all come to haunt you. It can and does wreck close personal relationships. It was Dr Hook who released an album called Pleasure and Pain - and they weren't wrong.

Yes, absolutely. I am right there with you. I like to say that I was raised by the United States Navy and I'll admit, after a childhood where all my dad's friends thought it was hilarious to teach me and my sister, both stinking cute when we were tiny, how to kill people, that I may be a little warped. Definitely some pathology going on there. But, they make excellent psychiatric meds. And then there's writing.

You are absolutely right, and certainly more experienced than me. Real-world violence is terrifying, brutal, often senseless, often desperately needed. I'm reading up on serial killers for the first time this week, research. This is not fun. But! if I wanted that, I'd write True Crime or Mystery. I write Urban Fantasy, which I think makes a good point that the level of violence can often be genre-dependent. So, Urban Fantasy, known for hot guys, fun violence, and amazing cars. We make readers laugh.

Then we come for your feels.

 

[Azul-din]

I want to address the bolded for a moment before I share my example. As a woman with a history of violence, I'm going to encourage you to step back a little and really dig into female representation in Fantasy (I'm assuming genre here. She's a cat.). And I think you'll find that not only are women often treated as the "heart" or "virtue" of the cast, the one who does the emotional heavy lifting, the one who is "an awesome fighter but she hates it" because women who enjoy violence are unlikable and unrelatable, right?

I will tell you, from experience spanning twenty years of a mixed bag of physical abuse, martial arts, and a fierce nature, one thing and please think about letting your character feel this, too - violence is fun. Maybe not sex fun, but it's the other side of the erotic coin. Similar emotional depth and complexity, similar physicality. Just something to consider.

Now to the fun stuff. We don't believe in giving the reader many breaks. We'd rather be described as "grabbing the reader and dragging them from beginning to end." See? Fun! But sometimes it does get to be too much, and we draw the narrative camera back. We're still showing violence, and this is one of the most violent scenes we've written so far. It's also one of my favorites. Chonky, but still fun.

From Ties of Blood and Bone: The Second Book of Binding...

...

Magnus’s hands shook with rage, clenching the head of his cane with a white-knuckled grip.

Bastian hummed cheerfully along to his damn earbuds as he poured the last of the sand, oblivious. Idiot.

Arariel crouched by the support post and crumbled a bit of incinerated rope between his fingers. He snorted with amusement. “Well, this is a complication. So close to the finish line, too.” He stood. “Oh well. It’s been very entertaining working with you, Magnus.”

Magnus snarled. “We’re not done, yet.” He struck Bastian across the back with his cane, eliciting a yelp of pain, and then flung him backward to the ground by his shirt collar. “Where are they?” He threw magic at the complex geometric pattern, fixing it in place and preventing it from being damaged.

Bastian looked to where the two wizard women were—had been—and his eyes widened with panic. “They were just here! I bound them well. I’ll find them for you, I swear it.”

Magnus put his foot on Bastian’s chest. “No. You’ve failed me for the last time.” He looked to Arariel. “My lord, let me call a Legion Commander. We’ll find this girl before your deadline.”

Arariel raised an eyebrow. “You’ll need quite a sacrifice to bring them here and you seem to be a victim short.”

The look Magnus cast on Bastian was devoid of pity. “I see one that should suffice.”

Bastian paled and struggled to get away. “Magnus, no! I’ve done everything you’ve ever asked of me. I’ve been your partner in this. I killed my first Mulcahy when I was twelve! You can’t!”

Magnus ground his heel into Bastian’s sternum, causing a small pain noise. “I have given everything to this geas. I gave my daughter to Arariel. My son betrayed me and will be dead soon enough. I have nothing left. What makes you think I won’t use you?”

Bastian’s eyes filled with tears. “Magnus… Master… please! I love you.”

Magnus turned to Arariel. “My lord, may I present your sacrifice?”

Arariel’s grin was a thing of menace and teeth and laughter. “Sure. Why not?”

Magnus swung his cane. “Goodbye, Bastian.”

Bastian screamed as the steel head of the cane struck his face.

Arariel was a demon of blood and pain, and so while a simple offering of a soul would technically suffice, he gained more power—and more pleasure—from offerings that ended with bloody, agonizing, death. The more violent the death, the more power generated, and Magnus had a particular Legion Commander in mind.

One that required quite a bit of power to summon, indeed.

By the time Bastian was finally dead the Demon Gate fairly hummed with power, and Magnus could again see the blasted hellscape that was the native realm of both demons and angels. He paused for a moment to contemplate what they had done to their own home in their unending war and was grateful that they could not pass so easily to the Mortal Realm. It was enough that the strongest of them chose to come here and use mortal souls as some sort of point system in their conflict. The demons wanted to collect them for their personal power, and angels sought to set them free.

He wondered if sweet, soul reading, angel-eyed Winter Mulcahy knew that. He wondered if she even knew about the damn guardian in Seahaven’s Historical District. Magnus had spent twenty years avoiding the tenacious son of a bitch.

On the other hand, it really didn’t matter. She wouldn’t live to see sunrise. He caught the power of the Gate like reigns and sent out his summons. “Setheus, hear me. Your lord requires the service of you and your demons.”

Now, there's absolutely no doubt as to what exactly is happening here. We know Bastian is murdered, we know how, we know how violently, and we know why. Did we have to see the squishy parts? No. Why? Because that's not where our story was happening.

I'll post a bit of mine in return. Explanatory background: Sylvie's people send their worst criminals to the human world, first removing tail, claws, ears and filing down fangs

A scraping noise spoiled her concentration and her eyes flew open, resentful of the intrusion. It was only one of the maintenance people with a mop and bucket who had emerged from the elevator and now made his slow way in her direction. Sylvie frowned in irritation. The floor was immaculate as always and she could see no reason for his being here. He was middle aged and sullen looking, keeping his eyes down as neared her.





She barely had time to register that it was unusual for the cleaning staff to be working so late at night before he threw down the mop and pulled two hooked blades from under his uniform. Sylvie leaped to her feet and threw her chair at him. Her assailant batted it aside and continued his slow advance, his eyes intent. They caught the light from overhead, flaring a luminous yellow-green and suddenly she knew.





Sylvie had never been trained for battle. Being small and agile meant running away from trouble most of the time. Yet deep within her being lay the reflexes ingrained into bone and muscle, the heritage of a race of rulers and warriors. It had come forth unbidden when she fought El-den. Now her body crouched automatically into fighting stance and her voice was contemptuous as she spoke in the language of the Homeworld. 'Why do you come with those coward's weapons? Are you afraid to meet me face to face?'





Her assailant paused and held up one fist and she could see the scars from where the claws had been removed. 'You and your kind maimed me and condemned me to this piss-hole,' he snarled, 'They offered to replace what was taken if you were killed but I would have done it for nothing.'





Sylvie pulled down her jogging trousers and liberated her tail, partly for balance and partly as a taunt. His face flamed and he threw himself forward, swiping with both hands, the deadly steel blades flashing. She kicked another chair in his path and he stumbled then recovered. His maddened gaze fixed on her tail. 'That will be the first thing I remove,' he growled, sweeping the fragile chair aside and continuing his slow advance, 'but not the last.'





She dodged another swipe and leaped unto the top of the nearest washing machine, galloping on all fours down the line to reach the end. His anger was working against him, she realized, and interfering with his thinking. She waited until he was near enough then made another leap unto his shoulders, hooking one clawed hand over his head and reversing in the air, using her momentum to pull him backward. He stumbled, off balance and flailed with both blades trying to reach behind him. She felt a streak of fire down one arm and hissed with pain, but brought her legs up, claws extended, and slashed him from shoulder to waist before her claws caught in the bunched waistband of his coveralls and she had to leap clear.





She backed away to keep out of his reach, working the fingers of her wounded forearm. The blood ran down over her wrist but she judged the wound to be superficial. Her assailant bared his stubs of teeth, arched his back in pain then rushed her, trying to force her into a corner. His coverall was turning dark from the wounds her claws had made but his fury was if anything worse.





Sylvie glanced up at the tangle of pipes overhead and leaped up for a handhold, lifting her legs out of the way of his wild swipe. In the same motion she launched herself over his head, turning again in the air so that she landed behind him. He shouted an obscenity and tried to whirl around to reach her with the blades but she ducked and dropped prone on the floor, grabbing his ankles with both hands and in the instant before he recovered his balance she bit deeply into one leg, severing the great tendon.





The leg buckled under him and he dropped one of the hooked knives to save himself from falling but was unsuccessful . This was the opening she had been waiting for. Grabbing the wrist that still held a blade, she reversed around, pinning him to the concrete floor while she brought up both razor clawed feet as if she were running and slashed down below his rib cage again and again, feeling the cloth shred exposing the unprotected underbelly. Her claws dug down through skin and muscle until she felt the blood soaked intestines spilling forth before she leaped clear and stood panting while her attacker convulsed on the floor.

 

[pmmg]

Seems like the kind of stuff books are made for. Blood soaked intestines is hardly the word I've read. But you could lower its rating maybe be inserting a different way to say the same. If all your battles try to get those details in, I might think its a little gore happy.

I guess the question is, what do you want to say, and who do you want to say it to? Who is the target audience for this?

 

[skip.knox]

Thanks for the reply. How does it feel as a writer to write any particular kind of passage (or entire story) is a question both valid and worthwhile. Since you couch it in personal terms, all answers are valid.

I can't say that I have experienced an "ew" moment in my own writing. I've written scenes that touched me in one way or another without me intending it. It might be something funny or something tragic, but in the moment of writing, I'm mainly paying attention to the characters. In revision and editing, I'm mainly paying attention to the craft. Once in a while, though, I do re-visit completed stories. That's when I've been surprised--surprised to find that my own words have the power to make me smile or maybe tear up a little. It's what I hope to evoke in readers, but somehow I don't expect it in myself.

Anyway, when it comes to violent scenes, I guess I'm fairly clinical about it. I go into just as much gruesome detail as I mean to, and if I go further, that gets cut back during edits. Maybe if I were aiming at horror or shock, I might have a different report, but those avenues don't really interest me much, neither as a reader nor as a writer.

 

[Mad Swede]

Thanks for the reply. How does it feel as a writer to write any particular kind of passage (or entire story) is a question both valid and worthwhile. Since you couch it in personal terms, all answers are valid.

I can't say that I have experienced an "ew" moment in my own writing. I've written scenes that touched me in one way or another without me intending it. It might be something funny or something tragic, but in the moment of writing, I'm mainly paying attention to the characters. In revision and editing, I'm mainly paying attention to the craft. Once in a while, though, I do re-visit completed stories. That's when I've been surprised--surprised to find that my own words have the power to make me smile or maybe tear up a little. It's what I hope to evoke in readers, but somehow I don't expect it in myself.

I think this depends on why you write. I started writing for many different reasons, and what I later realised (after much prodding from my editor) was that much of what I wrote was on a deeply personal level. Yes, some of it does move me when I read it now. But I also see that I don't put a lot of the really graphic detail into my stories. There's no equivalent in my stories of one of the worst experiences in my life, standing there faced with a bunched of doped up child soldiers, all heavily armed, knowing that I might have to order my men to shoot to kill those child soldiers. Some of those children hadn't turned eleven... But it might have been a question of us or them. Could I have lived with myself afterwards? I don't know. Luckily it never came to it.

This is what I object to in some books out there, especially Joe Abercrombie. His plotting and characterisation is good enough to carry his stories. So why the graphic detail in his depictions of violence? I've stopped reading his books because of it. I don't need to read descriptions like that, not when I've seen it in real life. And I don't think you need that sort of detail to get an emotional reaction in your readers.

 

[Finchbearer]

I don’t know if what this conversation was turning to was something along the lines of having a female character incite violence, wether needed or not. But as a female reader, sometimes it is cathartic to read a female protag that uses violence to some capacity.

OP, have you heard of Luke Jennings Codename: Villanelle series? He writes about a female assassin who is complex in character, who kills for a living, and is by all accounts, a psychopath.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I think this depends on why you write. I started writing for many different reasons, and what I later realised (after much prodding from my editor) was that much of what I wrote was on a deeply personal level. Yes, some of it does move me when I read it now. But I also see that I don't put a lot of the really graphic detail into my stories. There's no equivalent in my stories of one of the worst experiences in my life, standing there faced with a bunched of doped up child soldiers, all heavily armed, knowing that I might have to order my men to shoot to kill those child soldiers. Some of those children hadn't turned eleven... But it might have been a question of us or them. Could I have lived with myself afterwards? I don't know. Luckily it never came to it.

This is what I object to in some books out there, especially Joe Abercrombie. His plotting and characterisation is good enough to carry his stories. So why the graphic detail in his depictions of violence? I've stopped reading his books because of it. I don't need to read descriptions like that, not when I've seen it in real life. And I don't think you need that sort of detail to get an emotional reaction in your readers.

In my opinion a lot of this devotion to extraneous and gruesome details stems from authors who've never experienced violence on a personal level. Most authors have never been punched in the face. Not hit. Not slapped. The sort of strike that comes bearing menace and a sincere desire to inflict pain and damage. The kind that can stun you long enough to take another hit, and another. That knocks your glasses off your face and cracks the drywall you crash up against. And add to that a thickly spread culture that holds violence in such high esteem that kids can watch a guy get his face hacked with a saber on TV but heaven help us if there's nekkid bosoms.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I don’t know if what this conversation was turning to was something along the lines of having a female character incite violence, wether needed or not. But as a female reader, sometimes it is cathartic to read a female protag that uses violence to some capacity.

OP, have you heard of Luke Jennings Codename: Villanelle series? He writes about a female assassin who is complex in character, who kills for a living, and is by all accounts, a psychopath.

Yes! Give me complicated, unlikable women by the boatload. I don't get to see me in fiction hardly at all.

 

[Finchbearer]

Yes! Give me complicated, unlikable women by the boatload. I don't get to see me in fiction hardly at all.

I think there is a thesis in there somewhere. ‘Why female characters in fantasy who incite violence are compelling and complex’ or something along those lines…but I am not an academic. Yes there is always (or nearly always) a reason for violence in a storyline, but perhaps if we are looking at it through the lens of what makes a compelling female character, we can get creative with it, and consider the psychological and social implications of the ‘why’.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I recently had a review (paraphrased) say that The Contessa of Mostul Ûbar is "Bloody Good, but you need a strong stomach." This reaction caught me a tad off guard, and the same review (I think) mentioned laughing out loud in other parts. I appreciate the latter but did begin to wonder if I went overboard in the violence. As a person who doesn't visualize what I read, it's a tad difficult to judge.

So, levels of violence can be a concern. Or rather, the levels of gore. People are so used to John Wick violence, basically emotionless splatter, or James Bond "clean" violence, that people into those things will tend to roll with it, but I think the more personal and emotional you take the violence, the closer to many people's line in the sand you will stray toward. The movie Seven really bugs some folks, for instance.

My personal line is real-world serial killers who like going into the details—things you just can't unhear/unread—or just splatter for the sake of splatter in fiction. I stopped watching Wick 2 because it just got boring as hell, heh heh. I'd have a similar reaction if I read something akin to it.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I think there is a thesis in there somewhere. ‘Why female characters in fantasy who incite violence are compelling and complex’ or something along those lines…but I am not an academic. Yes there is always (or nearly always) a reason for violence in a storyline, but perhaps if we are looking at it through the lens of what makes a compelling female character, we can get creative with it, and consider the psychological and social implications of the ‘why’.

Absolutely. And fortunately for our awesome selves, I am an academic and I'm fairly sure I have all the articles. Ever.

This one's a favorite of mine. It won the Hugo for Related Works in 2014, I think? Anyway, it's one of the best on this particular subject and I think you may enjoy it.

"'We Have Always Fought': Challenging the 'Women, Cattle and Slaves' Narrative" by Kameron Hurley - A Dribble of Ink

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I recently had a review (paraphrased) say that The Contessa of Mostul Ûbar is "Bloody Good, but you need a strong stomach." This reaction caught me a tad off guard, and the same review (I think) mentioned laughing out loud in other parts. I appreciate the latter but did begin to wonder if I went overboard in the violence. As a person who doesn't visualize what I read, it's a tad difficult to judge.

So, levels of violence can be a concern. Or rather, the levels of gore. People are so used to John Wick violence, basically emotionless splatter, or James Bond "clean" violence, that people into those things will tend to roll with it, but I think the more personal and emotional you take the violence, the closer to many people's line in the sand you will stray toward. The movie Seven really bugs some folks, for instance.

My personal line is real-world serial killers who like going into the details—things you just can't unhear/unread—or just splatter for the sake of splatter in fiction. I stopped watching Wick 2 because it just got boring as hell, heh heh. I'd have a similar reaction if I read something akin to it.

Exactly. Violence really needs to be about the emotional journey rather than the cool stunts. And yes, I love writing stunts. But rather than the flash and bang, violence at its core is intimate. Depending on the weapons involved, your characters can get very close, in each other's breath close, and that's going to be by its nature emotional. It's the only criticism I had about Man of Steel. I am a total Superman nut. Like, I want the Secret Lab Superman Chair. Seriously. But the fight at the end of the movie was way too long without enough emotional investment. I was checking my watch. If it had been a book, I'd have probably only kept going because I'd gotten that far... and Henry Cavill needs to call me.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

And if it's any consolation, Dem, my favorite review of Faerie Rising says we're vulgar. Gee, only 51 F-bombs.

Check out this Amazon review of Faerie Rising: The First Book of Binding (The Books of Binding 1)

 

[Demesnedenoir]

My favorite reviews are the ones that confuse me... A character I thought I implied was having sex with no one (implied or stated multiple times) was called a slut... Helluva review otherwise, so what the hey, LOL.

 

[Azul-din]

Seems like the kind of stuff books are made for. Blood soaked intestines is hardly the word I've read. But you could lower its rating maybe be inserting a different way to say the same. If all your battles try to get those details in, I might think its a little gore happy.

I guess the question is, what do you want to say, and who do you want to say it to? Who is the target audience for this?

My point all along is that the details of this scene bother me- I think it will be a lot more restrained in the final version. Your question about the target audience is the significant point- unlike other things I've written it was sui generis- myself to myself. I think there was a lot of anger behind it, obviously. Significantly, this is the first time anyone else has read it. There's a lesson in here somewhere, such as never write anything without a target audience, even if there's only one.

 

[Azul-din]

Absolutely. And fortunately for our awesome selves, I am an academic and I'm fairly sure I have all the articles. Ever.

This one's a favorite of mine. It won the Hugo for Related Works in 2014, I think? Anyway, it's one of the best on this particular subject and I think you may enjoy it.

"'We Have Always Fought': Challenging the 'Women, Cattle and Slaves' Narrative" by Kameron Hurley - A Dribble of Ink

Thank you for posting this. One of my reasons for writing this particular book was to see if I could construct a world where only females ruled, and what that would mean. I still think it was a valid project, with a lot of interesting sidelights, if I just tone down the violence a bit. My MC is a half breed, called by her people a Changeling, the result of a chance encounter between the reigning queen and a human. Disheartened by the way she is regarded by her people, she goes to the world of her father determined to become a writer of stories. She winds up with a contract to write a fantasy novel which is actually a retelling of some of the legends she loved as a child.

 

[Azul-din]

In my opinion a lot of this devotion to extraneous and gruesome details stems from authors who've never experienced violence on a personal level. Most authors have never been punched in the face. Not hit. Not slapped. The sort of strike that comes bearing menace and a sincere desire to inflict pain and damage. The kind that can stun you long enough to take another hit, and another. That knocks your glasses off your face and cracks the drywall you crash up against. And add to that a thickly spread culture that holds violence in such high esteem that kids can watch a guy get his face hacked with a saber on TV but heaven help us if there's nekkid bosoms.

You are absolutely right. When I was about 10 I beaned another boy with a large rock. Much later on in New Orleans I had a fistfight with a guy who practically begged for it. The consequence in the former instance was that his parent brought him to my house and I had to apologize. Later we became friends. In the latter case I realized afterward that I had been satisfying the desires of a confirmed masochist, which if you've never experienced is a stomach turning realization. So yes, it ain't like the movies.

 

[Finchbearer]

A ‘Changeling’ in itself was what people called women who they believed to be witches - so it gets ever more complex. The implication for your character is as a persecuted woman, so you could create a compelling female character with that idea. But get it wrong and it will miss the mark entirely.

 

[Finchbearer]

Upon a brief look at what’s out there, this interests me;

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14680777.2021.1996423

 

[Azul-din]

Thank you all who participated in this thread! Immensely helpful. Just to show you that it isn't all blood and gore, here is Sylvie having her interview for her first book at the Fantasy section of a major publishing company. REAL Fantasy


Babette perched on the edge of Art's desk, sipped from her cup and said, 'Okay, I read the chapter you sent. Now what I want to know is how detailed your conception is of this fantasy world you've created actually is.

Sylvie for a mad moment thought of telling Babette that she knew it quite well, having grown up there. Instead she tried to look thoughtful and replied, 'What did you want to ask about?'

Babette pulled an i-phone out of her jean's pocket and tapped the screen. 'For starters, what the hell is a 'Barron'?

Sylvie said, 'Well, they're big and kind of stupid. They're about as tall as the ceiling here and they walk on their hind legs. M..the people on this world domesticated them centuries ago and trained them for riding.'

Babette nodded and tapped her phone. 'So you have what sounds like knights; who rules this world? Do you have kings?'

Sylvie had a sudden mental picture of a male trying to tell her mother what to do. She stifled a laugh. 'Males are for breeding, and for

hunting and fighting battles,' she said, ' Only females rule.'


'Sounds like my kind of place,' muttered Babette under her breath. ' So this world is ruled by its queens?'

Sylvie held up a forefinger. 'One queen. She can name someone to rule after her, but not if she is challenged and loses.'

'So theoretically a man could challenge the queen and become the ruler?'

Sylvie had to laugh at the preposterous suggestion. 'Any male foolish enough to try that would be torn to pieces!'

'By whom?' Babette asked, 'the Queen?'

'By everyone,'' Sylvie said, aghast at the idea, 'It just isn't done.'

Babette tapped her lower lip thoughtfully. 'What about war, then. You say that knights fight battles. Who with?'

Sylvie explained about the monstrous life forms that inhabited the deserts of her world. 'You would call then insects,' she said, 'but they are huge, as big as a building, some of them. They fight back,' she added as an afterthought.

Babette raised her eyebrows. 'So your people don't fight wars with each other?'

'Why should..I mean, no, there aren't very many of...them.' Sylvie was becoming annoyed by the need to keep answering as if her people were just characters in a story. 'They aren't Skelloks.,' she said disdainfully.

'Like what?'

Sylvie shuddered. ' Skelloks are like cockroaches,' she said. 'Only bigger, of course.'

'Of course,' Babette said dryly. She shook her head. 'OK, you seem to have a clear idea of this world you're going to create.