How strong is your concept?

[Steerpike]

The obstacle doesn't have to be external, it could be that the boy is cripplingly shy and has to overcome that in order to achieve his goal of getting the girl to like him. The point is that there is still a conflict at the core of the concept.

I do agree that you don't need to know the concept when you first put fingers to keyboard (or pen to paper) You might start with a moment, a single situation, and expand from that and through writing work out what the core conflict is (and it might well be someone very different from originally imagined).

Yes, I think this is exactly right. It seems in genre fiction, however, and perhaps even more in new writers to genre fiction, there is an assumption that a dramatic external obstacle is needed. I took BWFoster's example to mean that you can write a great story of 'boy wants girl' based just on the emotions and tensions of the characters themselves. You still need some kind of conflict, but it doesn't have to be orcs sweeping out of the hills to kidnap the girl.

 

[Leif Notae]

I don't think that boy wants girl is bland at all. It's something that just about anyone can identify with.

Certainly, things will come up to add drama and tension. That can be both internal (boy doesn't think he's good enough) and external (miscommunication leads to boy thinking girl is in love with other boy).

However, I don't need to know any of that at the start of the story. The fundamental idea of boy wants girl is a sound start. Next, my characters begin to form. I put the idea and the characters together and see what happens, letting the characters lead.

A start, perhaps. But you are admitting in this post it isn't the entire concept.

I'm not picking on this, but I want people to see this moment for what it is. We are admitting "boy wants girl" is a start, but it isn't a complete concept.

You are injecting other things to ramp up the tension, but it isn't a story until that starts. It isn't even a full concept until that starts.

And with that, I am going to leave this boy wants girl topic be. I'm glad I never wanted anyone else other than myself, thank you very much... And beer.

 

[BWFoster78]

The point wasn't that there is no conflict; the points were:

1. You can base conflict off character interactions rather than external events (counter to posts that seemingly advocate the more wild the plot the better).

2. You do not necessarily need to come up with much more than a basic idea to drive your book (counter to posts that seemingly advocate that more is needed).

 

[BWFoster78]

You are injecting other things to ramp up the tension, but it isn't a story until that starts. It isn't even a full concept until that starts.

If vampire meets robot, etc. is a full concept, boy wants girl is one as well.

You could define a concept however you want. You could define it as a full plot: if you don't have a full scene outline of your entire book, you don't have a concept.

That seems pointless to me. A concept is what you need to get started.

 

[Philip Overby]

Well, maybe vampire meets robot isn't a full concept, but it's more fleshed out than "boy wants a girl to like him." I think the main goal of this thread was to share concepts. If you're sharing the concept "boy wants a girl to like him" most people are going to not care. They're not going to say, "Wow, I want to read that book!" For your own purposes, sure, it works, because you know where you're going with it. But if you're sharing your concept (the point of the thread) people are going to say, "And?" In any case, these type of conversations always go in circles. It's a potAYto, potAto, conversation.

I think we're defining concept how the original topic defines it (as linked in the OP). An idea is that first seed, while a concept has more elements to it.

Anyway, who cares how people define it. Everyone has their own strict or liberal interpretation of what a concept is. Whatever gets you writing at the end of the day: you can call it idea, concept, funkalupacus, or whatever.

 

[Feo Takahari]

I've been swaying back and forth on whether or not I should say this, but I might as well get it out there. I read The New Yorker for a couple years, and every story I ever read in it had no "concept" as the article defines it. While some of them had obvious conflict (which would theoretically lead to a concept), it was largely static in nature, involving protagonists who completely failed to notice that there was a conflict at all. (Granted, this style is pretty unusual for genre fiction . . .)

 

[Rullenzar]

Can we get off the boy meets girl/wants girl topic please and move on to other examples as you all are beating this concept/idea into the ground and just arguing over the same points being reworded differently by each individual. I was enjoying this topic until everyone took a fun little excercise and turned it into "I'm smarter then you!" dribble.

Lets hear some of your actual story ideas/concepts and return to this being fun.

 

[Philip Overby]

Yeah, I said that two posts ago. I agree of course; let's move back to sharing concepts.

I'll offer up a concept I came up with:

"A fallen family creates a golem to use as a tool to gain vengeance on those that deposed them. Follows the multi-generational path of the family as they gather materials, craft, enchant, and command the golem to a revenge plan a century in the making."

I've always wanted to write a multi-POV saga that deals with a family across generations. I thought it would be cool to have this family slowly build a golem over several lifetimes, the different family members struggling whether it's worth it to continue the wish of their ancestors. Sort of deals with what do you do when your hated enemies are a family full of warlocks. Make a golem!

 

[Rullenzar]

Didn't see your post sorry but great minds think alike

It's an interesting twist on a revenge story that's for sure.

 

[Ankari]

My current stkry:

A bastard people of two races serves as slaves or, at best, as peasants denied the rights of regular citizens. A young man seeks to preserve the innocence of his sister but his family desires otherwise. A mercenary leader has a the goal of toppling the established rules of power. All the while, an assassin-spy defies all loyalty for her personal goals.

 

[Steerpike]

The academic discussion is a bit more useful, in my view. If the topic is strength of concept, it is worth noting that apart from the execution a concept itself is virtually meaningless. The most mundane, dull-sounding concept can be handled brilliantly, and a concept that sounds truly remarkable in summary form can be easily bungled.

The article Leif posted is about distinguishing a complete concept from a mere idea, and what elements lead to that distinction. That's and interesting topic, and the one we were discussing. It's a lot more interesting (and useful) than a thread of people exchanging their story ideas.

 

[Rullenzar]

But at the end of the day, all your really doing is picking apart a fun little excercise. I find is amusing and interesting to see what kind of ideas/concepts people are working on.

Is that not worth it in itself?

But in sharing your concept/idea we can critique it like we have been. Distinguishing like you say the good from the bad or the well developed from the mundane.

What me and the last poster were saying is that you all made your points of the prior one. But at a certain point people were being redundant and saying the same things over and over in a different way. I emphasized that we should move on to another one which in turn may help people discover something they didn't realize from the basic one you all were smashing.

 

[Steerpike]

But at the end of the day, all your really doing is picking apart a fun little excercise. I find is amusing and interesting to see what kind of ideas/concepts people are working on.

Is that not worth it in itself?

But in sharing your concept/idea we can critique it like we have been. Distinguishing like you say the good from the bad or the well developed from the mundane.

What me and the last poster were saying is that you all made your points of the prior one. But at a certain point people were being redundant and saying the same things over and over in a different way. I emphasized that we should move on to another one which in turn may help people discover something they didn't realize from the basic one you all were smashing.

I always think it is interesting to hear what people are working on. I just wanted to point out that the 'academic' discussion was actually on-topic, and so there was nothing wrong with it. I find that interesting as well, even if the points have to be re-hashed a few times while people sort them out.

But I'm a fan of threads that follow an organic path of discussion, and if that leads to people posting their current concepts to share with others, I think that's great. Here's the one for the children's book I'm outlining:

Girl eats a candy that turns her into a cat; seems great at first but when she realizes she can't turn back and her mom doesn't know who she is, she sets off to find the strange little man who gave her the candy to make him turn her back.

 

[BWFoster78]

Can we get off the boy meets girl/wants girl topic please and move on to other examples as you all are beating this concept/idea into the ground and just arguing over the same points being reworded differently by each individual. I was enjoying this topic until everyone took a fun little excercise and turned it into "I'm smarter then you!" dribble.

This forum provides a lot of benefits: a place to go when the words aren't flowing to get a kick in the pants or encouragement, social interaction with people who enjoy the same hobby, a place to bounce ideas off people, etc.

Since joining this forum, my ability as a writer has increased quite a bit.

The improvement is directly attributable to many sources, but one of them is definitely a free exchange of ideas with the other forum members about the academic/intellectual/technical side of writing. Granted, I'm not sure that this particular discussion was leading to any great revelations on anyone's part, but the process, for me at least, is helpful.

I gain knowledge of writing from a lot of disconnected sources. Debate helps me crystallize my thoughts into coherent structure. Reading contrary opinions strengthens some of my beliefs and forces me to discard others.

Sorry that you found little use/entertainment in the discussion, but, again, I find the process useful.

EDIT: It's strange what can trigger a "breakthrough" in writing. One of my writing mentors told me all the time, "You need to get inside your character's head more." Page after page of comments had that same remark. Then one day, a guy comes to our writing group and tells me, essentially, that I need to get inside my character's head more. I was like, "Wow, you're right." I'm sure my mentor pretty much had to slap his head at that point (or, more likely, wanted to slap me upside mine.). The point being that you just never know what's going to make you a better writer.

 

[ScipioSmith]

Boy wants girl but he is confused and thinks he wants to be her father while Girl is spending all day dressed as a boy to pay off her debt to a group of male escorts including Boy.

Beleive it or not this concept exists.

 

[Chilari]

Boy wants girl but he is confused and thinks he wants to be her father while Girl is spending all day dressed as a boy to pay off her debt to a group of male escorts including Boy.

Beleive it or not this concept exists.

Is that Les Mis?

 

[Ghost]

Ouran High School Host Club.

 

[Jabrosky]

My current project, The Lakes of the Moon, evolved from asking the question, "What would happen if an Egyptian Pharaoh got kidnapped by Vikings"? That concept seed had a special appeal to me because it clashes together two sharply contrasting cultures (one a rich African civilization, the other a bunch of European barbarians). I've developed the idea a bit more and will now sum up the concept as best as I can in one sentence:

When Vikings kidnap an Egyptian Pharaoh, she must lead them through a dinosaur-infested jungle to find an ancient treasure.