Male love interest or female companion?

[Jabrosky]

I have always thought the problem came in when you reduced women to reproductive purposes, as if they could not contribute to society in other meaningful ways. I am not sure how people got the idea that any images of women intended to be sexually attractive are inherently oppressive. I'm guessing someone got the two issues confused and it became a meme from there.

 

[Svrtnsse]

Getting hung up on this sort of thing isn't productive.

This is correct, and yet it happens.
There was an article here on the site recently where someone (I'm pretty sure it was CageMaiden) wrote about how writing intimate/romantic scenes and how it could be approached much like writing a fight/battle scene. The principle is pretty much the same.

However... in our culture, sex is a lot more taboo than violence. Which is why this kind of discussion keeps popping up. It's not primarily about logic and reasoning, but about cultural attitude and perception. Much as a reasoned and logical approach to the matter would be preferable, we don't live in a reasoned and logical society (as far as these matters are concerned). I believe that that's something that needs taking into account.


Something similar happened here on the forums a while back. Someone (I think it was Jabrosky actually) asked about portraying a character as racist. The character in question would treat the MC in a very racist way and he wondered if that would be okay. In the thread where the question was asked most people seemed to think it was fine. After all, the character was being portrayed as racist and it wasn't the author advocating racism. This made perfect sense.
Then when the actual story was posted in the showcase someone almost right away made a comment about how the story was racist and it would have been blacklisted in their country.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that there's more than logic and reasoning to account for.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

It's just like a battle scene - people choose to dramatize those all the time, when they could just as easily be conducted off scene or in summary form. What are they adding, except an action element that the author likes? Similarly, an erotic scene adds a sexual element that the author likes. There's really no difference, and unless you want to question every action scene for whether it is gratuitous or not, it makes no sense to do so for sex scenes. Apart from including them because you like them and hope your reader will like to read it, they're both gratuitous in terms of dramatizing them. Getting hung up on this sort of thing isn't productive.

This is a good point. For my own writing though, I don't include any scene that doesn't serve the story in some way (at least I don't think I do). Battles, sex, romance, whatever...they all have a story purpose.

Certainly, character development and/or depiction serves the story. That should be reason enough for including any scene, regardless of content (sex, violence, etc.).

 

[Svrtnsse]

I don't see how advocating for gender equality necessarily precludes sexual portrayals of women as a whole. Just because my heroine is a kick-ass warrior queen doesn't mean she can't have sex appeal at the same time.

Of course she can have sex appeal.
What I'm saying is that if you're flaunting that sex appeal without a reason for it people will react to it. Whether these reactions are logical or warranted is irrelevant, it's the reaction itself that matters.



---
On the topic of violence vs sex I'd like to share this link:
ANYTHING BUT THAT - Scandinavia and the World

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Of course she can have sex appeal. What I'm saying is that if you're flaunting that sex appeal without a reason for it people will react to it. Whether these reactions are logical or warranted is irrelevant, it's the reaction itself that matters. --- On the topic of violence vs sex I'd like to share this link: ANYTHING BUT THAT - Scandinavia and the World

The reasons to do so are pretty easy to come by though. If it fits the character, it's what she does.

 

[Chessie]

Jabrosky, write what your intuition tells you. Part of being into all of this is that we get to explore our horizons, right? If your gut is telling you to write the story one way, then go with that. Our gut doesn't steer us wrong. I'm glad you asked this question because its important for all of us to remember to trust in ourselves...in all areas of life, but especially in writing our stories.

In the story I am planning for NaNo, the protagonist is a female. I also think that strong female protagonists are lacking in fantasy and I want to approach it differently. Her sidekick is a male. It just felt natural because of all that's going to happen. At first, I thought just like you. Oh shit, if he's a male then they have to have sex.

Um...no. Nothing HAS to happen, only what seems natural to the development of the characters. One of my problems with modern day fantasy is that the sex is hyped and detailed. It takes all the romance and special aura out of it. But I'll write a good romance scene with sexual undertones if I must...and I do enjoy it. But I also like to think of giving privacy to the characters.

Why don't you brainstorm with both male and female second roles and see which feels better? Don't worry about all the sex stuff. Part of the reason why my protagonist's sidekick is male is to show the beautiful balance of Yin and Yang when working together on a problem. Boys and girls approach things differently. And to spice up the story, it felt right to add in that they had a recent past together...and all of the sudden now they are stuck in the middle of nowhere with this mutual problem...and there is strong sexual friction there. So don't be afraid to roll with wherever the characters want to take you. Trust yourself.

 

[Mindfire]

I don't agree. It's just like a battle scene - people choose to dramatize those all the time, when they could just as easily be conducted off scene or in summary form. What are they adding, except an action element that the author likes? Similarly, an erotic scene adds a sexual element that the author likes. There's really no difference, and unless you want to question every action scene for whether it is gratuitous or not, it makes no sense to do so for sex scenes. Apart from including them because you like them and hope your reader will like to read it, they're both gratuitous in terms of dramatizing them. Getting hung up on this sort of thing isn't productive.

I'd say a difference would be that an action scene can further the plot in and of itself, whereas a sex scene only furthers the plot by what happens because of it.

EDIT: OMG LOOK AT ALL THE NINJAS!

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I'd say a difference would be that an action scene can further the plot in and of itself, whereas a sex scene only furthers the plot by what happens because of it.

I fail to see the distinction. A sex scene has just as much potential to further plot.

What if the woman got pregnant? That's just one possibility of how the act could impact plot...removed from the act itself. There's so many other possibilities as well.

 

[Mindfire]

I fail to see the distinction. A sex scene has just as much potential to further plot.

What if the woman got pregnant? That's just one possibility of how the act could impact plot...removed from the act itself. There's so many other possibilities as well.

Yes, but that happens after or as a consequence of the act, not during it (unless you want to get really technical). Which was precisely my point.

 

[Chessie]

^^ True, but isn't pregnancy considered as a sort of cop-out when it comes to plot development? Although I like the idea of it I have only used it once because of this. Although I would love to hear your take on it, T.Allen.

 

[Jabrosky]

Jabrosky, write what your intuition tells you. Part of being into all of this is that we get to explore our horizons, right? If your gut is telling you to write the story one way, then go with that. Our gut doesn't steer us wrong. I'm glad you asked this question because its important for all of us to remember to trust in ourselves...in all areas of life, but especially in writing our stories.

I would agree with this as a general principle, but what if your gut has contradicting impulses? That often happens to me.

 

[Svrtnsse]

During both sex and battle the participants are (presumably) caught up in the heat of the moment.
In a sex scene you could play up the male character's concern for getting the female pregnant and that could probably make for quite an interesting scene, but it would probably take away some of the passion from the hot sexy action.
In a fighting scene you can play up the character's concern for getting their head chopped off and it would probably increase the tension in scene in a good way.

 

[Mindfire]

I fail to see the distinction. A sex scene has just as much potential to further plot.

What if the woman got pregnant? That's just one possibility of how the act could impact plot...removed from the act itself. There's so many other possibilities as well.

To elaborate, a sex scene's effects on the plot occur outside the scope of the physical act itself. Pregnancy, shotgun marriages, love triangles, emotional bonding, STIs- these are all things that happen as a consequence of the sex. Not within it. By contrast, what effects could an action scene have on the plot? Characters can be injured, captured, or killed, plot threads can be resolved or begun, enemies can be defeated, alliances can be forged, friendships can grow out of previous rivalry, and these are all things that can happen during the course of the action scene, not merely because of it. This is why I suggest that an action scene is interesting as an event, whereas a sex scene is interesting because of its aftershocks.

During both sex and battle the participants are (presumably) caught up in the heat of the moment.
In a sex scene you could play up the male character's concern for getting the female pregnant and that could probably make for quite an interesting scene, but it would probably take away some of the passion from the hot sexy action.
In a fighting scene you can play up the character's concern for getting their head chopped off and it would probably increase the tension in scene in a good way.

Again, precisely my point. Even the ways in which one could make the event of sex itself plot-important detract from the ostensible reason of having a sex scene in the first place, which is not true for action scenes. I don't think the two are equivalent.

 

[Chessie]

I would agree with this as a general principle, but what if your gut has contradicting impulses? That often happens to me.

It doesn't have contradicting impulses. You're confused as to what to do, is all. Is this for your NaNo story? Let it rest for a day, then come back to this subject fresh. The idea that feels stronger is usually the one.

 

[Jabrosky]

It doesn't have contradicting impulses. You're confused as to what to do, is all. Is this for your NaNo story? Let it rest for a day, then come back to this subject fresh. The idea that feels stronger is usually the one.

It's not my NaNo story, but you may have a point about giving the subject some rest.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

^^ True, but isn't pregnancy considered as a sort of cop-out when it comes to plot development? Although I like the idea of it I have only used it once because of this. Although I would love to hear your take on it, T.Allen.

I wasn't touting the use of pregnancy as a plot device. Rather, I was illustrating the most obvious point where sex could influence plot.

Characters can be injured, captured, or killed, plot threads can be resolved or begun, enemies can be defeated, alliances can be forged, friendships can grow out of previous rivalry, and these are all things that can happen during the course of the action scene, not merely because of it.

All of these things could happen within a sex scene as well.

 

[Mindfire]

All of these things could happen within a sex scene as well.

But then it's not a sex scene anymore. It's a scene where sex is interrupted, or a scene where sex might be happening in the background, because now the sex is no longer the focus.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

But then it's not a sex scene anymore. It's a scene where sex is interrupted, or a scene where sex might be happening in the background, because now the sex is no longer the focus.

That's only the way you've imagined it.

Now you're making minute definitions of what is & isn't a sex scene? Seems unproductive.

If there's sex in the scene, it's a sex scene. Does it matter if it's interrupted with violence or if it strengthens, or creates, a bond?

The sex can certainly be the focal point, as much or as little as a battle, if the author intends it as a focus.

Does the rivalry pushed aside in a battle not have the potential to overtake the focus during the fight? Of course it does.

 

[Steerpike]

Mindfire:

None of what you're saying here makes a bit of sense. You've created these artificial distinctions in your mind to arrive at the viewpoint you want, and then everything else is just a rationalization to support it. The considerations you mention for sex and action scenes are the same, even though you try to cast them as different. People can be wounded (physically or emotionally), alliances made, betrayals taking place, and so on. In both cases, the after effects are more significant to the story than showing the acts. In both cases, you show the acts to bring the reader more fully into the dramatization, and to allow them to engage with the emotions created.

You're trying so hard to rationalize your point of view that you aren't even thinking this through anymore, you're just discounting what everyone says and rushing to the next false distinction to try to make your point.

 

[Feo Takahari]

On the one hand, I have absolutely no problem with showing the sexual interactions of two lovers. I believe that you can build a great deal of character in the ways they touch and pleasure (or fail to pleasure!) each other, and in how their patterns and rituals change as their relationship grows. On the other, Jabrosky, you have a history of excessively concentrating on the physical aspects of characters to the detriment of their inner lives. I suspect that you'd make the sex entirely physical and forget the emotional element.

Jabrosky, I challenge you to write a complete story about a completely nonsexual female character. Once you've done that, I think you'll be able to write a beautiful and loving sex scene, as opposed to just cattle-prodding the oyster ditch with the lab rocket.