Multiple POV story - Lack of female leads

[Gryphos]

In this very thread I just made the mentor in my story concept into a woman and to avoid the pitfalls I had to reconceptualize the entire piece. It'll be a better story and I'm very glad I did, but easy it was not. It's going to have ramifications on the entire story. I don't see how denying that works towards anybody's favor.

Well, that's understandable. As I said, I can only speak from personal experience. One time I had a fairly major male character who you could say served as a kind of mentor. After I made my plan I decided to change them to a woman, so I did ... and that's it.

 

[Devor]

After I made my plan I decided to change them to a woman, so I did ... and that's it.

If I have a character generic enough for a change that dramatic to be that easy, then I don't really have a character. I have a placeholder. That's how I see it.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

While I am not sure how hard writing diversity is (never really thought about it) I would agree with the sentiment that an aspiring writer should know their own limits and stay within them most of the time.

Hopefully that person will know when it is time to push their limits and extend their reach.

I used to think this way before I tried diversifying my cast, as much as I could within story parameters. It is an approach which may be more comfortable for a beginner. But yes, stretching yourself after some experience may not be a bad idea.

In my case, what I found was that approaching each character as an individual, and not as a member of "Group X', solved any issues concerning my self-imposed feelings of being limited.

With that approach I have no fear in my ability to write women, different ethnicity characters, gay characters, or whatever.

Yes, there may be occasions where some research can add to the character quality. Take for example transgenderism, or even ethnicity if represented in our reality. If I'm going to write an ethnic character, there may be certain elements which can add realism that I could include. Without research, I may not even know about those aspects of life. Or, with transgender characters, I may not understand the issues they deal with on a daily basis.

Still, I think those elements are largely texture. People are not composed entirely of the issues they deal with, the foods they eat, or the way they speak to one another. So, in the end, it still comes down to treating each like an individual, as distinct from another as you and I.

 

[Gryphos]

If I have a character generic enough for a change that dramatic to be that easy, then I don't really have a character. I have a placeholder. That's how I see it.

In this matter it seems we disagree, then.

 

[Devor]

In this matter it seems we disagree, then.

Even if you think it isn't true for you, the point remains that adding diversity can have challenges and might require the extra effort to get right. And that effort might be a "bigger ask" for some people than it is for others.

 

[Gryphos]

Even if you think it isn't true for you, the point remains that adding diversity can have challenges and might require the extra effort to get right. And that effort might be a "bigger ask" for some people than it is for others.

Perhaps, but I still maintain that is a risk worth taking. For a fledgling writer to take up the challenge of diversity would only allow them to get better at it over time. You won't succeed if you don't try.

 

[Nimue]

I agree that it takes effort, and that we do have boundaries. My current WIP is in a medieval-Europe comfort zone, and although there are gay characters and people of color, those issues aren't dealt with in depth. (Women's issues are, but that's not much of a stretch for me.) I don't think I'll be writing a story that focuses on intense racism or gender dysphoria anytime soon, not only because even with research I'm not sure I could do them justice, but also because there are people whose story that is and they should be the ones to tell it.

(However, would I write a story where a black trans man battles a leviathan and becomes the champion of a fantasy realm? Yes, yes I would. I think there's a difference between trying to address all the facets of a real-world issue and just including someone in a fantasy world, where you can create your own goddamn society.)

But--I really don't think that any writer should just opt-out of including women or people of color in their stories because they're slightly uncomfortable with it! That's basic writing craft, man, putting yourself in the mind and world of someone who isn't exactly you. And if it does take work, why is it no problem to put hours into crafting a magic system or plotting elaborate political betrayal, but when it comes to being thoughtful and inclusive with a female character, that's too much to ask?

I don't think it's just about the effort.


I've never tried just swapping out a character gender or ethnicity after the character has been written--I generally do those kind of changes when planning a new story or rebooting an old one, and then I write them with those changes, so I can't speak to that. Depending upon how the world would treat the character, I could see how that might be possible.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

I don't know if anyone in this discussion thinks that a writer who is unable or unwilling to gender-swap is therefore unable or unwilling to gender-balance. For me, those are two entirely different techniques, and being willing or able to swap you characters' gender is not a necessary means to diversity. As I said, I write strong women. I just see those characters as female at the first phase of conception. Same for non-white characters. I never said, "I don't want a white guy, so…" The character just happened to not look white in my mind.



Here's a self-test.

STEP #1: Think of a major character from your story.

Spoiler: STEP #2

Change this character to a Middle-eastern homosexual man.

I won't be surprised if there are some here who can follow those two steps without considerably changing the character's choices or how other characters react to the changed character. I am among those who would say this to step #2:

Spoiler: my immediate thought after reading step #2

No.

However, I don't see this as a lack of skill on my part. Just like I don't think I'm better than a good many of you because I have my characters vividly visualized from the beginning, whereas some of you might have a more gradual means of building a character.

I don't think it's fair or intellectually honest to assume that because someone's creative approach differs from yours, that person is less skilled overall and will someday reach your level when s/he uses the same techniques that you use. It just means that person's process is different. The different approach does not necessarily result in more diverse characters or less diverse characters. Gender-swapping is not gender balance.

 

[Ireth]

I have a major character in one of my WIPs who's a middle-aged gay Polynesian man, so... close? XD He's not the MC, but one of the mentor characters. The other mentor is also a POC (not sure of his ethnicity yet), thirty-ish, bisexual, and the aforesaid guy's boyfriend. I don't want to change either of them for any reason (even though these are borrowed characters belonging to a friend of mine, and I'm using them with their permission; said friend is a tad bit iffy on mentor #2 being in a story that gets published because they have their own plans for him, but we'll cross that bridge when I get to it), because that would significantly change the story and the overall effect on the MC. I'm not sure what other characters I could come up with who could plausibly replace them in their situation, either.

 

[Fyle]

Perhaps, but I still maintain that is a risk worth taking. For a fledgling writer to take up the challenge of diversity would only allow them to get better at it over time. You won't succeed if you don't try.

Love interests have to change.

If I have a story where say I have 3 white men like the OP, and there has been a love interest one of more has been involved in, i cant change the gender of a MC without then changing the love interest who may be enbedded in the story.

Then, if i do that, the story changes because the other MCs would not have fought with the now gender changed character over it.

Changing is gender similar to the Butterfly Effect where if you make that change it will cause lots of other little changes in the work around it. Keeping it as is, could be the best move due to all the details perhaps backround story/flashbacks/world outlook/dialogue tags that would be a big job to change. A job that a fledgling writer might waste time tackling rather than moving to the next project and starting the diversity from square one.

Not to mention nuiance changes around the character, what if Brianne of Tarth was a man？Treatment she gets from everyother character around her changes. Characters that ridiculed her for being a woman all would need their dialogue altered and have attitude adjustments to fit the change, big job and could leave mistakes in the writing if it is not all cleaned up.

I think this is along the lines of what Devor said, since Brienne is not generic, switching her gender would be hard.

So, for the OP, it might be best to leave it, depending on his characters. It might not, but changing a man to a woman for diversity is not automatically the correct answer.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

I mean, it's not like you needed a lot of convincing there. :wink:

ME: Instead of doing what I want, I'll do what I don't want.
DEVOR: *metaphorical punch*
ME: Thanks, I needed that.

 

[Gryphos]

So, for the OP, it might be best to leave it, depending on his characters. It might not, but changing a man to a woman for diversity is not automatically the correct answer.

Of course not. Gender swapping isn't always the best option, for reasons you've described. As I said at some point earlier, it doesn't matter so much to me how a writer goes about creating diversity. All that matters is the end result.

 

[Devor]

ME: Instead of doing what I want, I'll do what I don't want.
DEVOR: *metaphorical punch*
ME: Thanks, I needed that.

Yeah . . . that's how I remember it, too. Metaphorical punch. Right in the kisser.

 

[Fyle]

Of course not. Gender swapping isn't always the best option, for reasons you've described. As I said at some point earlier, it doesn't matter so much to me how a writer goes about creating diversity. All that matters is the end result.

Thats all I meant to say.

Prolly the Tauriel thing pulled it too far off track, movies are different than books... but tell stories so, I dont feel its far off base to use them as examples.

The OP still has not commented, but I would image after 10 pages of argument, he is more confused than anything.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Yeah . . . that's how I remember it, too. Metaphorical punch. Right in the kisser.

The metaphorical kisser.

 

[Nimue]

Don't get too friendly with metaphors, I hear they bite.

 

[Penpilot]

I've been purposefully avoiding this thread. Things like this always get messy. But I'll do a quick drive by posting.

The author shouldn't feel obligated to do anything. And it's difficult to say yay or nay just based on one single story. IMHO an author should look at their body of work and examine that as a whole before worrying too much about diversity.

If all their work is monochromatic, well, then I think it's appropriate to stop and do some self evaluation as to why. But if there's a good mixture across ones work, were one story may be all male, but another is all female, and others are a mix etc., then I don't think an author has much to worry about if one story is one thing or another.

I will also echo a bit about background characters. If all of them are monochromatic then I think it's appropriate to stop and think about why. There may be good reasons as to why, but if your setting isn't supposed to be a monoculture, then you would think at your main characters would encounter someone who is different from them at least a few times during the story. It's not even really a diversity argument, it's more of a realism argument.

I mean how many of us go through a day without seeing someone of the opposite gender or different ethnicity who isn't a close relation or colleague? Where I live, it's next to impossible. But this isn't to say in some places that it isn't likely or common.

Just my 2cents.

 

[Fyle]

The author shouldn't feel obligated to do anything.

This also what tried to say on the whole, cause it felt like people were saying in so many words he should feel obligated.

Especially since we are not talking about starting from square one with a new story. If so, my opinion would be different.

 

[Mythopoet]

I suspect the reason there's a debate is that we all have different ways to create characters.

@OP, go ahead and change your character to a woman. It's something you want to do, and you'll do it well.

@me, don't do that.

Why not? When I create a character, there's a first step for me that maybe not everyone goes through, or not in the same order. Conception, for me, is a mental picture. My huntress is not a woman. She is a red-haired, green-eyed, freckle-faced woman. Don't ever tell me to make her male, or make her dark-haired, or make her tall and lanky, or make her "hawt." It's not her. If you want a tall, dark and handsome beefcake hunter, that's a totally different person. He doesn't get to speak Addison's words or replace her in her story. He can go find his own story and someone else can write him because I don't give a damn about this guy. His image didn't pop up in my mind, and even now as I describe him, the image is fuzzy. He's a stranger.

Addison came with three other women. The images were clear. I drew them first. I'm glad Devor convinced me to stick with the Heroine Pack for my art project because I want these four characters to finally be in a single work of mine (even if it's not a story, but just illustrations). That actually has meaning for me, to write them or draw them. They belong together, and that I've yet to write all four into a story makes me feel as if I've cheated them. That's stupid, I know, but I do feel that.

So given what steps I go through to create characters, it's not as simple as, "Make him female. Your book'll sell better." And to anyone who wants to say "kill your darlings," that's not the answer. I do cut characters from stories when I can see that character isn't working out. (It's the reason Addison hasn't been in a story with her female companions yet.) I can't change the character's gender because it's not the way I create. I can cut one character and add another, but that character will make different choices. There will be a huge rewrite from the moment the new character enters.

I know this for a fact. My most recent short: I made a non-POV character into a POV character. It changed the story considerably--and for the better! I'm glad I did it, but what I did was take a 6000-word story, scrap all but the first 2000 words, and I ended up with a much better 8000-word story. New ending, new antagonists, a different fate for the second POV character, more action, more humor, and more enthusiasm on my part.



So, sorry this went waaay longer than I thought. But unless that^ got TL;DR'd, I hope sharing my creative process explains why "change the gender" is an easy change for some creators and an undesirable change for others. It's not about not wanting to write a woman--not for me, and I suspect not for Fyle either--but about how we go about creating the characters we want in our stories.

I am exactly the same! I suspect this is a big reason for the disagreement on this subject.

 

[Gryphos]

This also what tried to say on the whole, cause it felt like people were saying in so many words he should feel obligated.

No author ever has to do anything. There is no quota to follow, no enforcement of special rules or anything like that. Authors can write whatever they want – that's freedom of speech. However, freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism. No one can physically stop a person from writing an un-diverse story, but they damn sure can criticise them for it, just like you can criticise any aspect of a story.