On Lions and Amazons

[Jabrosky]

I used to think that the reason men did most of the hunting and fighting in the majority of human societies throughout history was because women had the burden of nursing and raising children, but there is one problem with that explanation: lions. Lionesses have more or less the same maternal responsibilities as human women, yet not only are they able to hunt nonetheless, they are in fact their prides' primary hunters (how they balance hunting and motherhood, I don't know, but somehow they can pull it off). What if you had a human society with similar gender roles to lion prides? The men would be in charge of domestic affairs while the women would be the hunters and warriors. Such a society would come the closest to the Amazons of mythology. Could it work?

 

[Ankari]

Lions pull it off because not all the lionesses go to hunt. At least one lionesses will stay back with the cubs for protection. Lions are not considered the primary hunter because they are outnumbered. You have multiple lionesses per lion (I think the average is 5 or 6 lionesses per lion). Lions are the protectors of the pride from other lions. They also hunt as well as fight off any potential threats from other sources. I once watched a documentary where one lion fought of a pride of jackals by himself. 15 jackals against 1 lion. That lion laid the smack down!

As to your point about societies functioning this way: it's possible. But as described above, you need a community of like minded women who understand that not all women can hunt. Some will have to stay behind and care for the women. If you wanted to model the society off of lions, then the men would be trained soldiers with their eyes towards the horizons, preparing for invasions. Women would then be responsible for the hunt to feed the army.

 

[TWErvin2]

Along the lines of what Ankari said: Male lions chase off all other males to control who breeds with the females in the pride (namely him). They also protect the pride from threats such as hyenas, which are direct competitiors with the lions.

Would the typical 'Amazon' group of women have one male controlling the breeding and protecting the group? So, while the lion society analogy may fit in some ways, it would fall down in others. Actually, hyena society may be closer to what you're looking for.

 

[Helleaven]

Actually I think the lionesses are like voluntary slaves. They hunt, they give birth, they bring food, they nurse their cubs. But the real power lies within the male lions. They sleep 20 hours a day! They're like lords and lionesses are like their serfs.

If you change the fact that male lions are superior, then it can work I think. I am not an expert on Amazon myth (though it is said that we were living in the same country). But as far as I know, Amazon warriors were just using males to breed. I even heard that they were killing the male babies if there are too many.

But in general, I think that's a good point you have there. It can bring some interesting results.

 

[Steerpike]

I think it can work.

I think the reason societies haven't evolved that way among humans is purely biological. On average, men are physically stronger and better suited to these activities. There are exceptions, of course, but on the whole it is true. Men are also more expendable in terms of perpetuating the society. Women are the limiting factor in terms of having more children and ensuring the society survives. Men can impregnate multiple women quickly, and if they go off and die hunting or fighting, this role is easily filled by remaining males. Women have to carry an unborn to term. They can give birth every ten months or so, and once they are biologically adapted for nursing. If you have your women go off hunting and getting hurt or killed it potentially has a much more devastating effect on perpetuation of the group than does the loss of males. In human societies, the males are simply more expendable. I don't think it is a biological accident that on the whole men have evolved the strength to engage in what were dangerous activities to early peoples. Because it is not as big a blow to the group to lose males, it makes sense that they would develop the physical characteristics that place them into these roles.

 

[Jabrosky]

Lions pull it off because not all the lionesses go to hunt. At least one lionesses will stay back with the cubs for protection.

Good point. My society would have a certain proportion of women doing the hunting while another proportion acts as surrogate mothers for the first group. Obviously older women who had grown too frail to hunt would form part of the second group.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Would men within the group see each other as competition then?

Would the males limit there own numbers? After all the more men there are the less breeding for each of them.

Would there be 2 separate hierarchies? One for males, ones for females?

What would be more valued? A baby boy or girl?

I think you can definitely make something out of this idea. If you keep asking yourself questions like these you could build an interesting society that's just bursting with potential conflict. There's loads of possibility for internal conflict as well as the exterior conflicts that will occur when this society is confronted by another group with an entirely different structure.

 

[Jabrosky]

Would men within the group see each other as competition then?

Would the males limit there own numbers? After all the more men there are the less breeding for each of them.

I've decided that the men are responsible for the society's spiritual leadership, so perhaps those men who have a hard time attracting mates might go into some kind of monastic order that requires celibacy. As for the more successful men, they would be polygamous like men in many traditional African societies.

 

[DarkFlights]

I'd most definitely look at hyaena society for ideas about role reversal between males and females - Innocent Killers by Hugo and Jane van Lawick-Goodall is a good one, as is Hyena by Hans Kruuk.

 

[BeigePalladin]

Actually I think the lionesses are like voluntary slaves. They hunt, they give birth, they bring food, they nurse their cubs. But the real power lies within the male lions. They sleep 20 hours a day! They're like lords and lionesses are like their serfs.

the problem with that annalogy lies in the main purpose of the main lion in the pride that seems to have been ignored; the Lion provides protection to the pride, and without it most prides end up slaughtered by competiton because with only cubs and lionessess focused on raising them - and this isn't conjecture, but actually observed pattern behaviour, becuase the most attractie food for all predators is their competiton and they'll miss no opportunity to attack.

The Male Lion solves this by sheer power and prescence and force; it dosen;t hunt, because the pack can be attacked at any time, and its fed because a hungry lion is a less effective gardian. in return, the Lion can defend his pack against almost any threat (including a hunting party of lionesses - there's a reason we call them the king of the Jungle, and its called effectiveness)

then comes the birth rate, which is about 12.5% male 87.5% female, and body builds; the lioness is lean and fast over long distances and capable of stealth, the Lion is much larger, much, much stronger (one swat of its paw can kill most animals) and also faster over short distances. the lioness is built to hunt, the Lion to protect, and they serve the pride best when following through these roles

so its not so much serfhood/unfairness as it is a different and equal natural relationship - if lions lived in smaller/larger sized prides naturally then it might be different, due to needing different requirements, but for now it works well - and is a form of functional communism XD

yay, nature knowlede to the resuce

as to the origional question, then the answer is yes, because your living in one where that option is avaliable right now - not all families follow the pattern, but there are eaisly enough where the mother works/provides and the father is the housekeeper

 

[Saigonnus]

I would think a matriarchal society would function depending on how you pull it off. The woman to man ratio would have to be such that there would be more women than men 3 or 4 to one most likely. A society like that could function a couple of different ways.

1. A polygamist society where each man acts as "husband" or "mate" to several women, since they would outnumber the men 3 or 4 to one or more. Being more numerous, the woman would be the hunters while the men stayed behind to watch/teach the children and grow the crops/raise livestock aside from the housekeeping.

2. A structured society where each gender has their own hierarchy, though the males are higher on the "totem pole" in most areas. The women are the warriors and hunters, protectors of the clan. The men rule the within the village, which is somewhat fluid in regards to the relationship between men and women. Historically women tended to go with the stronger, more dominant men for their babies to be more dominant. This type of society is that way, where there is a "top man" who takes what women he wants by force of presence, and lets the other men fight out who gets what woman.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I think it would be interesting to follow the behavior patterns Beige Paladin stated.

After all, this is fantasy. Why couldn't the males be much larger than we would think of normal humans and incredibly powerful in defense of the group?

Defining the roles in fantasy terms could be very intriguing...

 

[Jabrosky]

I think it would be interesting to follow the behavior patterns Beige Paladin stated.

After all, this is fantasy. Why couldn't the males be much larger than we would think of normal humans and incredibly powerful in defense of the group?

Defining the roles in fantasy terms could be very intriguing...

Your suggestion that fantasy humans don't necessarily have to resemble real-world humans has gotten my cogs running...I'll post some race ideas later in this forum.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.