Question about age gap

[MiaC]

I don't know if this is necessarily about writing but it's related by a question I had asked and sparked some curiosity in me.

Anyway, so I was wondering why when an immortal man is interested in a teen girl no one cares. Some examples are twilight, vampire diaries and tuck everlasting. All men appear to be teens but are mentally over 100 years old and they are attracted to mortal 16 or 17 year old girls.

I asked a question elsewhere about characters in my book, one being a 16 year old female witch and the other being a 24 year old male witch that have a mutual interest in each other.

I got negative feedback, I know that it's obviously looked down upon and the man is seen as a predator. But my question is why does no one bat an eye when it's an immortal character with a teen girl but when it's two mortals people care. Is it because the immortal appears to be the same age as the teen? Because there's no way his mental maturity level is the same (which is people's reason for thinking the 24 year old is a creep in the first place)

So I'm just confused. Is it just pure hypocrisy or is there a reason behind why it matters sometimes and not for others?

I mean it's all fiction so I dont know.

 

[MiaC]

I think its most likely due to the immortal character appearing to be 17 to 18 years old so people tend to forget about their actual maturity level or what their maturity level should be. That's the only logical answer I can come up with.

 

[Queshire]

Hey now, hey now, it's not just a matter of mortal girls and immortal boys. There's plenty of examples of girls that are really 900 years old but don't look it.

 

[Miles Lacey]

The age gap might not be the problem. A person under 18 in the United States is generally viewed as a minor. Therefore, a twenty-something person having a relationship with someone younger than 18 might be seen as a sexual predator or even a paedophile. In most countries the age of consent is 16 so no one would have an issue with a 16 or 17 year old dating a much older guy or vice versa.

When I was working for the New Zealand government I was surprised to find that the age gaps between spouses, particularly among couples from the Pacific Islands, could be as great as thirty years. So there is definitely a cultural aspect to the issue as well.

It's not as common but older women going out with young men is not as unusual as you might think.

As long as the person who looks younger doesn't look as if they're a minor or if they are described in terms which could result in readers thinking that the younger person is a minor you should be okay.

 

[cak85]

I also think there is a level of respect involved too. Speaking for myself, I am 6 years older than my wife but I hardly if ever feel the age difference. It really only comes out when I make 90s references and she looks at me like "huh?"

Anyways, a 24 year old and 16 year old would probably make me feel a little uncomfortable at first but I think if you showed that the 24 year old had a level of respect and admiration for his partner, I would be more willing to let the age difference go. If the 24 year old is just seen as manipulating a younger person, that would bother me.

 

[Chasejxyz]

Age gaps are really weird....my last girlfriend and I had a 7 year gap (me late 20s/her early 20s) and it wasn't too bad...but her first boyfriend was in his 20s when she was 13, and she saw no problem with that? Like I tried to explain to her how that was effed up and she couldn't see it. So there are, absolutely, people out there who are cool with a 20something dating a minor. On the extreme other end, there are people who will call you a pedophile if you have an adult with a "child-coded" character, which can be anything from them having childish hobbies or they're just Really Short. Tell your short friends they're not allowed to be in relationships with other adults otherwise they support pedophilia to see someone get really angry really quickly.

The thing about Twilight and other such stories is that its generally from the minor's point of view, written for minors, and they tend to not have a very realistic view of romance. Midnight Sun, which is Twilight but from Edwards view, is pretty "yikes!" because we get to see how he's constantly thinking about how he's going to kill her on accident but still chooses to be around her. And the logic of breaking into her house and watching her sleep. If that was the first book Meyer sent out to publishers, it never would have gotten very far. So, yes, when you think about it, a lot of these relationships are screwed up. But a lot of stories have really messed up things if you really think about it.

Like everything in writing, it's all about how you actually execute your idea. If this is modern-day urban fantasy (and everyone involved is human), it's probably not gonna work. But if this is more """"""historically accurate""""""""""" like Game of Thrones, then it won't be as big of a deal. Do you EXPLICITLY state anyone's ages? Because if you don't, it's going to be easier to get away with it, people will fill in the gaps with whatever they want. If they're on a pretty level field, power-wise (whether that be magical, fiscal, political etc) then it won't be as big of a problem. But there ARE going to be people who aren't going to like it, no matter what you do, so that's part of the deal.

I have two characters (M29 F150-ish) that get into a relationship that's very unbalanced power-wise, but that's kind of the point. She propositions him and is pretty open with "I am offering this because there are political and biological benefits to a potential union and you're allowed to say no to me" so it's not like he isn't consenting. But most of her other decisions are very self-serving and using others for her own benefit, so it's in line with her character. And I'm sure there will be people who will hate everything about that! But she's not really a good guy, you're not supposed to be okay with all of her actions. Your two characters, I assume, are both good guys, so their relationship should be (mostly) healthy.


*I put a lot of quotes there because....it really isn't. Like GRRM saying most people in Westeros are white because, historically, most people in medieval Britain were white is absolutely incorrect. But it DOES play on a lot of what we BELIEVE to be true of the time period, which is what a lot of writers do instead of doing very extensive research

 

[Queshire]

The rule of thumb is half your age plus seven. Well, not including immortals.

 

[pmmg]

I think, generally, people do not make their immortal characters appear to be 17 unless they wanted them to essentially be 17. And that there seems to be some permanent attachment to their age at the age in which they stopped aging. So, them picking another similarly aged love interest does not draw a lot of questions. But I do think they draw questions. When the maturity gap is large, I tend to ask why the mature one would be interested in the younger one. A mature one would want something more on their level, specially if they had centuries to play around and see what they like. I also think immortals did get in trouble for this. Zeus seemed to draw a lot of ire with his dalliances.

 

[Stevie]

I think its most likely due to the immortal character appearing to be 17 to 18 years old so people tend to forget about their actual maturity level or what their maturity level should be. That's the only logical answer I can come up with.

Interesting question. I think you've answered it yourself. I've not read Twilight or the other books you mention but I have seen the Twilight movies. Assuming the movie is fairly close to the book, the male main character is written as pretty much the same emotional and physical age as the female main character. He's a high school student through and through. Albiet eternally young and good looking and therein lies the hook. We skirt around the age difference in Twilight because, to all intents and purposes, there is no age difference.

Or is there? Is the author maybe not playing on the human need to be protected? A powerful, older and wiser person who can look after us and just happens to meet our need for love as well as security? That manages to get the story going without having us clutch our pearls too much about creepy age differences.

Speaking of clutching pearls, I'm surprised you got negative feed back about a 16 year old and a 24 year old having a mutual interest. In "Romeo and Juilet", Juliet is 13 and Romeo's age is never mentioned but he is a man, not a boy. His age is usually pinned at somewhere around 16 but might be anywhere from 14 up to 21. Context is everything. If your story is set in world like our own, where a relationship between a 16 year old and 24 year old is legally and (generally) morally acceptable (although it may get some clutching their pearls), then what's the problem?

 

[Mad Swede]

As others have written I think this depends on context.

For most people, an older person dating someone in their mid teens is seen as just a little dodgy. Usually its man dating a teenage girl, and the man gets a negative reputation.The opposite (an older woman dating a teenage boy) isn't spoken about as often and consequently doesn't get as much criticism. Larger age gaps within couples aren't seen as being problematic once people have passed 30 or so, and I think thats due to those involved being seen as adults able to make their own decisions.

The reasons for the differences in acceptance of age gaps in relationships is usually about perceived abuse. Given that older people are often in a position of power over younger people its that position of power which can make the relationship abusive.

In your case, I'd ask how you described the relationship. Was it the case that your male witch was teaching the female witch? If so, the relationship could be seen as abusive. If that wasn't the case then I think that perhaps you need to add context to the relationship.

 

[Steerpike]

I agree that in Twilight Edward seems to be frozen around high school age. He doesn't really have the maturity that goes with a much older person. This is fairly common in YA/Teen works where there is an immortal (or supernaturally old) love interest. A better example might be Angel in the Buffy television show--given his history, he's clearly not frozen in a teen or young adult state. In part, the answer to whether this is a problem for readers/viewers seems to depend on whether they like the underlying work. For example, people may criticize Edward as a creep for his, but if they like the Buffy show Angel gets a pass for the same thing (and for creepy behavior).

Ultimately, we have to remember this is fiction and fantasy. You can deal with taboo (it can be more than just taboo but let's go with that for the moment) differently in fiction than in real life. The author can create a world where, within the context of the world, there isn't necessarily a problem--and this is especially true in the context of fantasy because the author can create a set of facts that are impossible in real life (i.e. the immortal vampire). So, while the interest of a 25 year old in high school girls in real life presents a problem, the author can create a world where within the context of that world an immortal a few hundred years old doesn't present the same problem. One way in which the context comes into play in Buffy, for example, is that she's the Slayer. She has this supernatural lineage and power herself, so we recognize that she's not an ordinary high school girl and Angel's interest may be more accepted. That context is lacking in Twilight, but it is substituted with Edward being frozen at roughly the same maturity level of Bella. In both cases, the power dynamic also helps--more so in the case of Buffy, who is more assertive and more likely to exercise her power, but I'd argue even in the case of Bella.

At some point one also has to consider the aspect of harmless wish fulfillment or fantasy in relation to the target audience (yes, I know a lot of adults, both men and women, read and loved Twilight. Tons of them. But they were not the target audience, imo). I think there is a certain harmless fantasy to the mysterious older boy, the rapidity of the relationship, the depth of it, etc. that is part of what made those books so appealing. You can create a fantasy world where, in context, that sort of thing works and serves as a harmless outlet for the reader, whereas if you wrote contemporary fiction about someone the age Angel appears to be involved in a relationship with a high school girl, readers would certain question you if you presented it as a normal or desirable relationship and it would be a potentially harmful depiction.

 

[Avery Moore]

Might be an unpopular opinion, but I say don't worry so much about it. When it comes to fiction, there are going to be people who have a problem with everything, and there comes a point when you have to decide which people are worth listening to and which people to ignore. You're writing your own story at the end of the day, not somebody else's.

As far as age gaps go, I guess you just need to think about context, culture and setting. For instance, in Medieval England, girls, especially high born girls, tended to get married off pretty young. It wasn't unusual for a middle aged man to marry a girl as young as 12. Was it okay? Definitely not. Was it normal? Yes. And the vast majority of people in those times wouldn't even have batted an eyelid. Saddest part is, there's a lot of countries in the world where child marriage is still completely normal.

Now, an age gap of 16 and 24, that's not quite so black and white and could even be seen as a good match, depending on how you write it. The first thing you have to think about is the culture of the world you're writing it in. Is it modern, historic, of futuristic? Is there an age of consent in this world? Is a match between people with this kind of age gap seen as normal?

As well as that, I'd say you need to consider both characters and the nature of their relationship. It's easier to get away with "questionable behavior" if your characters are either villains or morally grey. For example, if the 24 year old man is a notorious, rogue with a history of seducing young, innocent women, taking advantage of them and then ditching them when he gets bored, then that should be fine as the relationship isn't portrayed as a healthy one and it gives the message, "Teenage girls, don't hook up with adult men, it will not end well."

On the other hand, if the male character is an "honorable" man, then you have to handle it more carefully. Maybe initially the man is reluctant to get involved with the girl because she's so young, and he wants to wait until she's a bit older. Or, if it's set in a world where 16 year olds getting married is normal, then make it clear that he does in fact want to marry her, and not just take advantage. Maybe have it so that he refuses to "consummate" the relationship until they are married.

Last thing to consider is who your target audience is. Adult novels tend to contain much darker themes than young adult novels and can get away with a lot more. For example, in Game of Thrones, Daenerys was only 13 when she married Khal Drogo, who was about 30. This generally isn't complained about much because Game of Thrones is a book intended for adults, and the fact that Dany gets married at 13 and is pregnant by 14 is portrayed as a very dark theme in a very dark book. On the other hand, if there were a young adult novel where a 13 year old girl was in a relationship with a 30 year old man, and this relationship was portrayed as healthy and romantic, that would be pretty messed up. It'd essentially be encouraging teenage girls to get involved in relationships with much older men.

 

[MiaC]

That's what I intended to do and also have her more mature for her age but yes, definitely he'd respect her. I got over 50 replies on my original post about the characters and about 45 of them were saying no way that's creepy. I get it is viewed like that because most people would think he's trying to take advantage of her. But if I portray it right, which I plan to do, it will be clearly stated he respects her, eventually loves her.

I also think there is a level of respect involved too. Speaking for myself, I am 6 years older than my wife but I hardly if ever feel the age difference. It really only comes out when I make 90s references and she looks at me like "huh?"

Anyways, a 24 year old and 16 year old would probably make me feel a little uncomfortable at first but I think if you showed that the 24 year old had a level of respect and admiration for his partner, I would be more willing to let the age difference go. If the 24 year old is just seen as manipulating a younger person, that would bother me.

 

[MiaC]

It's modern. Set in 2017 in the United States. But in a state where the legal age of consent is 16 but I didn't plan on them actually "doing the deed" till much later. Maybe a year or so. So would that make a difference? Plus he does respect her, I'm not going to portray him in a light where he's trying to manipulate her.

Interesting question. I think you've answered it yourself. I've not read Twilight or the other books you mention but I have seen the Twilight movies. Assuming the movie is fairly close to the book, the male main character is written as pretty much the same emotional and physical age as the female main character. He's a high school student through and through. Albiet eternally young and good looking and therein lies the hook. We skirt around the age difference in Twilight because, to all intents and purposes, there is no age difference.

Or is there? Is the author maybe not playing on the human need to be protected? A powerful, older and wiser person who can look after us and just happens to meet our need for love as well as security? That manages to get the story going without having us clutch our pearls too much about creepy age differences.

Speaking of clutching pearls, I'm surprised you got negative feed back about a 16 year old and a 24 year old having a mutual interest. In "Romeo and Juilet", Juliet is 13 and Romeo's age is never mentioned but he is a man, not a boy. His age is usually pinned at somewhere around 16 but might be anywhere from 14 up to 21. Context is everything. If your story is set in world like our own, where a relationship between a 16 year old and 24 year old is legally and (generally) morally acceptable (although it may get some clutching their pearls), then what's the problem?

 

[MiaC]

Some people were also saying publishers won't publish books with underage people in romantic relationships with adults...anyone know how much truth is behind that?

 

[Avery Moore]

Some people were also saying publishers won't publish books with underage people in romantic relationships with adults...anyone know how much truth is behind that?

Plenty of books exist that contain relationships between underage people and adults. Whether it might put certain publishers off though, I really couldn't say.

 

[Stevie]

It's modern. Set in 2017 in the United States. But in a state where the legal age of consent is 16 but I didn't plan on them actually "doing the deed" till much later. Maybe a year or so. So would that make a difference? Plus he does respect her, I'm not going to portray him in a light where he's trying to manipulate her.

I think you've in safe territory there. Though there will always be somebody who will get all het up and offended. But to quote Stephen King, when you become a writer, you lose your passport to polite society.

 

[FifthView]

If the immortal isn’t going to date another immortal, then all partners are eventually going to be quite young in comparison. All partners are going to die also.

So an immortal might pick a teen because they will have a chance of being together for decades. Why would an immortal chase after an 80-year-old mortal? Or, a 100-year-old mortal?

Then, too, a mortal teen has some of the same physical vigor these immortals have. This might seem like a better match. If long lives aren’t always filled with joy, the immortal might have a lot of angst…hmmm.

I suspect the immortal view of a potential teenage partner is sometimes a representation of our own aged selves’ longing for a return to youth and vigor. For teen readers, it’s nostalgia for the youthful times they are leaving. (Example: The teen about to graduate high school missing the freedom of not caring about the future.) It’s this sharp contrast that is being explored.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

An age gap of six or seven or eight years is a bigger gap the younger the partners are. For one thing, when you're younger, those years are a much bigger percentage of your life. In your fictional story, the 16-year-old's 24-year-old love interest is half again as old as her. If they were 24 and 32, the age difference would only be a third of the younger partner's age. If they were 60 and 68, it would be a negligible difference, comparable to a difference of a year or two between teenage partners.

For another, when the younger partner is a teenager, that kind of age gap nearly always means the older partner has experience living in the adult world while the younger one does not. That, above all, is what really creates a power imbalance, and what makes relationships with that kind of age gap ripe for exploitation. Even if the older partner doesn't mean to be exploitive, the fact remains that their partner completely lacks adulthood experience, and so cannot meet them as a complete equal.

There have been times in history when people came of age younger and took on adult responsibilities at younger ages. In those times, the gap between 16 and 24 may not have been as great. In our own time, 16-year-olds rarely have much life experience beyond going to school, maybe learning to drive, maybe working a very part time first job. If they do have greater responsibilities, it's usually because something happened that forced them to grow up extra fast, and not something pleasant.

To make your 16-year-old character and your 24-year-old character equals, they would have to have comparable life experiences, and they would have to somehow be equal in power. Both being witches could be a leveler, but it depends on how it works. If she just learned she's a witch and he's known he was one since he learned to talk, that's another power imbalance. If it's the other way around, that could be pretty equalizing.

In those stories about young-seeming immortals who are actually 100+ years old dating actual teenagers, typically those immortals have spent their 100+ years of immortal life living as teenagers. Certainly that's so in Twilight and Tuck Everlasting. So, they're arguably still teenagers, not. having experienced adult life.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

I agree that in Twilight Edward seems to be frozen around high school age. He doesn't really have the maturity that goes with a much older person. This is fairly common in YA/Teen works where there is an immortal (or supernaturally old) love interest. A better example might be Angel in the Buffy television show--given his history, he's clearly not frozen in a teen or young adult state. In part, the answer to whether this is a problem for readers/viewers seems to depend on whether they like the underlying work. For example, people may criticize Edward as a creep for his, but if they like the Buffy show Angel gets a pass for the same thing (and for creepy behavior).

Edward is a creep, for plenty of reasons that have nothing to do with his real age. His actions scream abuser. Stalking? Check. Controlling? Also check. Emotional blackmail? That too.

Oh, but it's okay because Bella is The One, and she's going to live happily ever after with him.