Drakevarg
Troubadour
You're right, I misspoke and should've paid more attention to my post.
What I mean is, maybe the "self-insert" is a valuable part of the discussion on the fan fiction sites, but I don't think it is elsewhere.
And I think the idea that the problem is "immersion breaking" is necessary to make the notion measurable and definable as a problem. If it doesn't even break immersion, then who cares? The Mary Sue defies belief.
The Mary Sue character is so "blessed by the narrative" that it breaks immersion.
Does that work a little better?
Yes, probably. I rather doubt you can really call a Mary Sue out if their inherent amazingitude doesn't pull you out of the story.
EDIT: Got ninja'd by FifthView. Good points there, though I'm sure the underlying causes for Sueness are even more broad and varied than their manifestations. Whole other can of worms beyond just trying to define the bloody things.
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