Transitory Groups

[Finchbearer]

Do you have any transitory groups in your stories; travellers, migrants, gypsies or any other marginalised group of people who exist on the periphery of common society?

Describe what they are? And what do they bring to your plot?

 

[skip.knox]

There are two things here: itinerants and marginalized people.

The notion of marginalization presents some interesting angles when in a fantasy world. By our-world understanding, there's a dominant culture and marginalized people are those whom the dominant culture rejects or denigrates in some way, either individually or systemically.

Most (not all) fantasy worlds are different, in that there are multiple cultures in play. In my own Altearth, for example, there are elves, dwarves, humans, ogres, orcs, and trolls. All "intelligent", without getting into definitions of that. Each has its own culture and each has prejudices and stereotypes regarding the others. But even within any one of those cultures there is room to "marginalize" certain groups. Fantasy, along with SF, offers opportunities for exploring what being marginalized means, or might mean, along with what "dominant culture" might mean.

As for transient groups, here again there are lots of opportunities. Some people might simply be migrant--anything from economic opportunity to fleeing oppression to being displaced persons due to war or natural (or magical!) disaster. That's different from those who are more or less permanently on the road more or less by choice. And there I would distinguish between the individual (we might call them tramps or hobos) and the group.

Both those again offer great opportunities for the fantasy writer. Is a human tramp different from an ogre tramp?

I'll offer up two groups from Altearth. One is the wagoneers. These are elves who travel in groups from place to place, always on the road, though traveling a general route. These have elements of the Romani about them, but also have unique aspects. For example, wagoneers are the news service. Elves have far better memory than do humans, and they can recite long passages verbatim at need. They gather news at one locale, and speak it at the next. They have a pretty good sense of what's relevant to the locals, so wagoneers are not merely reporters but are also their own editors. As you might expect, wagoneers are also traders and redistribute goods as well as news. All within elf communities--they don't pay much attention to the affairs of ogres or dwarves and such.

Quite different are the dwarf build camps.

Dwarves are highly prized for their skills with large, complex construction projects. Such projects can take months or even years to complete, so something like a temporary town gets created, populated entirely by dwarves and regulated by themselves. Some dwarves are resident for the full length of the build, while others are there only for the time their skill-set is needed. The build overseer is probably the only individual who can keep track of it all. A build camp is always valued, even privileged by the host entity--a lord, a town, or some other institution--and there's a fair amount of traffic between the two, but it's never permanant, always transitory. Eventually the thing is built, and the dwarves move on.

 

[Renè Williams]

Yes, quite a number in my world due to the way society has 'evolved'. Mainstream society is pretty much only housed within 3C cities (Capital Cities Coalition, although some smaller cities have been brought under this banner that aren't the capital cities of the eight respective provinces of Lydia Major) on the mainland and the U.T.T (United Terron Territories)(Both names are WIP/Placeholders but probably keeping the 3C designation) on the other, smaller continent.

Everything outside of city limits is known as The Wilds, with each territory having it's own geography, flora, fauna, etc. But this also means any small towns are pretty much cut off from Mainstream society in major ways, some more then others, and all the nomadic groups are seen as a sort of negative aspect as they are helpful as much as harmful to travelers and local species. I won't describe each one, especially because I'm leaving myself room to come up with more as necessary, but for instance one of these Nomadic groups all share a similar Gift, which is being Shifters or people who can change there physical form, and this is because that Gift is seen as taboo and is illegal to use within any 3C city limit and many other towns have outlawed them as well either out of fear in the past or precedent in the present. This applies to anyone with the Gift to touch anothers mind, or alter genetics in anyway outside of approved medical purposes.

Almost anyone who ends up being born with/forming within them a Gift that society has made taboo or outlawed the use of ends up becoming what you described and so most go to join one of the groups of nomads or find a town willing to accept them, or even more rarely, give up their Gift to the Seekers in a process that is known to kill at least 50% of the time.

The Seekers are an interesting case of a group that historically was this but that grew so big and well known that they now are in the 3C to an extent and have sort of control of the most northern territory of HighWoode in conjunction with the Luminaries, the re-curring hero's of the planet. People used to think they were cold blooded murders in search of power but later accepted they only take Gifts from people who can prove they truelly are ready to give it up at the risk of their lives and the one accepting the transfer (Which isn't perfect, but i don't want to spoil the intricacies of Seeker Magick here)

Less known through the first book is how society treats those with no Gift, but the hints are there that they are apart of almost every aspect of society and seen by many as the lowest rung on the ladder but since they pose no danger or harm, aren't cared much about in terms of where they are, what they do, etc.

Anyone from OtherSide is seen basically as unwelcome on mainland Lydia Major outside of a single, coastal city to the east that's only been in existence for less then 100 years to see if the two societies can even try and get along face to face again after so, so long spent on other sides of the planet from each other. And OtherSide has it's own groups of people since they are hard against people having free use of their Gifts or having over a certain classification/level of Gift.

 

[pmmg]

I am hesitant to give a direct answer to this question cause that kind of like giving away too much of the story and would hurt the mystery of it if any wanted to read.

But, I do have many groups who are on the outskirts of the more dominant populations. To some extent, there is conflict between them. And since conflict is kind of the key ingredient of story, it brings kind of a lot.

The migrations of peoples, and the exploitation of some groups and the dominion of others is kind of a lot of what my book 4 is about. There are long histories in the story, and various groups have their on version of things. Having these has added a lot of the story reasons for events, and IMO fleshed out the world more showing it as an expansive place with much behind what exists in most of the characters limited perspectives.

 

[Queshire]

The great city states in my setting look like they could have come from a cyberpunk setting. Artificial spirits fulfill the role of AI, mana screens flicker like holographic computer terminals and golem mecha assist the police. Between the wards worked into these great cities, the powerful organizations that call them home and the Immortal Archmages who rule over them a large number of civilians gather to them in order to benefit from the protection they provide against the monsters that call the world home. It's common to see slums spring up around them that are technically outside the city's wards proper, but close enough that can still flee into the city in case of an attack. A lot of the times these slums will have warded sections of their own, but they're of lesser power than the great wards of the city.

Some people don't like the city though. It's expensive, noisy, etc. Rural towns also feature wards protecting them, but they're of a lesser variety. Still, so long as you pick the right place to build they're mostly safe. They might feature advancements like mana screens or a golem mech serving as a tractor, but they're a lot more down to earth. The main reason they're not more popular is because there's just not as many opportunities to advance your magic while there and since advancing your magic can lead to such cool things as immortality that ends up as kinda a big deal. They often end up regarded as country bumpkins from those in the great cities.

Then there are those who avoid both the great city states and the smaller rural towns. Well, they'll often have some of their clans members living in the great cities, but for the most part they live out in the wilds. These guys are the closest to traditional fantasy fare. You could expect to meet not-vikings among their number or residents of hidden ninja villages. This life is a double edged sword. They have to deal with monsters the most, but the cores obtained from monsters allows them to advance their magic. They don't have the wealth to just buy cores or organize hunting expeditions like the powerful factions of the great city, but their life style still lets them advance.

Finally, because of the ever present threat of monsters overland travel is dangerous. Relatively few monsters can fly at the heights that airships travel so those are popular among those who can afford them. Not everyone can. Now traveling from a rural town to the nearest city state is generally safe enough, but overland travel between city states often takes the form of heavily guarded caravans. These caravans often feature domesticated monsters as mounts since the mount's mana will help dissuade feral monsters from attacking even if the mount can't actually do anything with that mana.

 

[Finchbearer]

There are two things here: itinerants and marginalized people.

Quite right. I wanted to encompass both itinerants and marginalised groups within the original post. Often I feel these two factors go hand in hand. You have people who are travelling to a fixed location such as migrants, and you have people who travel as part of a culture and lifestyle, such as gypsies, (or travellers as they get called more often here in the UK).

It’s an interesting topic, and I already have both migrants and travellers (gypsies) in my setting. There’s a significant traveller community here where I live, and often you see them living in dilapidated caravans at the side of busy roads living next to piles of aggregate that they use in part to make a living with. They certainly live on the outskirts of society, and many exist in a kind of ‘underworld’, filled with petty and major crime. The children often only attend school up to high school age, marry young, and have lots of children. Many still live true transitory lives, constantly moving from one place to another. I think it’s hard for outsiders to understand a culture like that without marginalising them. They don’t fit into what society expects of them, and often receive judgement.

There’s always a constant stream of migrants at any one time, and for many different reasons as has been pointed out. I have people fleeing a country to the south in my own story setting due to an oppressive change in governance, and they are in many ways a major part of the plot. If you’re always moving around, how does this affect the way you live? That’s the question I ask myself when creating these groups within my setting, though I realise this has not been fully thought through yet.

I’m considering introducing perhaps one or two main characters from these marginalised groups making them front and centre stage.

 

[Devor]

I've got tons of different groups in my setting, but no transients to speak of. The setting is a peninsula on the south side of the continent with a bit of a racial history to it. A big empire swept in from the mainland hundreds of years ago, bringing sweeping changes and diversity, then they lost control of it, leading to its current countries, which have bickered and diverged ever since. Before the empire came through, the fairies were able to gather a lot of magic, leading to a big number of seelie races in the area. Recently their main home castle was destroyed and their numbers have been decimated, partly by militia-type groups, so they could be compared to a transient group like refugees, but they're ultimately native, and aren't going anywhere.

I might give transient groups like refugees or the Romanians a bit of thought, but it's a busy setting as it is, so I'm not sure if I can find a place for it.

((edit))

Woops, I forgot! I was thinking too much about humans.

So, this peninsula is a hotbed of "seelie" magic.... but there are three of these hotbeds in the world, and a variety of fairy-types which can spring up here and there even outside of those hotbeds. So there are a couple of fairies based on the folklore of Africa who were kind of like pilgrims, on their way to visit, but they arrived too late, after it was destroyed, and so they don't have the resources to get back home. I also plan to introduce characters from one of the other seelie hotbeds, based on fairies from Japan, in one of the later books. I don't plan to ever feature characters from the third hotbed, which would be based on Native American folklore, because I don't know how well I could balance all the real world implications of it. Finally, I have notes about a story which would take place after all five books, where a couple of characters would join the Anjana, a group of sprite-like fairies that would travel the rest of the continent, who in the traditional folklore use their magic to bring gifts when they travel. It'd be like some kind of fantasy-version of a Star Trek series.

 

[skip.knox]

I have another kind of traveler, which is elves. Not all of them, but a goodly number will do something like a dream quest or walkabout. They leave their current community and go somewhere else. Maybe they settle elsewhere, maybe they return, sooner or later. They generally travel alone, but sometimes you'll see bands of them. Always on foot. When asked why they don't go on horseback, they'll say when you don't know where you're going, why try to get there faster?

Other folk have various names for these, including Wanderers or Peregrines, but also "those damn, theivin' elves" and other epithets. Between the elf Third Eye (which to many is the Evil Eye) and the natural suspicion of the settled toward the rootless, a wanderer is not always welcomed. On the other hand, a peregrinator (you can tell I haven't really chosen a name) prizes independence and does not look for handouts, shelter, or rescue.

Elves don't have a good explanation for any of this. Sometimes you just let go -- that's as profound an explanation as you're likely to get.

 

[Renè Williams]

I have another kind of traveler, which is elves. Not all of them, but a goodly number will do something like a dream quest or walkabout. They leave their current community and go somewhere else. Maybe they settle elsewhere, maybe they return, sooner or later. They generally travel alone, but sometimes you'll see bands of them. Always on foot. When asked why they don't go on horseback, they'll say when you don't know where you're going, why try to get there faster?

Other folk have various names for these, including Wanderers or Peregrines, but also "those damn, theivin' elves" and other epithets. Between the elf Third Eye (which to many is the Evil Eye) and the natural suspicion of the settled toward the rootless, a wanderer is not always welcomed. On the other hand, a peregrinator (you can tell I haven't really chosen a name) prizes independence and does not look for handouts, shelter, or rescue.

Elves don't have a good explanation for any of this. Sometimes you just let go -- that's as profound an explanation as you're likely to get.

Your elves explanation gives them a very Zen or Buddhist vibe, which is quite interesting.

 

[skip.knox]

>Your elves explanation gives them a very Zen or Buddhist vibe, which is quite interesting.
Yet another example of how the reader will see things not intended by the author. I see the connection, but I did not have that angle in mind when developing this. Altearth is more like a painting I have on an easel in a room somewhere. Once in a while I wander by, a thought takes me, and a daub of paint goes on, maybe on blank canvas and maybe over the top of something previous. Not quite random, but hardly well-planned.

 

[Finchbearer]

The great city states in my setting look like they could have come from a cyberpunk setting. Artificial spirits fulfill the role of AI, mana screens flicker like holographic computer terminals and golem mecha assist the police.

Ghost in the Shell comes to mind in Neo-Tokyo.

 

[RawkusSpectre]

Do you have any transitory groups in your stories; travellers, migrants, gypsies or any other marginalised group of people who exist on the periphery of common society?

Describe what they are? And what do they bring to your plot?

In my profile entry, which is forever lost to my old username here as I've forgotten the credentials, I had a group called the grays.

They were posited in the story as introductory conflict, to get the story going but had a much larger role to play in my vision for how the plot went.

They were called the grays because the society in contact with them, the weltithe, had never been able to establish peaceful contact. Their existence next to each other in this particular charter, a swamp town, was always eccentric and impasse. So this was the introduction of discrimination. The reason it was to play a part was in delivering notions about knowing someone before you've ever had the chance to actually cooperate with them on anything.

They were nomads too, historically. Their history as it was told by a representative of another nation, the Ouvari, was old. And throughout history they left staples in some places like this swamp, but also emigrated around to remain closed off and this was according to the fervor and peace status of other nations with each other. The grays, or more properly the Therlydrath, I'll say that because I can't recall what I called them but in their language this meant dragon's heart or some such. I gave them their own almost dead language, we're not guardians of anything, but they revered the power of the dragons so highly they swore to keep them culled from overtaking the world.

They are the time of their introduction in the story were marginalized. Hungry, sick, acting oddly and as such the weltithe had sought a means of eradicating them, spooked by their eccentric history with them. Truth was they found an artifact, unearthed in one of their hovels in the swamp, and it was mind controlling their members to fight.

Inner turmoil was emaciating them.

(All of this story is (c)Andres Meza --i've had my work pirated before so no offense to readers and I don't mean to seem arrogant).

Nice discussion peace!

 

[Finchbearer]

The subject came up when I wrote a market scene where travellers are coming through in their droves as they make their sort of yearly migration eastwards - and I thought? Is this representation really the best I can give? We always look at them from the outside and see a problem, but what if I were to go inside and write a character navigating my epic fantasy world, filled with magic from the perspective of the marginalised. Someone who has no roots other than their own culture and traditions that is ever moving onwards, always running from something. What are they good at? What are their own aspirations for life? How do they navigate the challenges of the world they exist in? How do they view those living inside the system?

 

[skip.knox]

you used the word "droves", which brought to mind another itinerant group: drovers. That is, people who manage livestock.

With sheep, this means transhumance--taking the herd into the mountains in summer, back into lower lands in the winter. This was a huge business in late medieval and early modern Spain.

With cattle and horses, it means bringing herds to market. I can think of the big herds in Hungary that were driven into markets in Bavaria, but I'm sure there were others further north. And elsewhere, of course, but I don't know those. Anyway, definitely European cowboys driving hundreds of head along dusty roads, probably to the dismay of anyone else trying to get anywhere at the same time. Plenty of opportunity there for conflict with locals, as well as all sorts of confrontations once the markets were reached, the herd sold, and the drovers left with money in their pockets.

Now I think about it, this would be something some of the Altearth elves might join, at least for the length of a drive.

 

[Finchbearer]

Are the words inherently connected skip?

We still have old drovers roads where I live, the term of which I have used in one of my works. But my understanding of them was more of locality - farmer droving their cattle or flocks to other pasture.

Droves to me means in large number so I assume they are connected.

 

[Queshire]

Well, if you're talking about cowboys driving cattle to market then there's naturally the wild west. I'm not sure if they're what most people think of when it comes to transitory groups though.

Boom towns could be interesting to look at though. In a lot of ways they're entirely made up of transitory peeps.

 

[Mad Swede]

Yes, such people do exist in my setting. But they're not on what you might call the periphery of society, they're an accepted part of a society where winters can be long and hard.

In that sense these characters build on the real life travelling market sellers (so-called knallar) we have here in Sweden. These sorts of travellers first appear in Sweden in the 1500s and they originated in what's called Sjuhäradsbyggden, the area around Borås and Tranemo. People in this area had a royal dispensation from the law restricting the selling of goods and wares to merchants in each town, so they were able to travel around the country selling things like knives, spoons, wooden plates and bowls, pottery, pelts, cured meats, sausages etc. The original term for these people is gårdfarihandlare and they developed their own dialect called månsing. The term knalle is a later name for them, thought to come from the word knalla meaning to walk slowly.

A real-life example would be the late "Vild-Hasse", real name Bengt Hans Erik Bengtsson, who died late last year. Vild-Hasse was the son of a sawyer and spent his early years as a soldier. After he'd left the army he spent the winters in his home just outside Malung curing pelts, carving wooden figures, making elk and venison sausages etc. Come the late spring he'd hit the road, selling his products all over Sweden. His market patter was amazing, he used rhymes to sell his products. And I have to say that his venison sausages were excellent, as were his reindeer pelts.

Probably the best known Swedish literary description of such a person is to be found in Nils Holgersson (Nils Wonderful Journey) by Selma Lagerlöf, where the father of Åsa and Lilla Mats is such a knalle.

 

[Finchbearer]

Interesting tidbits overall, although a group of people who have a permanent home, where they live for at least half the year round, are they considered a true transitory group?

My understanding of this is that a group would need to have travel as a way of life, moving from one place to another an an inherent part of their culture for most of the year round if not all the time.

Migrants are a different kettle of fish. Either by force or by choice, people migrating from one country to another is a transitory life, but it usually comes with the goal of finding another permanent home elsewhere.

 

[Finchbearer]

Well, if you're talking about cowboys driving cattle to market then there's naturally the wild west. I'm not sure if they're what most people think of when it comes to transitory groups though.

Boom towns could be interesting to look at though. In a lot of ways they're entirely made up of transitory peeps.

And the …United States

 

[RawkusSpectre]

The subject came up when I wrote a market scene where travellers are coming through in their droves as they make their sort of yearly migration eastwards - and I thought? Is this representation really the best I can give? We always look at them from the outside and see a problem, but what if I were to go inside and write a character navigating my epic fantasy world, filled with magic from the perspective of the marginalised. Someone who has no roots other than their own culture and traditions that is ever moving onwards, always running from something. What are they good at? What are their own aspirations for life? How do they navigate the challenges of the world they exist in? How do they view those living inside the system?

Yeah I think when characters and groups or settings provide segueys in your writing it is always fun to consider the what ifs but it could send your story in other directions or rabbit holes. Good literature doesn't necessarily weigh good and bad, but it recognizes situations in a light that is going to create a or add to the main story. The combinations behind it really are the fun part.