Writing Course

[xxyesenia25]

I was wondering if you guys took some sort of writing class to write? If you did, do you think it helped? I am currently writing a story and got curious for writing courses and if you guys took any? Thank you for your time!


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[Garren Jacobsen]

I took this class, quite literally. I mean I was in that lecture and you might be able to hear my voice.

I'm the dude that says something about meandering in relation discovery writing. Yeah, I'm practically famous.

 

[xxyesenia25]

Now I can say I know someone famous! Thank you for sharing this really appreciate any help.


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[DragonOfTheAerie]

I've never taken any writing courses; I had to learn almost everything the hard way!

 

[Penpilot]

I've taken some writing courses. I learned a lot, but nothing I couldn't learn on my own from just writing. And most of what I learned didn't necessarily relate to the mechanics of writing.

The first writing course I took, I took in college. The way the course worked was we each brought a three-page piece to class every other week and read it aloud. Through happenstance, I happened to end up being the first student of the semester to read what they wrote while the whole class stared and listened.

Lesson learned? You can't be so afraid to put yourself out there, and if you do, rare will anyone laugh at you because they're all in the same boat.

I found the usefulness of the class depended quite a lot on the other students. Get a bunch of thoughtful people and things can be fantastic. Get a bunch of thoughtless people, who only like to hear themselves yap, then things don't go so well.

I've told this story before, but one time, a student was so relentlessly harsh in their critique of another, they almost brought the other student to tears. And that first student really didn't give a shit. F--k people like that.

 

[skip.knox]

The advantage of a writing course is that it makes you write and then gives you feedback. You can do this on your own, of course, but there is no one cracking the whip or setting the expectation to produce N pages a session, so slacking off is more likely, and the quality of the feedback you get is much more hit and miss. Sturgeon's 70% Law applies here.

The advantage is also the risk. If you are a writer unaccustomed to getting harsh critiques, a writing course can be pretty hellish. This may make you stronger, but it can also drive some hopeful writers off writing altogether. The hard core corps will naturally say if you can be driven off, then you should be, but others take a more forgiving view.

Like all education, you will get more out of it if you put more into it. It's not going to _make_ you a better writer, it will only provide an environment in which you may perhaps make yourself a better writer.

 

[xxyesenia25]

Thank you everyone for your words. I think I will hold off on taking any courses and concentrate on writing as much as I can.


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[Incanus]

Ooh, hey, what's Sturgeon's 70% law? And would that be Theodore?

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Writing classes are hit and miss, mine missed bad enough I never took another, I skipped out on a chance at the Iowa Writers Workshop... foolish in hindsight but I was ed burnt out, and my classes to that point were just that lame. I'm sure the good ones are worth it, but, there are probably more worthless than worthwhile courses, depending on where you are with your writing of course.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

I've gotten so far on my own I don't know if a writing course would do me any good. What I really need to be learning more about is the publishing process.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I've never taken a writing course. I guess I like to do things the hard way...by stumbling a whole lot. They say it takes a million words to get proficient...it took me more than 3mil. Meh. Done now...

Writing courses can be really helpful, but the thing that helped me most was reading for other new writers. After reading thirty or forty weak manuscripts...you can't stand to read your own weak writing, and things certainly change...quickly. The more you can work with other writers and get a feel for what kinds of told folks use, what works, what doesn't, (and be reading that whole time, remember), the quicker you can sort of "jump the line" and start getting to the good stuff--the real understanding of what makes a novel really snag a reader and what's just fluff or ho-hum.

I was thinking about taking some writing courses, or even maybe giving a college course a try...but the thing is, I feel like I might be way too familiar with all the things I'd be "taught" and still come out of it with the same problems--how to actually DO the writing I'm trying to do.

See, I've read a lot of okay books that had GREAT concepts. Most of the time, when people say they didn't like a manuscript, they aren't saying, "I didn't like how the MC lied to her best friend and it got him killed." Sure, they may HATE that that happened, but mostly, what they disliked, was the execution of a concept. Over and over, people say, "Good concept, but the execution wasn't where it needed to be." I'm not sure I've ever heard of a class teaching execution. They have you read things, learn about symbolism, foreshadowing, outlining, creating plots/ mysteries, but I've never (even in Sanderson's lectures) really heard of someone getting to the nitty-gritty of HOW to make a story really sparkle and captivate an audience. Classes tend to focus on the hard facts. Grammar. Sentence structure. What a 3D character needs. Etc. But the thing that makes folks fall in love with books isn't any of those things. I mean, sure those are important, but they're the tip of the writing iceberg. The thing you need is voice, cleverness, and luck. And that stuff is damn hard to teach.

As a newer writer, I think the best thing you can do is trade work with some people you really like, trust, and share a goal with. If you're all working toward the same kind of quality, you'll be able to push each other, motivate each other, and deal out the harsh truth in a respectful and encouraging way. I've been really lucky to have the partners I've had. I'd definitely recommend this as a great (and free) way to improve rapidly. But if you're more suited to a classroom than long phone calls and huge emails and reading the same chapter multiple times for a friend, then a class might not be a bad idea. Just try to get an idea ahead of time what you're hoping to get out of it. And remember, there's more than one way to skin a cat...or write a story. So folks like to pretend that their way is the only option, and simply put, what works for one person isn't necessarily going to work for another. We all have our strengths and weaknesses, and while I'd like to say we can overcome all that shit and just be great with practice, the truth for me, is that my weaknesses have been really hard to mitigate. So, I rely heavily on people I think are super smart and honest, and I trust to always have my back.

Find your strengths, take some risks, and surround yourself with friends who aren't afraid to give you the real truth. That doesn't mean accept all negative feedback as honesty, because there is a lot of bitterness and jealousy floating around in this industry. But once you find someone to trust, you'll know. Let that person tell you what they love about your work, and believe them. Embrace that positive feedback and repeat it as much as you can.

Best wishes!

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Last few lectures by Sanderson @ BYU go into some publishing info.

 

[skip.knox]

What is Sturgeon's 70% Law? I confess to name dropping. Yes, that's Theodore Sturgeon.

I had heard a version, which I have repeated numerous times. But this time, given this august audience, I figured I'd better do some fact checking. One cannot do better than James Gunn, so I present that, herewith. You will note the adjustment in the percentage.

"When people talk about the mystery novel," Ted said, as I remember, "they mention The Maltese Falcon and The Big Sleep. When they talk about the western, they say there's The Way West and Shane. But when they talk about science fiction, they call it 'that Buck Rogers stuff,' and they say 'ninety percent of science fiction is crud.' Well, they're right. Ninety percent of science fiction is crud. But then ninety percent of everything is crud, and it's the ten percent that isn't crud that is important. and the ten percent of science fiction that isn't crud is as good as or better than anything being written anywhere."

For Gunn's somewhat longer account, read the original:
http://www.physics.emory.edu/faculty/weeks//misc/slaw.html

 

[Sheilawisz]

Hello Xyesenia, and first of all Welcome to Mythic Scribes!

In answer to your question, I want to say that I have never taken a Writing Course in my life. For writing, I think that the best path is to read various authors so you develop a larger vocabulary and a better ability to command the language in question. It's also necessary to actually practice your writing and narrating abilities (I recommend starting with short and simple stories), so you will gradually develop your own voice and style.

You will discover what style, genre and length of stories is best for you, but please keep in mind that loads of discipline, patience and especially a lot of love for your stories is necessary.

It takes a million written words to get proficient? That's not true. Even if you hit a Tennis ball with a racket a million times, it does not mean that you will become as good as famous Tennis players out there. When somebody asks advice about things like this, people rarely mention that elements like natural talent and passion are crucial.

I believe that the most important thing to become a great writer/storyteller is to find... the sparks, the moment when a story really ignites a fire inside of you and then all magic starts to happen. A person can have perfect writing skills, but without a great story to tell there will be nothing special taking place.

Getting and accepting critique from others is useful, but only if it comes from the right people.

Please do not try to become perfect in writing. You do need to develop good writing and language skills, but the best advice that I can give you is to find (or maybe they will find you!) the best stories for you to tell.

I wish you the best in your quest!

 

[Holoman]

I took a free course with the Open Uni, it was ok, but not great. You get what you pay for I guess.

I feel too old to do a writing course now, plus I worry it will suck the fun out of it. I have tried to learn writing how I learn other things, first reading books about it, then having a go at it myself, and then reading other author's work and seeing how they do things.

Some of the books I read are Dwight Swain's The Selling Writer, and a couple from the Write Great Fiction series, Plot and Characters.

I think it's important to learn some of the theory of story making and try writing yourself before you start reading other peoples work, because it gave me a whole new perspective when reading and I saw how clever authors were being, and also identified areas were I thought they hadn't done so well but could figure out why I thought that.

 

[Russ]

It is kind of amusing to see people who have never taken a writing class comment on their utility.

My wife and I have both taken writing classes, both good and bad, and we both would tell you that good ones are worth their weight in gold for a number of reasons. Bad ones, not so much. Bear with me for a longer than average post while I try to talk about why the classes can be valuable, sometimes for obvious reasons, sometimes for not so obvious reasons.

First thing I would say to people before they take writing classes is that you need to know yourself as a learner and a writer first. Some people learn better from just reading books, some people do better when there is course, instructor, lectures and fellow students to interact with. If you are the type of person that learns well in a classroom environment with a structure curricula then a writing class or course may be very useful to you.

You also need to know yourself to know what level or type of course you need. My wife and I started taking some basic courses from a local company, and in due time, my wife went on to get her Masters in Genre Fiction, and I went on to teach at that program. You don't want to get into a course that is either too far ahead, or two far behind your level. I saw students in courses that were either not ready yet for that work, or were doing the work in their sleep because it was too easy. Unless you are chasing the credential taking a course that does not challenge you is just a waste of time.

You also have to know how serious you are about writing as a career. My wife has know for a long time she wants to make her living writing fiction, so investing the time and money to get her masters made sense. I have never had that same career focus on writing, so for me, 4-6 day courses or twice a week for eight weeks, or just a weekend seminar has worked out fine.

One of the non-obvious advantages of taking writing courses is the people that you meet and become friends with. I took two substantial writing courses with top notch spec pic authors and became friends with them, and have remained friends for many years. I had dinner with one of them a few weeks ago (I think I took the course maybe 15 years ago) and this chap generously spent a couple of hours giving us advice on marketing my wife's debut novel. My wife met her long time writing mentor while she was studying for her masters, and they remain in touch to this day, and will be getting together next week in NYC. Many of the people we both met through that masters program remain our livelong friends and they have spread out through the publishing industry and have become people we both trust and rely on for help in the writing/publishing field. The internet is a fine way to meet people, but meeting folks face to face in a course can build an even better bond.

To my mind, unless you have significant difficulty functioning socially, or you already have all the answers, if you can afford a good course and have some near you I would commend anyone to a good writing course. Your writing can take revolutionary steps forward when you hear ideas and learn concepts others are using to make their writing better. And this goes for very successful writers as well. You will see lots of NYT bestselling writers crammed in to hear Steve Berry talk about how to use "psychic distance" to make your books more powerful, or Donald Mass talk about the latest scientific research in what makes readers enjoy fiction at Thrillerfest for example.

Courses with good instructors are an effective way to learn no matter what field you are in. There is no reason to believe writing is any different. If you are serious about becoming a better writer you really should consider taking courses as one way of doing that.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

I've gotten so far on my own I don't know if a writing course would do me any good. What I really need to be learning more about is the publishing process.

The Sanderson course does quite well in discussing the publishing process. That class helped catalyze how I think about approaching a story as well. It was phenomenal. Listen to the lecture linked above and then the rest as they arrive weekly.

 

[Heliotrope]

Knowledge = Power

I'm with Russ and Skip on this one. I believe that educating yourself is always a good idea, and if you want to get to the next level professional help is your best bet. I also believe what Skip is saying about the 90% rule. Some courses will suck and not be what you need. Others will be "worth their weight in gold" as Russ has said.

It was phenomenal. .

- Brian Scott Allan

^^^ Sentiments my experience will most of the writing courses I have taken. I have a Masters degree in English Lit, where I was forced to learn about the nuts and bolts of good Literature and how it is "done" and has been done since the first time humanity decided to write down stories. I absolutely do not believe that this was wasted time. I now teach English Lit and attend Writer's festivals/conferences yearly in order to brush up on what is new out there are far as technique and to see what the publishers are looking for, as well as to take back anything I've learned back to my classes and to teach other teachers who are teaching writing.

Because of my firm belief in knowledge is power I also attend a writing class every year at my local University, and this year I have some time off (my daughter has developmental issues) and so will be taking a part time online creative writing program. Like others have said, some of these courses have been bogus. Others have been invaluable.

When I'm not doing course work I'm reading craft books, listening to Pod casts, watching Videos like the one Brian Scott Allan posted, and yes.... reading, reading, reading, reading... But NOT just reading for fun. Reading to analyze what the author is doing.

And writing. Writing writing writing. Though not as much as I would like right now, sadly

Neil Gaiman on writing comics (but I think it applies):

"You'll do best if you realize that there is a lot to know. Most bad comics are written by people who don't know that there is anything to learn... (Many of them were written by writers who are successful in other fields.) Having something to say is fairly essential, too. "

*Later Edit:

" I think the best thing you can do is trade work with some people you really like, trust, and share a goal with. If you're all working toward the same kind of quality, you'll be able to push each other, motivate each other, and deal out the harsh truth in a respectful and encouraging way." - Caged Maiden

I agree with CM on this point 100%. It doesn't matter how smart you are, or how talented you are, or how inspired you are.... you need someone you can trust to give you feedback on your stuff. Even the pros have early readers and editors who read their stuff for them and tell them when something is working and something isn't working. Try to find a network of people you can trust who will be honest, but also understand what your goals are. People who are OK having discussions about what you are 'trying' to say or do, so they can help you achieve that vision. People who are OK with reading and re-reading the same scene over and over until you get it right. Poeple who can boost your confidence and force you to be brave and honest with yourself.

 

[Heliotrope]

For very quick and free information, these podcasts are great. I usually listen to them when I'm doing my chores, tidying up, or getting ready in the morning.

http://www.writingexcuses.com

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I wouldn't have been thrilled to pay for Sanderson's course, but as free lectures they are worth every penny, heh heh. But again this depends on where you are at in your writing. So much of Sanderson's lectures felt like old hat or 100 level stuff, but then I am old LOL, but I can imagine that at a more youthful stage I would've appreciated his story stuff more. When watching the lectures I tended to have an "ok, but..." whenever he talked about story. The publishing info was more interesting to me.

What in particular struck you with his story notions?

In my previous post I also didn't mention screenwriting courses at UCLA... those were worth it, because I did skip some of the intro level stuff... those would've been pointless because I didn't need them. But the upper level stuff, where you're also working with active pro screenwriters, was good stuff.

The Sanderson course does quite well in discussing the publishing process. That class helped catalyze how I think about approaching a story as well. It was phenomenal. Listen to the lecture linked above and then the rest as they arrive weekly.