Writing Course

[Sheilawisz]

Hello everyone.

Russ: I did not know that there are Courses that focus on the spiritual and enjoyable side of our craft, I accept that. However, Xyesenia asked about Writing Courses and that brings to my mind all the obsession about having perfect grammar, what is the best plot structure, the whole debate about adverbs, the passive voice stuff and so on.

It reminded me strongly of the very negative experiences that my sister suffered at Writing Courses. Please check out Kassan's recent article at the Home Page of Mythic Scribes, which explains pretty well how I feel about this.

Also, please stop calling my personal views and feelings on Storytelling a false dichotomy. I know that I am very unusual, and my stuff may be false to you and others but it's very real and wonderful (not to mention incredibly effective) to me. I know that I am not the only person like this, there are others out there and I want to be ready to help them in case they arrive in our site.

In fact, one of my best friends in Mythic Scribes decided to just abandon the community thanks to the fact that now the site is heavily focused on Publishing and Selling. The heavy Scientific Writing atmosphere also repelled my friend as much as it repels me, and sometimes I ask myself what the hell I am doing here but I want to stay anyway.

In case others like me show up here asking for help, I want to be here for them. I want to show them that there is an alternative to that surgical world in which the only way to become a good author is to learn tons of theory, earn fancy degrees and write a million words before you can produce something good.

I can provide examples of authors that produced great and even historic works without having attended courses, learned all the theory or written a million words. It's real, it can happen.

Just because you do not experience what we experience, it does not mean that it is false.

Stop the Amusing thing, please. Telling somebody that you find them amusing is quite insulting, unless that person is trying to be amusing intentionally. Do not do that again.

No, you never mentioned that natural talent is irrelevant.

However, others have said it and the general atmosphere in the site is that our craft is all about learning theory, calculating everything just right and just keep writing and writing until you become the next global phenomenon. Talent is very rarely mentioned as part of the equation, and that irks me a lot.

Many people (here as well as in other sites) dislike the idea that Talent exists, or they prefer to describe it as unimportant even in case they accept it's real.

Just take a look at This thread right here.

Now, I'll post something to try and offer assistance to people suffering from the Paralysis effect mentioned before in this thread. I hope it can help somebody, but in case anybody thinks that I am wrong, misleading or amusing please do not even reply to me.

When I have difficulty with creating a scene in one of my stories (whether it's the start of the story, or later) What I do is that I concentrate on the scenery, characters and emotions involved instead of how to actually write it. It's like this: Imagine that you are in a movie theater, and your story will be presented to you as a movie.

What do you see in the screen? What do you hear?

In my method, when a scene is giving me trouble I try to see, hear and feel as much as possible of the place and characters involved in that scene. What is my character thinking? What does my character want? What colors are there? Is it day, or night? Is it cold? Is there wind?

Imagine that you are present in the scene, yourself. That you can walk there, and touch, and breath...

I find that this can help a lot to break that paralysis moment, especially for people that really find it difficult to get past that first blank page and get their stories started. You need to get in contact with your story, you need to feel it because the whole process is similar to dancing together or (in the case of great stories) like falling in love.

Also, while you are working do not compare your writing or your story to other, famous great books that you have read. Your story is supposed to be special and unique, because it's your own. It does not matter if it's worse or better than others, what matters is that it will end up being what it is supposed to be.

I wish you the best in your journeys!

 

[FifthView]

For me, enjoyment and intuitive creativity are indeed totally incompatible with learning and theory.

On the surface, this seems really odd. Someone could misinterpret it to mean that you (or anyone who feels the same way) will remain in a perpetual rut, never improving, never understanding her own work (forming theories), etc.

I've been trying to find something Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote that had a major effect on me. It was something I already believed but hadn't formulated well for myself until I read it in one of his essays. Essentially, he said that no matter how true or important another's ideas, if we cannot reconcile them to our own understanding then they are useless and might as well be falsehoods; to hell with them. But the moment we can reconcile them to our own thoughts, so that they become true to us, then they are no longer that other person's ideas—they are our own.

That's a paraphrase. It relates to what I wrote in an earlier comment. I do believe learning and theory should be individual, personal pursuits even within a classroom or workshop environment. Each person should weigh whatever knowledge another offers, assess its worth in relation to her own pursuits and goals, and not take what is said at face value as some sort of inviolable doctrine received from an infallible authority. But also, I think, one should not be afraid of being exposed to that information, because a personal evaluation of it will easily prevent its adoption if it doesn't reconcile with personal pursuits and any adoption automatically transforms it into one's own idea. It is no longer his; it is mine. And I can do with it what I like.

I suspect that you already do this. Have you learned nothing new in all your visits to Mythic Scribes? Never been nudged by an idea or had that experience of an Aha! when someone commented on something that tied so well to what you do but described it in a way you'd never before considered—gained insight into your own efforts? And when you capitalize Storytelling and offer others a glimpse into your own process, you are delivering theory. It's just that these are your own theories that you've been formulating as you advance in your own pursuits.

So I think that when you say that learning and theory are incompatible with enjoyment and intuitive creativity, I think you mean that trying to incorporate what another person says you must do, when those ideas are not in alignment with your own pursuits, is a roadblock for the creative process. The moment a writer begins to attempt to write by following a template that another gives, out of some belief that that other person's template is some sort of inviolable recipe, all enjoyment and creativity is destroyed.

More generally, returning to the OP's question, I'd say that writing courses can do what you've said in this thread you are doing:

I am not strenuously trying to lead Xyesenia down my path, but I have the right to show it to him or her anyway and then it's his or her time to decide what to do in the journey.

A writing course can help to introduce a writer to a toolbox filled with tools that are new for the writer or help the writer come to a better understanding of her own processes. But they shouldn't be taken if a writer is merely looking for pre-formed templates to be followed without thought. It's still, and always will be, a personal pursuit.


Edit: I wrote the above while you were commenting and hadn't read your comments to Russ.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Hello FifthView.

I see that we are defining learning and theory in different ways. For me, it's like this: In Highschool, I was told that a story was always supposed to have that structure in which the tension rises, reaches a summit and then gradually descends into the ending. That was all, that's what telling stories was supposed to be.

They also spoke a lot about adverbs, and passive voice and how to be perfect... Quite similar to some discussions here in Mythic Scribes.

That's what the artificial learning and theory means to me.

I thought: "Hey, that's not how stories are in my mind! That's not how stories feel in my heart!" And I decided to write and narrate my stories in my own ways, following the path that I created for myself. I have learned and improved loads, yes, but in a natural way. Reading great books from other authors influenced and shaped my style a lot, for example.

Michael Ende and Lewis Carroll in particular are my mentors.

Also, the decent vocabulary and near-natural skills that I have in English took years and years to develop, because my native language is Castilian. Still, I feel that English is always one step ahead of me and I have to keep learning.

I started to write my first ever large, serious Fantasy novel back in 2002. I created and completed it following the methods and style that I developed naturally, and I am very happy that I was not exposed to the Scientific Path back then because it would have derailed me like a train crash.

That way of doing things is simply not for me. Me adopting such method would be like you adopting my Sudden Lightning Strike Inspiration and Going into the Zone stuff. I wish that others could experience what I experience because it's so wonderful to me, but perhaps it would not feel the same to others and I accept that.

My long time in Mythic Scribes has helped me to improve my English a lot, and also it caused me to write ten stories that I deeply love and that I would have never written in case I had never come here. It has also opened my eyes regarding other issues like Autism, but that's all. I felt like an extraterrestrial creature when I arrived, and I still feel quite alien here today.

Yes, I accept that Writing Courses can be beneficial but only for some people. Others will do much better with the natural path. Also a bad kind of Writing Courses can cause more damage than good (like it happened to my sister), so I wanted to let Xyesenia and other new authors to know that it's possible to do well without them.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I'm going to say one more thing about writing classes. I'm about to turn 36, a reasonably intelligent person, and the kind of person who learns really well from lectures, books, or practice. I'm not railing against classroom learning for any reason, but for me, practice and books like "Writing 21st Century Fiction" by Donald Maass have been really helpful.

Okay, about writing classes, all I was saying, was that it helps to know your goal, when deciding what kind of class works for you, or will benefit you. For instance, I'm sure we could all be better writers if we obtained a masters in English...but that's a heavy commitment for someone who just wants to get more out of their natural talent, right? So, would I suggest a new writer go to college for English? No. Go to college for 4-8 years for something you really want to do for a living, and don't count on writing books to be the big earning potential it might occasionally sound like. It isn't. Not unless you're really lucky. Because pure talent doesn't earn people six-figure advances.

Okay, so kinds of classes... someone mentioned libraries and under an oak tree, and I'm so much more inclined to say YES to this. Check out some free classes at community centers, some local critique groups or writer clubs. This is really good stuff. If they're at your level of competency, so much the better. If they're haughty and self-important, not so much. But see what you can find that sounds interesting, gets you talking and learning, and improving in general.

I took Sci-fi as a class in high school, and I was always an advanced English student. I've read classics and studied deeper meanings in the books we read for classes, but as far as whether it made me a better writer, it didn't. Well, maybe it did, but it wasn't significant in the grand scheme of a journey that's spanned 15 years. Put it that way.

I recently considered taking classes, actually. Perhaps I just think I'm in a weird place, and that's the reason that I haven't yet followed through. Personally, I'd like to attend a class where I'd be accompanied by other "ready to publish" writers. I don't want to take a "writing for beginners" course, because I just don't feel that's where I am, at this point.

Again, my previous post was just me saying why it wasn't the right choice for me, and what actually helped me improve, if Xysenia didn't actually want to pursue higher education as a means to being a better writer.

Now, taking all that into consideration, I think it's a bit silly that people like me, who don't feel cut out for an actual college-type education, shouldn't weigh in on this kind of subject. But this has gotten really off-track. This conversation isn't helping the person who asked for advice.

I'm not sure what's going on here on this forum anymore, but I've been absent since about when I posted my comment last January in the linked thread Sheila posted, there. For six months, I've barely even stopped in here to check in.

WTF is going on here? He have a bunch of new members who want to talk about their current issues...and we were all there, so we can understand how they feel, if we just step back a moment. And then the most benign subjects get heated because folks find themselves on opposing sides of just about everything related to writing theory.

Honestly, this is getting silly. Sure, Russ said "amusing" and that wasn't very respectful, but seriously, why can't we just let readers of his comment draw their own conclusions? The comment wasn't aimed at anyone specifically. Sheila, I think you need to relax a little. You have a clear path that you believe in very much, and that's fine, but your reaction on this is out of proportion. It's hard to take your theories seriously when you react so poorly. That isn't serving you well in the long run, because you are a representative of this site, and our codes of conduct. Please find more tactful ways to support new members and get across your points of view. Honestly, people will listen, if we can talk without antagonizing each other.


(this was where I want to make a point of no longer talking to anyone specifically. This is my general feeling about how this site has been heading for months now).

Hey, there's a lot of folks here, with all kinds of backgrounds. Honestly, I've listened to hundreds of people's opinions on this site, in the last few years, andI've naturally gravitated to the folks who express opinions that mesh with my own. It's natural for people to do that. Sometimes it's a mistake in the long run, and folks don't really mesh, and sometimes it's a friendship in the making. So let people make up their own minds. I've gotten shitty responses to some of my questions, and they're like water off a duck's back. Let it go. Don't become besties with that person who gave you an opinion you think doesn't make sense to you.

Now as for this site, we have a unique environment. We have people who are brand new writers, who have nothing but a collection of short stories or poems like I did in high school, all full of those things that teenagers find so dreadfully important (and dark and emotional, in my case), and we have people who make a good living as writers and who are "living" many people's dreams. WE NEED TO RESPECT THAT!

We, who have been her the longest, we veterans of this forum, who organize things, run things, and otherwise coordinate with our fellow scribes, need to put our best foot forward. Always. When answering questions, as well as when welcoming new members. When writing our stories or interacting in the showcase. Especially when we're dealing with someone who is new here, or new in their own craft. It's IMPERATIVE that we put our nice face on, because it's intimidating, being new in a community and not having any friends. Not being sure of yourself. Not knowing how things go or what people mean when they give harsh feedback or a negative answer to a question.

Some folks will come right out and say, "I wouldn't ever do it the way you're proposing." And that's terrible! We should watch our mouths, because at the end of the day, this is our home. And we're all sharing it. And I, for one, want to come home and feel good about how my roommates are treating my stuff.

This forum has so much to offer to new writers. Where else can you get critique, help with research, find friends, AND share your work in a showcase or challenges? Nowhere. Stupid sites full of people who constantly self-promote and don't give a fig about anyone but themselves. I love this place, but I'm dangerously close to walking.

I came back today and wanted to belong to this community, but when I hear how we treat each other, I question whether this is the place for me. We used to be really civil, even when discussing opposing sides and disagreements. I vote for returning to mutual respect and general care for our community.

Sure, there are some subjects that get people up in arms. Sure, there are some fluid pantsers and some steadfast outliners. But overall, there's a whole lot of us between the poles. It gets really tedious for new members to see us fight on their first thread. And frankly, it's rude to them. (Sorry if you're not new and this isn't your first thread...I'm exaggerating).

Some of us will accept nothing less than publishable, professional writing from ourselves. Some of us use writing as an artistic expression, a therapy, or another sort of spiritual experience. Most of us are just writers who generally want to get better at what we're doing, so we can make the freaking decision ourselves, at some future point. That's it.

Sure, help with answers. Give people your honest advice for what you did, or how you chose to do something. The more opinions, the merrier, I say. But we're losing what once made this community strong. It was the only forum on the internet where we cared about each and every member. We cared about each other. And the site was more than a place for us to express our opinions, but a place to share the joy of our chosen hobby/ profession.

Let's keep this place safe. Let's welcome everyone to be themselves. Let's take care of each other again. Especially our new members.

 

[FifthView]

Sheila,

I do see, I think, what you mean.

Let's break it down to Storytelling vs Science.

I once broke it down like this: Science might tell us what is, what will be, and what once was; but it can't tell us what ought to be.

I formulated that idea when considering a different realm of debate–i.e., some of the hubbub in our society about science/rationality vs belief.

I do not want to get into any sort of political debate (something we are supposed to avoid on MS anyway), so I'll relate it to writing fiction by using a metaphor.

Science is the "ABC's of writing." In part I mean, quite literally, the alphabet and words formed from that alphabet. But it can't tell us what to do with that alphabet. It might tell us that d-o-g spells dog; but it can't tell us whether we ought to use that word in a given situation. Maybe we should use p-o-o-d-l-e instead. Or maybe our story will be better if we use c-o-u-g-a-r instead.

So the tools of writing are like the science (metaphorically speaking) but science can't tell us what we ought to do with those tools.

Even larger aspects of the story can have a science. The three-act structure is a tool. The science of writing can tell us this, but it can't tell us we ought to use the three-act structure for a particular story.

The science of writing might tell us that if we want to achieve an effect, we might use a particular tool. But it can't tell us that we ought to create that effect.

So I think that your primary point is that a writer who focuses on the science of writing might become aware of these tools, but simply being aware of them can never tell a writer what she ought to do with those tools. There's something else that comes into play, and a major part of telling a story is that something that can't be dictated by the science of writing.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Hello FifthView.

I am happy to see that we understand each other better now. Yes, that is pretty much why I emphasize so strongly the difference between writing and storytelling. To me they are totally different things.

Writing can be used for many things, telling stories is just one of them.

The story itself is a spiritual thing, something that comes from the mind of its narrator. It is then told by means of language, and language is recorded by means of writing. That's how I see it.

A person can know all of the technical tools for writing, but when it comes to tell a story there is something else that comes into play, like you said. I'll never say that having the tools and being an expert with them is useless, because writing well is part of the equation too, but the something else part is what I think is vital to our craft.

This entire discussion has given me an idea for my third article in Mythic Scribes, so thanks a lot for your words.

Maiden: I think that even with the occasional heated threads Mythic Scribes is still an extremely civil place if compared to most of the Internet. In fact the worst combats that I have seen in the community took place years ago, and since then nothing so serious has happened again.

We still are a great site that offers a huge variety of information and support.

I have considered the idea to leave not because of the occasional fights and other stuff (I have seen a lot of horrors in my time as a Moderator, believe me) but because of how alien I feel in comparison to most people here. I stay because I want to help others like me if they show up, and also because of my loyalty to Black Dragon.

About the incident with Russ: I felt very hurt because of his comment, and I see that it affected you too. What was I supposed to do? I come to this thread and I welcome our new member Xyesenia as warmly as possible, I give her the advice that I consider my best and I get called amusing.

I could have posted an official warning for him, but I thought that in that case everybody would accuse me of over-reacting or even of abusing my Moderator position. Look what happened instead: I simply sent the harmful comment right back, and some people are saying that I over-reacted anyway.

Being a Moderator is difficult sometimes.

So many people love you in this community, so I'll ask you to please do not leave. You and I have never been great friends, but you are a well-known and appreciated part of Mythic Scribes and it would not be the same without you.

Have a great afternoon!

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Personally, I'm not sure why anyone was even mildly annoyed by the use of amusing in either direction, LOL. My opinions have been called so much worse... and it still doesn't bug me. Maybe I've just developed dragon skin over the years.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Yeah, I wasn't offended by Russ' amusement, either. He had a point. It's like hearing a bunch of outliners talking about how "pantsing is no good". I mean, it's an opinion, and he was right, the first responses all came from people who don't have a higher education in English. So...it was what it was. Our opinions on how we make things work without writing courses.

Thanks, Sheila. I appreciate you not being offended by my comment. I really was trying to be general and it might have come off as an attack against you personally, which it wasn't meant to be.

My fear for this site is that some of us have been here for years, and we've seen all the "newcomer advice" sort of threads pass by many times, and all weighed in on them. I like to have discussions about writing craft, and welcome civil discussions about whatever subjects arise, but I've felt sometimes like there are sort of two factions here, the people who write for fun, and those who are focused heavily on publishing, and often the sides can come at each other rather combatively.

If someone said, "that theory might work for a hobby writer, but it's not viable for someone trying to get published," it might be taken offensively by people who prescribe to the theory in question, whether they are hobby writers or published successes. We have a few very successful writers on our forum, and while they might have great advice to give, most of us are still finding our place in the grand journey of writing. I just worry that heated debates on newcomer threads can be harmful to the newer members and present us as warring tribes, in some cases.

I felt sort of badly that a few of my threads have gone in this direction, and have stopped posting my progress and lessons I've learned, because I want to focus on my writing, and perhaps my viewpoints aren't valuable to many folks here. Meh. If people don't like them, I'm not going to waste my time posting the writing revelations I experience.

But I'm a veteran member. I'm not easily offended, even when people vehemently disagree with any of my practices. I feel like my work stands on its own, despite my methods and whether they work for others. And I'm still happy to share my experiences with the people who bothered to take down my email or PM me. But I do not want to see new members feel alienated or otherwise discouraged by some of the more experienced voices here. We were all new writers at one point, and had to discover our own truths, even when we disagreed with really successful writers, here or elsewhere.

My goal is to always keep an open mind, though I do have certain strong opinions, based on my experiences first-hand. I just want all members to remember that responding to questions is best when it keeps a respectful attitude (not aimed at anyone, just a general concern, especially with new writers) like when we give critique. Keep an open mind, and be respectful.

Hope our new members continue to feel welcomed and invited to participate in any way they feel like putting themselves out there for us to interact with. (Again, not aimed at anyone) I want this to remain a safe place for all to share their thoughts. This community is very valuable to me, and I want it to be so for everyone else, whatever they choose to write.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Hi Demesnedenoir.

I'll explain more about my reaction. Normally I am a very cold and even insensible person, but over a long time I have grown tired of people messing with me both in the Internet and in real life. It affects me especially when I am trying my best to be as nice as possible and offer the advice that I consider my best, and then something like that incident shows up.

I promise to have harder skin in the future.

Anyway I wanted to let everyone know that my second Article is coming soon, and thanks to it I am not going to intervene in threads like this one anymore. When a new person appears and asks for advice, I'll just post once to provide links to my articles and say something like: Please read about my views and feelings in writing and storytelling... In case all of that resonates with you, contact me.

That shall be enough to fulfill my desire to help and guide others like me, in case they show up.

 

[Chessie]

Okay...but this site isn't just for newbies. It's for writers of ALL levels. If someone leaves this community because there's too much of a focus on publishing and selling, then I'd like to know where those conversations are because frankly, as a writer who is focused on making money from my craft, I feel rather unsupported here at times. Many folks on this forum write as a hobby and they seem to be in the majority. What's disappointing to me, after being on this site a couple of years, is that productive conversations get heated for no reason!

Sheila, there is no "science" when it comes to writing. It's a creative activity. Writing classes focus on that creativity but they also teach how to draw in an audience. They teach how to construct paragraphs that are effective, characters that are realistic, etc. It honestly isn't any different than picking up a craft book from Amazon. I don't believe that writing is spiritual, but it is artistic, and so there are many different flavors of writers and stories. It's a bit offensive when you say "I just want to help people like me" because that creates a divide that isn't constructive for the site: new and old members alike.

Writing class is not equal to science. I studied Biology in college and trust me, writing classes are nothing scientific like Biology.

As Maiden said, we should support our fellow writers of all levels. We are a community and our experiences can help others along in their journey. I've learned a lot from these forums and from many of you. But I don't always feel supported because my focus is different than other writers here. Do I let that bother me? Not really. I've had other folks here come at me for the way I do things. Do I care? Not really. I talk to those I respect and enjoy and ignore the others. If people want to leave this forum because it's got too much of a focus on something they don't like then hey, maybe they're better off going somewhere else.

Writers of all levels and goals should be supported here. Just because one person has a bad experience in a writing class doesn't mean all writing classes are created equal. We all want to learn. We all want to improve. There's no reason why we can't glue together as a community. For heaven's sake, I love talking about writing because no one else in my life gives a crap. I love this site but I wish the negativity would take a chill pill.

 

[skip.knox]

A basic rule of discourse, people: no ad hominem attacks. That means, you can attack ... okay, I'll tone it down ... you can criticize the argument, but do not under any circumstances attack the person making the argument.

The converse of that is, try not to take it personally. Just because someone criticizes or even ridicules your argument does not necessarily mean they are ridiculing you. Whenever I am inclined to such a reaction, the first thing I do (well, I try to remember to do this) is walk away. Don't reply. Let it sit. Come back another hour or day and look with clear eyes at whether or not this is a personal attack. If it really is the latter, I say I do not respond to ad hominem attacks and I end the conversation there. I do not try to explain to the other person how their attack is wrong. It generally goes worse than nowhere, it goes off onto a thousand unproductive tangents.

Sometimes it helps to make points in different ways, so to quote a very old argument: hate the sin, not the sinner. Or to use another aphorism, you can give offense but that doesn't mean I have to take it.

All other points have been well covered by others on this thread. If I may summarize them: some writing courses are useful, others are not. And to close with a final, Internet-appropriate quote: YMMV.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Hello Chessie.

Yes, I agree that Science is not a perfect word to describe what I have been calling the scientific path in this thread. However, it's the best way that I have discovered to describe that and I am not the only one that has used this expression in particular. Please check Kassan's (Ankari) recent article, because he explains it very well.

I am not sure how to reply to your feelings that people who write for pleasure are the majority here, because I have been feeling exactly the opposite since a long time ago. So many people are really worried that if they do something wrong in their craft then readers will lose all attention, so publishers will not want their work.

I did not say that from now on I will help only others like me. I'll keep posting at World Building, Brainstorming and other Forums dedicated to imagination alone, but I do not want to keep talking about my story-creating processes anymore with everyone. The reactions to my views and ways have been mostly negative (even though other people consider me very inspiring) so I'll just stop participating in threads like this one.

My next Article will allow me to simply tell people: Hey, take a look! That's how I work. In case you like it, I can help you to learn my process and create your stories this way.

If you ever would like my help with something in your stories, tell me and I'll be delighted to provide any assistance that I can.

 

[RedMetalHunter]

Well, that went south fast. As a new person, I just want to say my experience here has been good. However, it is no where near as busy and active as I had anticipated. It makes me wonder what kind of animosity is going on behind the scenes. A forum of this size should be a lot more active. However, a forum this old is bound to have issues.

FWIW, seeing an exchange like this (when participation is low) is going to scare some folks off. Folks who are not interested in drama and personality conflicts. But, I have seen a lot worse.

Anyway, to the topic at hand. I would love to try a writing course, but the only ones within reasonable travel distance include yoga, meditation, and a few other things that aren't my particular cup of tea. I have thought about taking a class on Udemy, having had great success with other topics, but I haven't pulled the trigger yet.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

Well, that went south fast. As a new person, I just want to say my experience here has been good. However, it is no where near as busy and active as I had anticipated. It makes me wonder what kind of animosity is going on behind the scenes. A forum of this size should be a lot more active. However, a forum this old is bound to have issues.

FWIW, seeing an exchange like this (when participation is low) is going to scare some folks off. Folks who are not interested in drama and personality conflicts. But, I have seen a lot worse.

Anyway, to the topic at hand. I would love to try a writing course, but the only ones within reasonable travel distance include yoga, meditation, and a few other things that aren't my particular cup of tea. I have thought about taking a class on Udemy, having had great success with other topics, but I haven't pulled the trigger yet.

Try some of the Samderson lectures linked above.

 

[Russ]

To xxyesenia25.

I am sorry that your thread seems to have gotten derailed by my use of the word "amused". I have many more thoughts on the matter but just about everything I have to say on your topic, taking courses, I said in post #16.

I will be trying to find something positive to take out of this debacle, and will start a new thread on that elsewhere. Hopefully this thread will not discourage you from seeking answers here on topics you are interested in. If you are disappointed in where this discussion went I hope we, as a community, can mitigate your disappointment by engaging in a new and better discussion that will improve how this community interacts and works together.

 

[FifthView]

Hello Chessie.

Yes, I agree that Science is not a perfect word to describe what I have been calling the scientific path in this thread. However, it's the best way that I have discovered to describe that and I am not the only one that has used this expression in particular.

I am ambivalent about the use of the word science in this context. I do believe it applies here, but at the same time I think that different people have different impressions of what science entails.

Maybe we could narrow things down to say that approaching the writing of fiction as if it were a science, rather than craft or art, can inhibit the creative process? I don't know if this is a happy medium for those who don't mind the term and those who believe the term doesn't apply.

So to xxyesenia25 and anyone else who wonders about the usefulness of writing courses, I would just reiterate what I've said earlier, but restate:

Writing courses aren't cure-alls, any more than buying 10 books on writing or watching 20 Sanderson videos on YouTube, but these and other things can be resources for you if you have the time and/or money to invest in them. New tools, new ways of looking at creative writing and your own efforts, can be found in many places, but whichever you choose, it's practice, practice, practice and receiving useful feedback that will improve your writing the most. In a writing course, at least you are forced to write more and can receive feedback; but a lot of the ins-and-outs of writing can be discovered online via places like Mythic Scribes, blogs, articles, YouTube, or booksellers like Amazon (books on writing.)

 

[Sheilawisz]

Hi everyone.

RedMetalHunter: First of all, Welcome to Mythic Scribes. I am sorry that this thread turned into a heated debate, but this was not really serious after all. Indeed, like I said before the worst and most aggressive confrontations ever seen in Mythic Scribes took place years ago, but we learned from it and nothing that bad has happened again. With time, we have become a friendlier place.

It's impossible to have a perfect environment in which arguments never occur.

I hope that as time passes, your experiences here will become richer and more enjoyable. We talk about so many things like world building, development of ideas and concepts, imagination in general, everyday life stuff and even movies and video games, not only writing techniques.

Xyesenia: I am sorry that your thread was derailed, and I accept my part of the responsibility. Please do not leave the community in case we scared you off, you'll see that most of the times the threads do not develop this way. There are other Forums to explore and share here in Mythic Scribes. I hope you'll love the community.

 

[Black Dragon]

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

Mythic Scribes is a community comprised of writers with different perspectives and goals. For example, some members approach writing as a casual hobby, while others prefer a professional or career-focused approach.

Please remember that these and other differences in perspective are welcome at Mythic Scribes. What unites us is a shared love for the craft of writing, and we can't lose sight of that.

Therefore, it is imperative that everyone treat one another with mutual respect. Please refrain from arguing, and instead focus on helping one another to grow and improve. If you must disagree with someone, do so with respect and tact.

Also, be aware that the forum rules prohibit "argumentative or hostile behavior." Going forward, this prohibition will be strictly enforced.

Finally, do not forget the Guiding Principle upon which Mythic Scribes is built:

The guiding principle is to treat others with respect and dignity, and to foster a positive, welcoming and family friendly community.


Thank you for doing your part in keeping Mythic Scribes a beacon of light in the sea of hostility that is the internet.

 

[Fluffypoodel]

I haven't read through a thread this in depth in a long time (for some of the reasons stated above) so I guess I owe it to contribute my own two cents. Thanks for the invigoration!

I took a writing course back in 2011 in which the professor asked us a simple question:

Would you keep writing if no one would ever read your work?

I raised my hand and was surprised to find myself in the minority. I had never considered the fact that for some people that was the end all goal. Sure, my own goal is to be wildly successful someday but that's not what drives me. Its the love of doing it, If future me was to stop by my house, plop a book into my lap with my name on it and say "good job!" I would be excited but the happiness wouldn't be there. For me its the journey and the adventure that lies along the path. Whatever course you take whether it be through theory or some inner motivation, remember to love what you're doing. Is it worth it otherwise?