Unrealistic Dialogue

[Androxine Vortex]

I love fantasy and sci-fi but I really can't stand it when the characters say things that don't sound... well, normal. Even though the story might take place in a whole new world with new magical races and creatures, but when I write I try to make the dialogue more "normalish" Like here is what I don't like:

"Oh hello. Blessings of Mother Mayra upon you, great one. I am so humbled to see of your most anticipated arrival. I shall inform his lordship that you are here. May the divines smile upon you."

I literaly just made that off the top of my head so yeah it's kind of lame but do you see what I mean? I don't know, maybe it's because we are so used to using "slang" in today's culture(s). But I think sometimes authors get carried away, especially in regarding high status, royalties, or people with divine-association.

I understand that (especially) with royalties and lordships, its fine to speak with more dignaty and respect but still, sometimes I read a passage in a book and think to myself, "That dosen't sound plausible." I try to imagine (or when I'm writting, create) characters who are more "normal", more or less. Meaning, they don't have to have over-the-top dialogue and the reader can listen to what the character says (or even feels) and can relate to it in sense that maybe they would have said the same thing, or something similar.

What are your thoughts? Do you think that (especially in fiction) dialogue has become a little exaggerated?

 

[Kevlar]

It all depends, really, on the status of the speaker and who they address, the speaker's education, personality, ideals and so on. You will often read dialogue, though, where the author seems to think formal means bland. What you created off the top of your head would count as this if I found it in a book.

Your little bit of monologue actually came across as text from an old RPG, where every sentence is in a new box and requires you to press the A button to appear, where the loss of flow is less noticeable. I'll do a quick edit to show how it can be formal without being bland, because I agree with you that dialogue in fiction by many authors seems to be becoming... stiff.

"Oh hello. Blessings of Mother Mayra upon you, great one. I am so humbled to see of your most anticipated arrival. I shall inform his lordship that you are here. May the divines smile upon you."

As I said, it reads like monologue from an old RPG. I imagine the KnightTemplar is about to visit the Sinister Minister. (Much faster explenation than I could otherwise create.)

I would write this as:

"Oh, hello great one! Blessings of Mother Mayra upon you. I am so humbled by your presence. Come! I will inform his lordship of your arrival. May the divines smile upon you."

As you can see there's not much difference, but now the doorman has some character, he's not just a robot. Depending on how you read that he's either exuberant or Igor. Take your pick. I'm not saying it's perfect, it's just better. It's not as if I've changed his vocabulary, or made him less formal. I've simply given him some character. Alternatively, if he or she is more I the staid type an emotionless greeting is required, though not necessarily a bland one. There are so many ways to spin dialogue, giving it emotion and preventing the reader's eyes from just glazing over.

Another thing might be that these authors are scared that their emotion filled dialogue could be bad. I once read a book for half an hour before I realized it wasn't any good. The dialogue was not over the top, nor was it dumbed down, but it was stale. I sort of read the dialogue as if it was part of the narration. I can't remember what the book was called, but I picked it up in English class for "silent reading" and zoned out as I read each word. I couldn't even recall what had happened. Maybe it was Twilight. Doubt it, from what I've read of it it fits more with the following.

If that book had been blatantly bad I would have noticed. I would have thought "This sucks!" and put it back and grab another. Poor books are obvious. Bland books are fodder to the distracted or bored mind, perhaps explaining why they manage to get published.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

The word you're looking for is "modern," not "normal." Back in ye olden days, people talked differently than they do now. There's nothing wrong with writing a story set in a medieval-like society and having the characters use modern speech, but it will put off some readers who expect medieval-like stories to have medieval-like dialogue (even if what actually shows up in most novels is not actually realistic in the sense of what people actually used to talk like; it just has to sound like what people have been taught to expect, by long exposure to other novels, movies, etc.).

And it doesn't all have to be as flowery as the example you gave. What you wrote there, I'd expect to hear from some sort of high servant in a palace, upon the arrival of a distinguished guest. But the stableboys and blacksmiths and farmers of that realm presumably wouldn't talk that way.

 

[Kevlar]

I also agree with what Benjamin stated, though him and I took your post in different ways. A more modern dialogue is not a better one in non-urban fantasy. One of the most glaring mistakes is when someone says "okay." It shatters immersion.

 

[Voldermort]

This reminds me of something I once read. Allegedly, Harrison Ford told George Lucas that the dialogue in Star Wars was terrible (before it was filmed). Which goes to show.

I would just get the job done in a clean a way as possible. Remember, English speakers the world over are not likely to speak like you do if "normal" to you means lots of parochial language.

 

[Xanados]

My writing is full of archaisms... I respect and adore the use of old langauge. Anyone who dislikes archaic langauge in fantasy is a fool.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

Good points everyone. I again gave a terrible example but I've actually seen books where Everyone talked like that. I do know that language changes over time and but too many times in fantasy stories i read the dialogue and it just sounds really corny.

One book I recently read was called, Nagash the Sorcerer. The book mainly dealt with a lot of royalties and princes so I can understand how the author would want the dialogue to sound more proper but it was just terrible. Everyone always used over the top greetings with exaggerated responses, I can't really think of an example right now.

Also another thing, there is a really good author named Dan Abnett. He wrote a book called Legion and it was given Huge praise on a Warhammer forum so I decided to try it. Now, the characters are on a different world and live in a different culture so the language is different as well. I like it when authors throw in a made up word every now and then as a reminder that you're in a foreign place. I don't even mind it if they don't really explain what that word was, just as long as you could kind of firgure it out.

My problem with his book was that the he tried way too hard to immerse yourself in this new world. Every sentence had at least three undefined words, and he never went back to explain them. I literally quit reading it before I even got to the third chapter because I had no idea what I had read. Luckily for me I did give it another try and forced my way through and and in the end it was a truly amazing book, you just had to grit your way through the confusion.

I don't know, it's just been something that's bugged me for awhile.

 

[Xanados]

Good points everyone. I again gave a terrible example but I've actually seen books where Everyone talked like that. I do know that language changes over time and but too many times in fantasy stories i read the dialogue and it just sounds really corny.

One book I recently read was called, Nagash the Sorcerer. The book mainly dealt with a lot of royalties and princes so I can understand how the author would want the dialogue to sound more proper but it was just terrible. Everyone always used over the top greetings with exaggerated responses, I can't really think of an example right now.

Also another thing, there is a really good author named Dan Abnett. He wrote a book called Legion and it was given Huge praise on a Warhammer forum so I decided to try it. Now, the characters are on a different world and live in a different culture so the language is different as well. I like it when authors throw in a made up word every now and then as a reminder that you're in a foreign place. I don't even mind it if they don't really explain what that word was, just as long as you could kind of firgure it out.

My problem with his book was that the he tried way too hard to immerse yourself in this new world. Every sentence had at least three undefined words, and he never went back to explain them. I literally quit reading it before I even got to the third chapter because I had no idea what I had read. Luckily for me I did give it another try and forced my way through and and in the end it was a truly amazing book, you just had to grit your way through the confusion.

I don't know, it's just been something that's bugged me for awhile.

Yes I know who Dan Abnett is. I know what the WAR40K books are like. Still, I just think it is your own problem if you dislike archaic langauge (even in the case of 40,000 years in the future.)
This is, again, going to sound terribly harsh, but maybe you just don't understand the story that well? Or perhaps you just picked up a book that was a sequal or something?

 

[Leif GS Notae]

I think the OP brings a valid point that is creeping up in this day and age; the art of communication. I think it is vital for some writers to express themselves in their voice and have a certain feel, but there is something to be said about clarity.

The Dan Abnett example validates what I am thinking here, which is someone assumes the reader already is steeped in the lore of the world and doesn't bother to do much explaining. The obvious caveat here is it is a 40K book so you aren't just going to stumble into the world without knowing something or else you will get lost.

Yes, modern speak is a bit clearer and somewhat lazy at times, but this is where we live. Much like you can't go on for three chapters about the world someone lives in and drill down every paragraph until you start exploring the residue left on the glasses the protag drank expired orange juice from and the contemplations of his stomach after the contents molder in three hours so he could process his waste, you can't be so isolated from your readers when it comes to dialogue and speech.

Then again, i was dubbed THE WORLD'S WORST GOTHIC WRITER, so what do I know?

 

[Androxine Vortex]

@Leif GS notae
I can understand where you are coming from about the reading would most likely already have prior knowledge before jumping into a WH40K novel. However, the author had to develope the entire society and culture, there wasn't any information on them prior to the books publication. He threw in literally hundreds of undefined terms and names and made it difficult to understand what was going on. It felt like the first 50 pages of the story were ripped out and I was starting in the middle, where I should know what these terms mean yet there is no explanation at all.

@Xanados
It was part of the Horus Heresy series but the book "Legion" itself told the story of the Alpha Legion during the heresy. (I'm assuming you understand all that because I know you understand warhammer lore, to what extent I'm not sure)

And what exactly do you mean archaic? Do you mean using "old" phrases such as, "My lord" and basically stuff you would see in a medieval book? I don't have a problem with that; no, not at all. I admire that the author has the power to give the reader the feel that he is in a time and place not like his own. My problem is that often authors (imo at least) exaggerate the dialogue. It's a hard subject for me to explain my thoughts clearly.

And that's kind of a bold statement of you to say "Anyone who dislikes archaic langauge in fantasy is a fool." while I do agree in the sense that archaic language-references help fantasy stories (especially fantasy stories) they are not necasary. But again, it does give the work a more powerful meaning, so to speak. Take latin for example. many consider it a foundation of many languages and whenever we try to give something signifigance or importance, we use latin (especially in books, movies, etc) It's on currency, names for elements, also names animals.

 

[ThinkerX]

I actually gave up reading an urban fantasy novel a few months back because every character in the book - from cops to criminals to museum curators to well educated professional's talked in nothing but gutter slang.

 

[mirrorrorrim]

The word you're looking for is "modern," not "normal." Back in ye olden days, people talked differently than they do now. There's nothing wrong with writing a story set in a medieval-like society and having the characters use modern speech, but it will put off some readers who expect medieval-like stories to have medieval-like dialogue (even if what actually shows up in most novels is not actually realistic in the sense of what people actually used to talk like; it just has to sound like what people have been taught to expect, by long exposure to other novels, movies, etc.).

And it doesn't all have to be as flowery as the example you gave. What you wrote there, I'd expect to hear from some sort of high servant in a palace, upon the arrival of a distinguished guest. But the stableboys and blacksmiths and farmers of that realm presumably wouldn't talk that way.

I, for one, am one of those who is a lot more thrown off by modern speech than by "older"-sounding dialogue. As a good example, I just finished Game of Thrones for the first time (I know, I'm about ten years too late), and while I loved it, I definitely had to get used to the way people talked. In particular, it was a little jarring to hear all the modern profanities.

Eventually, though, as long as you have a good story and are a halfway decent writer, most any reader will be able to adapt to your style. By the end of Game of Thrones, I wasn't bothered by the language anymore (well, I was, but not any more than I was by the violent deaths, graphic sex, or other brutalities). George R. R. Martin set out to create a fantasy world that was darker, crueler, and more "real" than those he'd read, and his language helps to capture that tone.

Another good example for me personally is The Hunger Games series. At first, the author's constant use of sentence fragments drove me crazy. By the second book, though, I didn't even notice: I had grown accustomed to it as a part of how the main character thinks and talks. She is a very action-oriented character who has a hard time learning etiquitte and formalities; it makes sense that her thoughts would function in the same way.

It's often repeated on these forums, "show, don't tell." I don't agree with this adage in every situation, but here, I think it's a good one. It's one thing to write, "The king was feared by all." It's another thing to show the truth of it in word and deed. If someone is truly feared/respected, he will be addressed differently. Most of us on here live in America, and all of us live in the 21st century, so few of us have any real exposure to immutable class distinctions. However, much of the fantasy we write does involve different hereditary classes, and to sound realistic, we need to be able to reflect that.

I would encourage any who haven't already done so to take the time to read the original dedication of the King James Version of the Bible. The language is so flowerly and formal it's ridiculous--even compared to the prose of the rest of this version of the Bible. But when you have a divine monarch who metes out life and death as we might "hellos", that's how you learn to address him.

Of course, this is coming from someone who isn't bothered by the fact that in fantasy/historical films anyone with a noble upbringing speaks in a proper British accent, so you might want to take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

I, for one, am one of those who is a lot more thrown off by modern speech than by "older"-sounding dialogue. As a good example, I just finished Game of Thrones for the first time (I know, I'm about ten years too late), and while I loved it, I definitely had to get used to the way people talked. In particular, it was a little jarring to hear all the modern profanities.

Eventually, though, as long as you have a good story and are a halfway decent writer, most any reader will be able to adapt to your style. By the end of Game of Thrones, I wasn't bothered by the language anymore (well, I was, but not any more than I was by the violent deaths, graphic sex, or other brutalities. George R. R. Martin set out to create a fantasy world that was darker, crueler, and more "real" than those he'd read, and his language helps to capture that tone.

Another good example for me personally is The Hunger Games series. At first, the author's constant use of sentence fragments drove me crazy. By the second book, though, I didn't even notice: I had grown accustomed to it as a part of how the main character thinks and talks. She is a very action-oriented character who has a hard time learning etiquitte and formalities; it makes sense that her thoughts would function in the same way.

It's often repeated on these forums, "show, don't tell." I don't agree with this adage in every situation, but here, I think it's a good one. It's one thing to write, "The king was feared by all." It's another thing to show the truth of it in word and deed. If someone is truly feared/respected, he will be addressed differently. Most of us on here live in America, and all of us live in the 21st century, so few of us have any real exposure to immutable class distinctions. However, much of the fantasy we write does involve different hereditary classes, and to sound realistic, we need to be able to reflect that.

I would encourage any who haven't already done so to take the time to read the original dedication of the King James Version of the Bible. The language is so flowerly and formal it's ridiculous--even compared to the prose of the rest of this version of the Bible. But when you have a divine monarch who metes out life and death as we might "hellos", that's how you learn to address him.

Of course, this is coming from someone who isn't bothered by the fact that in fantasy/historical films anyone with a noble upbringing speaks in a proper British accent, so you might want to take it with a grain of salt.

Good point with the Bible. Yeah, reading it, the writing and language is very, very different. In my novels, there is a lot of involvment with various religions I invented. I think the funnest part (aside from designing the Gods themselves) would be deciding how to write out their holy texts. Just to give the reader some insight into their world. You really get be creative in your writting and designing. Aside from the Bible, I think i draw lots of inspiring ideas from the lyrics from the bands Nile and Behemoth. A lot of their lyrics have that sort of "bible-ish" feel to them, given them a sense of age, power, and divinity. Take a moment and follow the links; I try and make my "bible-ish" writitngs like this:

NILE LYRICS - "Those Whom The Gods Detest" (2009) album (Nile lyrics from the album Those Whom the Gods Detest. The lyrics to the Eye of Ra are really good)

BEHEMOTH LYRICS - "Demigod" (2004) album (Behemoth lyrics from the album Demigod. The lyrics to Sculpting the Throne ov Seth are good as well)

Again, I think when writting about deities and excerpts from holy-texts it calls for "over-the-top" writting to give it that grand effect

 

[mythique890]

I'd agree with those who've said it depends on the characters and the setting; sometimes an older, more formal English is appropriate, sometimes it's not. However, having grown up in a setting where the King James Bible was read often, I'm mostly bothered by authors who try to write in Early Modern English and get it wrong.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

I'd agree with those who've said it depends on the characters and the setting; sometimes an older, more formal English is appropriate, sometimes it's not. However, having grown up in a setting where the King James Bible was read often, I'm mostly bothered by authors who try to write in Early Modern English and get it wrong.

Could you give us an example of how one might get it wrong?

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

I, for one, am one of those who is a lot more thrown off by modern speech than by "older"-sounding dialogue. As a good example, I just finished Game of Thrones for the first time (I know, I'm about ten years too late), and while I loved it, I definitely had to get used to the way people talked. In particular, it was a little jarring to hear all the modern profanities.

I'm not sure what you mean by "modern" profanities; f*** and s*** and the like are all hundreds of years old.

 

[Xanados]

Good point with the Bible. Yeah, reading it, the writing and language is very, very different. In my novels, there is a lot of involvment with various religions I invented. I think the funnest part (aside from designing the Gods themselves) would be deciding how to write out their holy texts. Just to give the reader some insight into their world. You really get be creative in your writting and designing. Aside from the Bible, I think i draw lots of inspiring ideas from the lyrics from the bands Nile and Behemoth. A lot of their lyrics have that sort of "bible-ish" feel to them, given them a sense of age, power, and divinity. Take a moment and follow the links; I try and make my "bible-ish" writitngs like this:

NILE LYRICS - "Those Whom The Gods Detest" (2009) album (Nile lyrics from the album Those Whom the Gods Detest. The lyrics to the Eye of Ra are really good)

BEHEMOTH LYRICS - "Demigod" (2004) album (Behemoth lyrics from the album Demigod. The lyrics to Sculpting the Throne ov Seth are good as well)

Again, I think when writting about deities and excerpts from holy-texts it calls for "over-the-top" writting to give it that grand effect

Off topic, but: I was really surprised to scroll down and see Nile and Behemoth linked. I really, really was. Nile is one of my favourite death metal bands of all time.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

Off topic, but: I was really surprised to scroll down and see Nile and Behemoth linked. I really, really was. Nile is one of my favourite death metal bands of all time.

Dude, me too (next to Amon Amarth. I actually got a TWTGD shirt for Christmas lol) They imo are one of the best lyrically written (is that how you spell that?) bands. Their lyrics are just very well researched and I love the way they they get really creative giving their lyrics a sense of divne inspiration yet keeping it dark and "metal."

 

[Lord Darkstorm]

Dialog needs to fit the story. I've read a lot of bad dialog, and most of that is people who try and write something that is supposed to sound lofty, and comes out like the original example. The sad thing is that most don't read it out loud. Dialog is supposed to be spoken, if the writer can't read it out loud without stumbling over the words, how does the character?

I think more people should just try and write in what they know, and if you feel it isn't what is needed, then study the style you want to write in. I'll use a movie for an example. One of the Robin Hood movies where no one had an british accent. It didn't ruin the movie. Would the accent have given it a bit more realism...sure, but it did fine without it.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

Dialog needs to fit the story. I've read a lot of bad dialog, and most of that is people who try and write something that is supposed to sound lofty, and comes out like the original example. The sad thing is that most don't read it out loud. Dialog is supposed to be spoken, if the writer can't read it out loud without stumbling over the words, how does the character?

True, and reading your dialogue out loud to make sure it flows well is an excellent tool. Although most of the time, readers aren't reading it out loud, which allows you to write dialogue in a way that isn't quite exactly the way people talk, for the sake of expressiveness or flavor.

One of the Robin Hood movies where no one had an british accent. It didn't ruin the movie. Would the accent have given it a bit more realism...sure, but it did fine without it.

"Realism" probably isn't the right word, considering that the "accent" people used back in the Robin Hood era apparently sounded nothing like modern British accents do now. (Also that they would have been speaking in, like, Middle English.) But I do understand your point; people will consider it more realistic if it's what they expect (British characters speaking in British accents).