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skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
I have this line that I'm going to find a place to use, somewhere. Character A introduces herself and says "I'm a half-elf."

Character B raises an eyebrow and says, "Oh yeah? What's the other half?"

Makes me chuckle every time, but it brings me to my point. Half-orc, half-whatever, the other half is always human. Knock that over and see what you get.

Half-orc, half-dwarf.
Half-troll, half-elf.
Half-dwarf, half-halfling. *chortle*
If that last one has a child by a full dwarf, the child is what, 3/4 dwarf?
It gets rather silly, doesn't it?

Also, how does this work? Not so much the actual sex act, which I'm willing to allow is going to be pretty similar across bipedal mammals of similar size, but where's the attraction? For the most part, species do not inter-breed. There are exceptions, but for the most part. What would attract a dwarf to an orc? Or a human to a dwarf? How does the romance work? Are the conventions for love and courtship the same across species? Seems unlikely.

I'm also thinking that the issue of such unions would, for the most part, be regarded with revulsion--unless you build in some socio-cultural reasons why they wouldn't. Coming up with scenarios, both for revulsion and for acceptance, sounds full of writing promise.

Does anyone know of stories that have explored this?
 

TheKillerBs

Maester
"For the most part, species do not interbreed."

Well... We're Homo sapiens, and as far as we know, except for some populations of Sub-Saharan Africans, everyone has some Neanderthal, Denisovan and other early hominid species in their blood. So maybe species don't usually interbreed, but it seems that doesn't really apply to good ol' Homo sapiens where it gets close enough.
 

rhd

Troubadour
This got me thinking about that article I read on ligers, wholphins and grola bears.
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
Then again, hominid is not Homo sapiens. I was looking more at fantasy beings.

To reiterate the question: any books out there in which the MC or a major supporting character is, say, half-elf and half-dwarf, or some other non-human combination?
 

TheKillerBs

Maester
Well, Homo sapiens ARE hominids, but not all hominids are Homo sapiens. I'm just saying, there's precedent for members of our species to go looking outside the box, as long as they're close enough. Wrt fantasy beings, some might push the envelope a bit (such as orcs) but overall I see no reason to believe fantasy human beings wouldn't do the same as the early humans did and interbreed with somewhat similar beings as themselves.
 

Russ

Istar
I For the most part, species do not inter-breed.

And here I always thought being in different species meant you can't interbreed.

But yes, the whole tradition of smashing two "species" (races?) together to get some neat characteristics really does seem more than a tad improbable when you think about it.
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
Improbable without a doubt, but un-naturally it’s fantasy where magic can be a form of genetic engineer. In the advanced magic eras of my world (plus in the era where the gods are busy) it allows for genetic manipulation, but of course it’s wildly unpredicatble because they don’t have a gene by gene understanding of what the hell they’re doing, LOL. Good fun.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
One of the first stories I ever wrote featured a polar-elf - half elf and half polar bear. A revised version of that story can be found here: Tuuli

Elven half-breeds is a thing in my setting and they come from how the original elves are mono-gendered and have the ability to produce offspring with anything that has a soul. More details on this can be found on my wiki, here: Elven Half-Breeds

Souls are a pretty big deal in my setting and almost everything that is alive has one or shares a part in one. Additionally, some things that wouldn't normally be considered alive may also have souls. A consequence of this is that there may be such a thing as a half-elf, half-forest being.
Admittedly, I haven't written story about such a being, but it'd be interesting to try.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
Improbable without a doubt, but un-naturally it’s fantasy where magic can be a form of genetic engineer. In the advanced magic eras of my world (plus in the era where the gods are busy) it allows for genetic manipulation, but of course it’s wildly unpredicatble because they don’t have a gene by gene understanding of what the hell they’re doing, LOL. Good fun.

Genetic engineering is also a feature in my setting. With the extremely long life spans of the elves, they've made it a hobby of theirs to try and create new species or to enhance specific traits within existing species.
Whether to allow for the use of magic in order to speed up the process is a bit of a hot topic and there are different schools of thought regarding how much magic is acceptable too.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
One more post (instead of editing). On a grander scale, one of the more famous non-elf half-breeds would be Garona Halforcen from the Warcraft universe: Garona Halforcen
She's half-orc, half draenei and she's a fairly major character within the lore of the setting.
 

Heliotrope

Staff
Article Team
Oddly enough I don't find it that improbable, for some reason. If we are looking at Tolkein, the hobbits, elves, dwarves, men, and orcs all can speak a common language (yes, I know they have their own languages too), they all have typical patterns of humanoid behaviour (creating cities, and cultures, etc), they all have the capacity to feel a wide range of humanoid emotions (maybe not the orcs lol).... I guess to me the species' in LOTR feel more like races, and so questioning their interbreeding feels a bit like saying blacks can't mix with whites, or asian can't mix with aboriginal... I mean, the Japanese have a very different language, culture, appearance and courting habits than the West African Dogon.... but saying they couldn't, or wouldn't interbreed of course is absurd. I like what Killer B's has to say about the Neanderthals and HOmo Sapians.

On the flip side, GRRM made his white walkers very non-human. Even though they look human, they don't have a wide range of emotions, they are very animalistic in their behaviour patterns. This for me feels different. I can't imagine a human breeding with a white walker, or a dragon in GOT.

So for me, believability depends on the level of sophistication of the species I guess?
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I don't have a book for you. But in Warcraft, I'm surprised that Svrtnsse went to Garona before Rexxar, who is half-orc, half-ogre. I've said elsewhere, but the Lore in Warcraft can be a pretty good source of inspiration (just don't play the game if you value your life).

((edit: To me, Garona's half-draenai, half-orc lineage is a deal breaker because the two aren't even from the same planet. Orcs and Ogres in Warcraft lore are both part of the breakers lineage descending from the shards of a stone giant, so their compatability makes more.... why are you making that face at me?))

One of the Dungeons and Dragons monster manuals lists Mongrelmen, a product of the big interracial cities where some people have the blood from too many different ancestor species to be a clear race on their own anymore. I thought the idea was awesome and might end up stealing it some day.
 

Heliotrope

Staff
Article Team
One of the Dungeons and Dragons monster manuals lists Mongrelmen, a product of the big interracial cities where some people have the blood from too many different ancestor species to be a clear race on their own anymore. I thought the idea was awesome and might end up stealing it some day.[/QUOTE]

On earth we call that "Canadian." lol. I have kids in my class at school who are so many mixtures of so many things we can't do "Where did your family originate from" assignments anymore. IT would be six hundred pages long.
 

Chessie2

Staff
Article Team
I thought this thread was about half off shopping...!

Just kidding. I mainly came on here to say that half-elves are sacrilege. No respectable elf would ever bed another race. Ever. Hail the Thalmor!

"Don't you see? Elven supremacy is the only way!"
 

Heliotrope

Staff
Article Team
Except Arwen.

Who, granted, didn't have a huge role in the books.

OMGI Someone actually wrote a blog post on this, lol!

Ansereg

Interspecies Sex Is Tragic

Elves who marry/love/have sex with mortal Men basically have "strange fates." There are four such recorded marriages in Tolkien canon: Beren and Lúthien, Idril and Tuor, Aragorn and Arwen, and Mithrellas and the first Lord of Dol Amroth. Mithrellas didn't stick around; she ran away from her husband (History of Galadriel and Celeborn, UF). Beren and Lúthien, and Aragorn and Arwen, wound up with the elf-ladies becoming mortal. This means that not only do they die instead of living an immortal Elf life, their souls leave the world and spend eternity with Men's souls. Idril and Tuor managed to scrape up a happy ending, sailing together into the West and being accepted there. (Silmarillion)

There is also a recorded instance of an elf-man falling in love with a human woman. (Legolas fans, please stay calm.) They didn't get married, though. This very depressing story, of bold Aegnor and wise Andreth, is told in "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth", or the Debate of Finrod and Andreth. (Morgoth's Ring, HME) It is full of reasons why elf/human social intercourse is wrong and ill-starre
d.
 

Chessie2

Staff
Article Team
Yes. It IS tragic. When I used to be involved in the Skyrim fanfic community, a part of me died whenever elves married humans. Why?! Noooo.....
 
In my books, children are created through energy fusion and a desire to create, so in my latest book, the main character has three grandparents [none of them are of the same race: a Harmony Sorcerer, a Draconic Knight, and a Chaos Wolf of Purity] and one mother [a semi divine being].
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
Thanks for the Warcraft references. I was pretty sure this sort of thing was rare in fantasy literature, but thought maybe I had simply missed a whole sub-sub-genre. Looks like not.

I've been putting a fair amount of thought to this for Altearth. I'm not sure who will get which arrangement, but one will be that interbreeding is possible but is taboo. That of course opens story possibilities. Another will be possible but disgusting, maybe on both sides, maybe just on one. I'll have a couple where it's possible but never produces progeny. Maybe one where it's acceptable, though right now I'm inclined away from that. I have put so much work into creating each nation as distinct, I don't want to try to sketch out mingled versions as well. Perhaps by and by.

I find all sorts of complications implicit in these arrangements. Orcs are militantly monotheistic and all orcs are loyal servants of the Empire. A human could enter into this, but only by becoming a humanoid orc, believing what they believe and abandoning human traditions. I presume going the other direction, the orc would have to abandon orc-ness.

More interesting would be a union between elf and dwarf, for elves are intensely individualistic while dwarves are all about clan and canton. In whose community would they be married? How would they raise their children? I could see them leaving both communities, going to live in a human city where it's possible to travel a third way. Would dwarf merchants do business with them? Would their children be pariahs?

It's not the physical sex or the genetics that interest me. That's merely biology. It's the consequences that interest me; that's story.
 
I've got the idea for a short story about a female elf [Wayland] raised by dwarves and a female dwarf [Toruviel] raised by elves. Though that's entirely different...
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
I've been putting a fair amount of thought to this for Altearth. I'm not sure who will get which arrangement, but one will be that interbreeding is possible but is taboo.

Small sciency point. If they can interbreed freely and produce fertile offspring just as easily, then as Russ touched on, I don't they can't be considered separate species any longer. They're just variations on the same species.
 
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