Can a (proper) mute person laugh?

[Naruzeldamaster]

"Can a (proper) mute person"
What does this even mean. I know you explained it but I really want you to consider what it means to say that only some of a group of people you definitely are not part of are real. What does it mean that you have judged some members of a minority as valid and some as fake. Consider the implications for a monument would you.

Are you talking about selective mutism? Whether you are or not that's a messed up thing to say: but if you are referring to mute people that are physically capable of speech or do sometimes talk that is just inaccurate.

Phrasing aside, I did mean someone who had the medical condition and not selective mutism, I am not going down this rabbit hole. can we please be civil?

I for one can't form words even on paper or through typing when I'm nonverbal.

I mean if you really want to split hairs, most texting is silent (unless you're using dictation) so I imagine about anyone who can read/write messages could text. They absolutely depict her as someone who could text if she chose to.

On your actual question, yes if the exact form of mutism is never specified its perfectly possible this character can laugh. And its fanfiction anyways, its not the end of the world if you get something wrong.

Some authors take quite a lot of creative liberties, there's an entire genre of fanfiction called 'fix it' fics which, does what it says on the tin. Some fix it well, others warp the canon story into a fantasy explicitly for the author. There's an 'audience' for both kinds too, which is really puzzling.

I prefer to stick closer to canon (If I can) unless it's a 'what if' story like my Zelda one. That particular story I just bit the bullet and said 'yeah this is an AU/Alternate Timeline' this RWBY story has to be an AU cause it's a mix of two fandoms. But I want the actual canon stuff to be accurate.

That said I've already said I'm going with the cause of her mutism being the psychological trauma / something wrong with the nerves. That is something that can be 'overcome' without it being some magic cure just cause I want her to talk in my story.

 

[Mad Swede]

Phrasing aside, I did mean someone who had the medical condition and not selective mutism, I am not going down this rabbit hole. can we please be civil?

I mean if you really want to split hairs, most texting is silent (unless you're using dictation) so I imagine about anyone who can read/write messages could text. They absolutely depict her as someone who could text if she chose to.

Some authors take quite a lot of creative liberties, there's an entire genre of fanfiction called 'fix it' fics which, does what it says on the tin. Some fix it well, others warp the canon story into a fantasy explicitly for the author. There's an 'audience' for both kinds too, which is really puzzling.

I prefer to stick closer to canon (If I can) unless it's a 'what if' story like my Zelda one. That particular story I just bit the bullet and said 'yeah this is an AU/Alternate Timeline' this RWBY story has to be an AU cause it's a mix of two fandoms. But I want the actual canon stuff to be accurate.

That said I've already said I'm going with the cause of her mutism being the psychological trauma / something wrong with the nerves. That is something that can be 'overcome' without it being some magic cure just cause I want her to talk in my story.

For someone who doesn't want to go down rabbit holes you really are digging yourself deeper in. And in doing so you're showing why you need to do research.

To begin with, mutism is a condition which can be caused by several different medical conditions. Treatment, if it is possible, varies.

When you say that you want the cause of her mutism to be psychological trauma then you're talking about someone with PTSD. Yes, PTSD can cause mutism, there are several modern documented cases of this. But, someone like that will also have a whole load of other psychological problems which will have a significant impact on how they react to events (sudden noises etc), people and stress. Treating someone with PTSD is not easy, it takes time and it does not always succeed. So to get a character like that right (i.e. getting them treated so they can talk) you must do a lot of research, because you will not be writing a simple character. Or rather, you shouldn't be writing a simple character if you want that character and their development to be non-magical.

 

[pmmg]

Wait a minute...This is a fanfic?

Like, all the reasons and mannerisms for this have already been hashed out. Just copy them. No one reading is going to wonder why or how this came about.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Wait a minute...This is a fanfic?

Like, all the reasons and mannerisms for this have already been hashed out. Just copy them. No one reading is going to wonder why or how this came about.

For the fanfiction:
Yes and no, it's explained that she's mute, but her past and such aren't super explored.

Other than that, yes, I'm keeping her close to canon. Though I was also considering a mute character in one of my original fictions too.

I haven't crafted the character fully yet (She appears later in the story) but I wanted to know, so I asked. Phrasing could have been better but there weren't too many ways to phrase such a question.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Characters with speech or vocal troubles can be quite interesting.

I have one in my very first Fantasy trilogy. This story was written such a long time ago that I don’t even remember her name anymore, but she was a Mage and one of the two sisters of the Mage Queen that ruled a distant land.

The thing is that she fought in this ancient war that is only talked about as a legend in the main narrative, a really dark and terrible war. There was a night when the enemy successfully carried out a devastating counterattack, which was so brutal that it almost ended the war for good, and by daybreak this character witnessed so many of her fellows dead like insects as far as she could see that it changed her mindset forever.

When the narrative finally explains exactly what happened to her, the poor thing had not spoken at all for well over two thousand years.

I recently completed a novel about this other character, a totally normal seventeen year old girl that suddenly gets dragged into a magical adventure about parallel worlds. When everything started this character endured a dreadful injury to her larynx, which had to be rebuilt by a very skillful surgeon, and even though she kept her larynx after all sadly the vocal cords had to be removed.

She spends the rest of the novel adapting to life without a voice.

Anna is never described as mute in the narrative, simply because if your hearing is good enough and there is enough silence you can actually hear what she says.

We need more characters like that in Fantasy.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Fun fact: We also have a mute character, the father of one of our FMC's. He's also suffering from mental illness and severe trauma. This is his intro. Do we have opinions?

From Faerie Rising: The First Book of Binding (I detect a pattern. lol)

~~~

Among wizards, perhaps only the library collection of the Wizard Council itself was as broad in material, although she had heard that the Servants of the Eldest possessed a library that surpassed it. Her father, Colin, would know for certain. He was the keeper of the Mulcahy Library.

Winter found him exactly where she expected to find him, in his worn green leather chair in the deepest corner of the stacks. Piles of books surrounded him, buried the table beside him, and littered the floor about his feet. A wooden tray was balanced on top of one of the piles, a full bowl of soup and a small plate of toast untouched. “I’m home, Papa.” She checked the cup—at least he had drunk his water. She had dosed it liberally with her vitamin tonic, so it was better than nothing, but still... “I wish you would eat.” The food she had laced with anti-depressant potions. He refused to take them on his own. She would have put them in the water, as well, but unlike the vitamin tonic they both colored and flavored whatever they were added to and he knew whenever it was in there.

Unfortunately, like conventional anti-depressants, her potions needed time and consistency to build up in the system and affect the brain chemistry of her patient to be effective. Her father wanted no part of that. He ate so infrequently that what little medication she could get into him was ineffective, and he knew it. So, she had a medical practitioner’s greatest frustration and greatest grief—a treatable patient who was non-compliant. And worse, it was her parent.

He did not look at her. Colin’s head rested against one wing of the old chair, his dull eyes staring fixedly at the nothing beside her. He wore a dirty brown robe, threadbare at the neck and the elbows, the cuffs nearly black with accumulated grime. His dark hair hung stringy and limp to his shoulders, his face covered with a scraggly beard. White streaks marked his thin cheeks from where tears had fallen and been allowed to dry.

Winter pushed the books away from his feet, noting that they had not changed position or order in weeks. He was not reading them anymore. “Can you hear me, Papa?”

She watched his hands, rather than his face, for his response, but his fingers did not so much as twitch. Colin had been born mute. When they were children, she and her sisters would try to ignore their gentle father by simply not looking at him—it was a good way to get something thrown at them, though. And heaven help them if their mother caught them doing it. Winter barely remembered her, but she did know that Tersa would abide no one, not even her own daughters, mistreating her sweet Colin.

Winter picked up the blanket that had pooled around her father’s bare feet and tucked it back over his thin legs. Her mother had disappeared nearly twenty years ago, and her father had not left the house since. However, the depression had not consumed him, not entirely, until the deaths of her older twin sisters, Sorcha at twenty-two, Mirilyn along with her husband and little daughter the year after that. When her cousins died six months ago, leaving the two of them alone, he had simply stopped leaving the Library.

Winter knelt and laid her head against his bony knees. He had always been shy, always been gentle, while her mother had been fierce and proud, the face of their marriage. Her mother would know how to fix this. Winter didn’t. “I wish you would eat, Papa.” She closed her eyes a moment, grief tugging at her, but no tears came. She had no more, tonight. “I miss you.” She whispered it against the blanket, a bare breath of sound.

Something moved against her hair, and she felt the warmth of her father’s fingers against her neck. She pressed her face harder against his knees.

They sat in the dark, in silence.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Characters with speech or vocal troubles can be quite interesting.

I have one in my very first Fantasy trilogy. This story was written such a long time ago that I don’t even remember her name anymore, but she was a Mage and one of the two sisters of the Mage Queen that ruled a distant land.

The thing is that she fought in this ancient war that is only talked about as a legend in the main narrative, a really dark and terrible war. There was a night when the enemy successfully carried out a devastating counterattack, which was so brutal that it almost ended the war for good, and by daybreak this character witnessed so many of her fellows dead like insects as far as she could see that it changed her mindset forever.

When the narrative finally explains exactly what happened to her, the poor thing had not spoken at all for well over two thousand years.

I recently completed a novel about this other character, a totally normal seventeen year old girl that suddenly gets dragged into a magical adventure about parallel worlds. When everything started this character endured a dreadful injury to her larynx, which had to be rebuilt by a very skillful surgeon, and even though she kept her larynx after all sadly the vocal cords had to be removed.

She spends the rest of the novel adapting to life without a voice.

Anna is never described as mute in the narrative, simply because if your hearing is good enough and there is enough silence you can actually hear what she says.

We need more characters like that in Fantasy.

This character for my original fiction is, very much still in the rough planning phase.

She appears in the middle of the book (which I'm not quite there yet)

I'm trying to think of a medical reason but also a magical reason for her mutism. Since sometimes these things are linked in this world. (sometimes they aren't )

That way even if the heroes 'save' her, she's still her, but I'm not too sure if that's mean or nice. She winds up with a happy ending regardless I think.
I do think I want her to be a fighter, but I haven't decided what kind.

 

[Romy]

Phrasing aside, I did mean someone who had the medical condition and not selective mutism, I am not going down this rabbit hole. can we please be civil?

Be careful, selective mutism is also an actual condition and not just someone who chooses not to talk.
Sometimes even the contrary, when you really have to talk it fails. And nobody believes you can't.

A lot depends on how far you want to take it. For a main character were it plays an important role you probably need more.
For a mage, selective mutism might be worse than being mute all the time (which means she learned magic without speaking).
More to think about for a character you create yourself.

I don't know this one but if you want to stick close to canon you don't want to invent stuff that isn't there. But she seems capable of making some noises.
If it isn't known why she is mute in the original story, don't invent a reason.

There are a lot of adults who think I am blind when I remove my glasses. Or even a while ago internet uproar, 'a blind person checking his phone' = he is not really blind. So better to ask the question.

Laughing is also quite a lot more than just making sound.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Be careful, selective mutism is also an actual condition and not just someone who chooses not to talk.
Sometimes even the contrary, when you really have to talk it fails. And nobody believes you can't.

See this is why I can't 'win' in these situations because most of the time I don't know (see some examples above) again, hindsight the phrasing could have been better and I'm not ashamed to admit that.
But thanks for not being instantly hostile about it. Makes me much more likely to take said advice. It's very easy to get super upset about this sort of thing even when the person in question means no harm.

A lot depends on how far you want to take it. For a main character were it plays an important role you probably need more.
For a mage, selective mutism might be worse than being mute all the time (which means she learned magic without speaking).
More to think about for a character you create yourself.

In my story I have a clan of mages who managed to 'separate' the incantation from the actual spell. So they can use whatever phrase they want instead of the usual 'oh holy magics etc' / 'super magical word of doom' like the typical spell casting. It does two things: A: confuse their opponents because they have no idea what they're casting. B: They get to have actual fun with the incants. (Seriously their leaping spell phrase is 'gas station tacos' and with that context, I think you know how the spell works.) They can say just about anything as long as the 'context' is right and they have clear intentions.

For this mute character, I'm considering her being from this clan to begin with. I was going to have it that she was a bard and thus struggled with the clan's magic at all (Before she even lost her voice I mean) until she learned to combine the clan's logic with her lack of a voice. Though she does have a medical condition of mutism, she learned to use siren magic. (Although this got her in trouble with actual sirens and the other similar mythical creature I can't member the name of)

I don't know this one but if you want to stick close to canon you don't want to invent stuff that isn't there. But she seems capable of making some noises.
If it isn't known why she is mute in the original story, don't invent a reason.

This is a good thought too. A lot of 'fix it' fics, like to invent reasons for why x or y happens in canon. Some of them are good reasons, others...not so much. It's a very fine line to walk. I'll need to watch the show again to see if it's ever explained (I doubt it, given what I've heard about later volumes) but I'm not sure. The re-writing of some characters in later seasons are so bad that the fanbase in general is like 'if their past volume self saw their current volume self they'd beat the shit out of them' (My buddy's exact words, especially for Yang, not the character in question but another fan favorite character) I stopped watching at volume 4-5 and there's (I think) 8 volumes.

Although, would allowing her to use her phone (they aren't called "phones" in the show but that's basically what they are) to text be acceptable? She seems like she can read/write. Though she's never done it on camera, she's shown doing it on a mini series of animations.

There are a lot of adults who think I am blind when I remove my glasses. Or even a while ago internet uproar, 'a blind person checking his phone' = he is not really blind. So better to ask the question.

Interesting. I think regardless we need to have a few more blind characters (depicted well) in fiction. I think there's less here than even mute characters.
Although sometimes asking the question (Genuinely out of curiosity) can result in anger too. It is getting very hard to avoid a 'how dare you' online anymore, especially when minorities are involved. (I'd say the solution would be phrasing, but even if you phrase it well someone's going to get upset)

Laughing is also quite a lot more than just making sound.

Yeah, it's often an emotional state that causes it ? Or do you mean there's more to laughing than just the sound?

 

[pmmg]

If you allow those who would be offended impede the story that needs to be told, it will never be told.

Goldies quotable no 9.

Goldie's Words of Wisdom


I think Anna was mute, certainly in the physical sense, and for an extended period of time. While the trauma was a large part of the story, her muteness felt like a likely outcome of the ordeal. But, I am not sure it was a theme to speak about the mute.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

If you allow those who would be offended impede the story that needs to be told, it will never be told.

I love this and I'm making it one of my rules.

Goldies quotable no 9.

Goldie's Words of Wisdom


I think Anna was mute, certainly in the physical sense, and for an extended period of time. While the trauma was a large part of the story, her muteness felt like a likely outcome of the ordeal. But, I am not sure it was a theme to speak about the mute.

Interesting, I don't think my mute character will be an attempt to speak about the mute either. This discussion in general just kinda poofed her into existence and the more I think on the idea the more I like it. I doubt she'll be an offensive depiction but the concern is there a tiny bit. Just cause I've never made my own mute character before.

 

[Romy]

See this is why I can't 'win' in these situations because most of the time I don't know (see some examples above) again, hindsight the phrasing could have been better and I'm not ashamed to admit that.
But thanks for not being instantly hostile about it. Makes me much more likely to take said advice. It's very easy to get super upset about this sort of thing even when the person in question means no harm.

You did win. Might not feel glorious, not the prize you expected, but you got people to think.
Hurts but well... more honest than a fifa peace prize.

If you write sensitive subjects, you will get honest replies... Sometimes you won't even know it is sensitive topic...
Better over here and better early. Mad Swede gave you his honest opinion. The worst he can do is stop commenting and give up on you. Or even try to sugarcoat his opinion. Might be worse.
The worst you can do is stop writing or stop asking questions.

Although, would allowing her to use her phone (they aren't called "phones" in the show but that's basically what they are) to text be acceptable? She seems like she can read/write. Though she's never done it on camera, she's shown doing it on a mini series of animations.

You are the writer. Why would a mute have a phone? Think about the blind people with phones... Texting would be a perfect reason and even easier to understand. And if they use something that doesn't make sense, convince the reader it does.

Yeah, it's often an emotional state that causes it ? Or do you mean there's more to laughing than just the sound?

The complete body joins, is even a psycho exercise 'smile and you will feel better'. Probably works if you believe it but it might be interesting to study.
Emotional state can be different, not all laughs are genuine. Dramatic overacting or controlled... Trying not to laugh... Probably drama coaches or actors showing off on youtube. If nothing else, you might get a laugh out of it.

 

[Mad Swede]

See this is why I can't 'win' in these situations because most of the time I don't know (see some examples above) again, hindsight the phrasing could have been better and I'm not ashamed to admit that.

You're in a group for writers. One of the skills that makes a good writer is being able to express themselves clearly in writing, because that then leads on to the ability to write in a deliberately obscure way when needed in the story. I know this next bit sounds harsh, but if you can't express your question clearly how are you going to write a good story? As I've said to you before, you need to read and you need to write - and you need to do a lot of both these things.

But thanks for not being instantly hostile about it. Makes me much more likely to take said advice. It's very easy to get super upset about this sort of thing even when the person in question means no harm.

It is easy for others to take offence, and this is most obvious on the internet. But I'd turn the question round. If you had (or if you actually have) a diagnosis, how would you feel if someone who didn't have that condition took it upon themselves to write a story with a character with that condition? Would you expect them to do the research? Would you expect them to ask people like yourself? Would you find it patronising and offensive if they didn't bother and just did some very cursory search on the internet before writing? If you answered "yes" to any or all of those last three questions then you should understand why you as a writer need to do the research.

I am very severely dyslexic, to the point of being classed as disabled. I have given those questions some thought, and I don't mind non-dyslexic people writing dyslexic characters. BUT, I do expect authors to do the research and to think through the setting properly. A couple of examples. In a medieval style fantasy where most people can't read how would you ever know someone was dyslexic? Or would it be that someone who could read and write was unusual and stood out? In an SF story set in some far future, could dyslexia be cured in some way? If so, do all dyslexic people choose the cure or do some want to remain uncured? What does their choice say about them? It's when you ask yourself these sorts of questions that your characters come alive.

Yeah, it's often an emotional state that causes it ? Or do you mean there's more to laughing than just the sound?

Think about when you laugh. Sometimes it's sheer joy at some happy event, sometimes it's because something is funny, sometimes it's laughter born of scorn, and sometimes it's the pleasure of seeing someone get their comeuppance. So you need to think through the situation when describing how (and hence indirectly why) a character laughs.

If you allow those who would be offended impede the story that needs to be told, it will never be told.

I love this and I'm making it one of my rules.

Yes, you are free to write what you want. But with that freedom comes the responsibility to take the consequences of your writing: the criticisms, the complaints and sometimes the praise. It's a two edged sword.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

You did win. Might not feel glorious, not the prize you expected, but you got people to think.
Hurts but well... more honest than a fifa peace prize.

If you write sensitive subjects, you will get honest replies... Sometimes you won't even know it is sensitive topic...
Better over here and better early. Mad Swede gave you his honest opinion. The worst he can do is stop commenting and give up on you. Or even try to sugarcoat his opinion. Might be worse.
The worst you can do is stop writing or stop asking questions.

I feel like Mad Swede got a point, but I also feel like if my intention was to offend the phrasing would have been much worse. Either way let's move on from that bit. If I made them angry I can only apologise and say I genuinely didn't mean to harm. But again that's kinda derailing the discussion a bit.

You are the writer. Why would a mute have a phone? Think about the blind people with phones... Texting would be a perfect reason and even easier to understand. And if they use something that doesn't make sense, convince the reader it does.

I think it'd be fine for a high school student to be texting. I could have it that she's very selective about who she sends texts to though. She's a pretty confident person overall so I don't think she'd be that shy.

For the original character in my fantasy fiction, they don't have phones (they have some technology, like microwaves and refrigerators ) so she will probably use sign language.

The complete body joins, is even a psycho exercise 'smile and you will feel better'. Probably works if you believe it but it might be interesting to study.
Emotional state can be different, not all laughs are genuine. Dramatic overacting or controlled... Trying not to laugh... Probably drama coaches or actors showing off on youtube. If nothing else, you might get a laugh out of it.

 

[pmmg]

See also: The Fable of the Donkey in Goldie's Words to Live by

Sure, you have to look stuff up. But jumping around at offended types is a waste of energy. They cannot be pleased. There will always be some to say it should have been different. You do your best, follow what you think is important, and move ahead. Cause, at the end of the day, you are trying to write a story, not address the concerns all can come up with.

Near as I can tell, Mr. Naru is spending too much time trying to get his pencils straight, and not actually using them. He needs to do the craft more than he needs to do the research. Let the craft inform as to which research he should do...

I wonder, how much effort did RWBY put in before they put this character into their story. I bet they just threw her in and asked questions later.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

See also: The Fable of the Donkey in Goldie's Words to Live by

Sure, you have to look stuff up. But jumping around at offended types is a waste of energy. They cannot be pleased. There will always be some to say it should have been different. You do your best, follow what you think is important, and move ahead. Cause, at the end of the day, you are trying to write a story, not address the concerns all can come up with.

Near as I can tell, Mr. Naru is spending too much time trying to get his pencils straight, and not actually using them. He needs to do the craft more than he needs to do the research. Let the craft inform as to which research he should do...

I wonder, how much effort did RWBY put in before they put this character into their story. I bet they just threw her in and asked questions later.

The Guy that wrote all the notes (Known as Monty) for the show worked on the early seasons as writer and (sometimes) animator.
The company that bought the show after he passed away (shortly after volume 3) decided to disregard Monty's writing and notes for the rest of the series. The guy had about 8 seasons planned and about 4 written. It was a big mess. When word of this got out fans were pretty peeved. Because by the time the show was in the new studio's hands it was no longer 'monty's' RWBY anymore. The show is pretty good regardless of this, but watch volumes 5+ with the knowledge that a good bit of the fanbase were not happy with changes made.

Either way point taken

In regards to my own mute character, I'm shaping her into a more proper idea as I work on other stuff.