Are You an Artist, or a Craftsman?

[Mindfire]

Artist or Craftsman? False dichotomy. We're all both, to one extent or another. Which way you lean more heavily depends on your goals and what types of work you are writing. Neither direction is more or pure than the other.

I'm still not entirely on board with the way this issue is framed. It doesn't seem to be an art vs. craft thing so much as an art vs. business and cynicism thing. But then, the way I define "art" and "craft" is different from what's premised in the original post.

 

[Steerpike]

I'm still not entirely on board with the way this issue is framed. It doesn't seem to be an art vs. craft thing so much as an art vs. business and cynicism thing. But then, the way I define "art" and "craft" is different from what's premised in the original post.

As I said, it's a false dichotomy. There's a lot of overlap here. I can see the art v. business distinction as well, however the baggage that comes with such distinctions (biased in favor of the ideal of art versus business) doesn't work for me.

 

[Mythopoet]

I think of myself as neither an artist or a craftsman, but simply as a storyteller.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

I'm a baby that learned how to type somewhat coherent sentences.

 

[valiant12]

So. I read an article online that offered 25 tips to beginning writers. One of the tips was that writers are craftsmen, and should treat their writing as a "profession." I looked up craftsman, which was defined as someone who follows the methods and best p.......................................................................................................................................................................................................

This is making me sad.
Too much cynicism. Masss producing art? Whats next? Humanity becoming the borg?

 

[TheCrystallineEntity]

I think of myself as neither an artist or a craftsman, but simply as a storyteller.

I agree totally. I tell stories regardless of what people think of me or want of me.

This is making me sad. Too much cynicism. Masss producing art? Whats next? Humanity becoming the borg?

There's a part in Deep Secret, by Diana Wynne Jones [probably my favourite author], where a writer gives a horribly boring speech at a convention on how his writing is like building a car, and lists how all of the 'machinery' fits together best in order to get the best money out of it.

 

[Christopher Michael]

This is making me sad.
Too much cynicism. Masss producing art? Whats next? Humanity becoming the borg?

The writer who views it as a job makes a living. The writer who views it as "art above all" starves.

 

[Annoyingkid]

The writer who views it as a job makes a living. The writer who views it as "art above all" starves.

...Assuming the artist doesn't have a day job on the side or isn't independently wealthy.

Slaving over one book for your entire life is perfectly valid if you can pay your bills some other way.

 

[Christopher Michael]

...Assuming the artist doesn't have a day job on the side or isn't independently wealthy.

Slaving over one book for your entire life is perfectly valid if you can pay your bills some other way.

Which, rather blatantly, proves my point. If you want to make a living? You view writing as a job. A job you love. Even a job you can be artistic at. But still a job.
The writer who has to be "true to the art"? Doesn't make a living.

It really is that simple.



I consider myself both crafter and artist. But I treat writing like a job, not a hobby and most definitely not some form of "pure art." I intend to make a living at it, making at least as much as I make now with my "day job."

 

[Russ]

The writer who views it as a job makes a living. The writer who views it as "art above all" starves.

There is a great story about Fred Forsyth speaking on a panel in England with a good friend of his who was a published literary writer.

The panel master asks how important it is to take your audience into account when you are writing.

FF says it is very important to think about the reader when you are writing and he always has his audience in mind throughout the entire writing process.

His literary friend scoffs at this at says that he writes for himself to satisfy himself.

To which FF says "That is why you are a very good writer...and I am very rich."

 

[Russ]

if you are always thinking about who you are empowering, who you are offending be it in terms of religion or identity politics, who you are marketing to, maximum sales, and so on , then you are lost creatively. I've heard alot of people talk like that who haven't even written anything yet.

And I know a number of people who think like that who make seven figures a year from their writing.

 

[Russ]

I look forward to the day when writing, and art in general, moves away from all the identity politics and gets back to being about the craft and creative expression. I don't know why everything has to be side-tracked by discussions regarding race, gender, or what have you. It's truly depressing to see that this is what the entertainment industry has devolved into.

Having lived through with clear memories of the times when people of colour had no significant role in any of the North American art scene (other than music), I am grateful that we now realize that art has an impact on society and we should be respectful of the realities of people who are not white males.

 

[Russ]

Is it comfortable up there on your cross?

Like I said. It's all about politics now, and that's a shame.

My apologies for all the "whiteness" out there.

The oppressed have no obligation to offer comfort to the status quo.

 

[Gurkhal]

To me writing is and, probably, will always be a form of art. While there's a certain ammount of craftsmanship involved, I see it no more a craft than poetry, where you need to know the tecnique used, or painting, where you need to know your tools and stuff.

 

[Annoyingkid]

And I know a number of people who think like that who make seven figures a year from their writing.

Yeah. Seven zeroes, like Riley J Dennis, who has to give the books away.

 

[Christopher Michael]

if you are always thinking about who you are empowering, who you are offending be it in terms of religion or identity politics, who you are marketing to, maximum sales, and so on , then you are lost creatively. I've heard alot of people talk like that who haven't even written anything yet.

Actually, no. It is that very thought process, that knowledge and consideration, that MAKES you creative. It is the very reason I include persons of color, various sexualities, and religious beliefs, in my work. Because I absolutely do "write to market" in that way. And I've found, as every other writer has, that it forces me to grow as a craftsman and artist

 

[Christopher Michael]

Yeah. Seven zeroes, like Riley J Dennis, who has to give the books away.

That's a completely different situation, as everyone can easily see. Irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Russ]

Yeah. Seven zeroes, like Riley J Dennis, who has to give the books away.

I have no idea who Riley J Dennis is. But the list of people who make seven figures a year by writing books intentionally with a right wing political slant is long and well known. The list on the left is pretty good as well.

You also suggest that people who worry about who they are marketing to and maximizing sales are creatively lost. In your world I guess only good literature is available listening to readings in coffee houses by people who don't care about sales or their audience.

Do you actually know any authors who make seven figures a year from their writing?

 

[Annoyingkid]

You also suggest that people who worry about who they are marketing to and maximizing sales are creatively lost. In your world I guess only good literature is available listening to readings in coffee houses by people who don't care about sales or their audience.

You're going to an extreme. A certain degree of caring about an audience is required to prevent one from filling their works with self indulgent tripe. But you are creatively lost if your mind is full of demographics, statistics, social justice, real world politics, money instead of the conventions of narrative: Emotion, philosophy, development, design, conflict, choreography, iconography, meaning. These are the things that fill my mind. My job isn't that of an agent, or an activist, or a preacher. If money you crave, just write teen harlequin romance novels with damaged, borderline abusive, male love interests. Or better yet get a real job. Otherwise the people making seven figures from their writing remain a small, elite handful in this industry.

Do you actually know any authors who make seven figures a year from their writing?

What, personally? No. You?

 

[Russ]

You're going to an extreme. A certain degree of caring about an audience is required to prevent one from filling their works with self indulgent tripe. But you are creatively lost if your mind is full of demographics, statistics, social justice, real world politics, money instead of the conventions of narrative: Emotion, philosophy, development, design, conflict, choreography, iconography, meaning. These are the things that fill my mind. My job isn't that of an agent, or an activist, or a preacher. If money you crave, just write teen harlequin romance novels with damaged, borderline abusive, male love interests. Or better yet get a real job. Otherwise the people making seven figures from their writing remain a small, elite handful in this industry.

I am not being extreme...I am just quoting you.

By the by, how much do you think people who bang out harlequins make? Do you think that is the way to get rich or even make a decent living? If you think the seven figure people are too elite, we can talk about the five and six figure people and their focus on business or politics as well if you like.

Many authors think about their audience all the time and the business model.

For instance James Patterson spends a ton of time thinking about the business end of publishing and writes to it. So do many other successful authors.

Another example is Lee Child who said this:

"My job as as a writer is not really to please myself it is to understand the public," he said. "And I think people make it very clear what they want is another Reacher book next year. So there really is no motivation to stray outside of that."

"To put it another way, if I was J.K. Rowling I would be writing 'Harry Potter' forever because that's what people like."

How many zeroes do you think he has on his advance check?

For another example Brad Thor writes very political work for a right wing audience. He is very clear, and in fact strict about it. He won't even blurb other authors who don't pass his political litmus test.

How many zeros do you think he has on his advance check?

The other thing your post presupposes is that one is incapable of having great writing skills and a great sense of your business and how the industry works. There are lots of writers whose craft rises to the highest level who are obsessed, well informed and active in the business side of their writing and the industry in general.

And if you think your agent will take care of all the market issues and everything else for you, until you an industry on your own, you are sorely mistaken. Both the traditionally published author and the self-pub author today more than ever need to have an active hand in the business and marketing side of their career.

What, personally? No. You?

Yeah, personally, like sat down and talked to. Me, lots. More than a dozen.

And why you chose to pick on that trans person as an example of failure is beyond me.

Oh...and one other thing. Writing commercial fiction is a real job.