Barbarically Unoriginal

[Androxine Vortex]

(I was going to put this originaly in my "Orc or Ork?" thread but realized these are unrelated questions)

For another project of mine, it is going to be told through the perspective of an Orc. For the story he is the son of his Tribe's War Chief and as you may have guessed, there's a lot of fighting and bloodshed in this plot. The only concern is, I'm not sure if I want to portray the Orcs as a well, sterotypical orc. In my setting, the orcs have been cast aside from society and forced to live in the far corner of the world so i suppose that would call for a reason to be barbaric. I just don't want to seem like I am using the same definition of an orc even though it would fit well. The other races for this would be more civilized but the orcs prefer the "old ways" best, which the other races look down upon as being primative. I guess I don't want to "hop on the bandwagon" when it comes to writting about orcs. I guess it's just personally I try not to use mainstream fantasy. Yeah I suppose I could portray them differently but I'm not sure. Any thoughts?

 

[James Chandler]

Interesting idea. I know it's not very helpful, but it sounds like me you need to write it. Consider changing the name they call themselves, maybe only the other "races" call them orcs. It sounds like you have an interesting idea for a brutish race, it will be what you make of it.

 

[Queshire]

I suggest looking at real life cultures and using them as your base. For example Orcs in my story live in an honorable culture that's a combination of Ancient Rome and Feudal Japan.

For your Orcs, look into marginalized cultures. Immediately the Gypsies springs to mind, but there's also other nomadic or isolated cultures, like the Siberian eskimos (I doubt that's what they're called) that herd reindeer or such cultures like the Mongrols. Sure to the rest of the world they may be hellish barbarians, but what are they like at home? They're not just barbarians, they love, they laugh, they learn, and all those other things that begin with an L.

Another thing to consider is WHY do they fight? I don't care who you are, fighting is scary, so what makes them go out and beat people up and not say, stay home and become farmers? Who do they fight to protect? Who do they fight to punish? Who do they fight to honor? Nobody just goes to fight 'cause it's their job, there's always SOME reason, even if it's because they don't know anything else.

Hope that helped.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

I suggest looking at real life cultures and using them as your base. For example Orcs in my story live in an honorable culture that's a combination of Ancient Rome and Feudal Japan.

For your Orcs, look into marginalized cultures. Immediately the Gypsies springs to mind, but there's also other nomadic or isolated cultures, like the Siberian eskimos (I doubt that's what they're called) that herd reindeer or such cultures like the Mongrols. Sure to the rest of the world they may be hellish barbarians, but what are they like at home? They're not just barbarians, they love, they laugh, they learn, and all those other things that begin with an L.

Another thing to consider is WHY do they fight? I don't care who you are, fighting is scary, so what makes them go out and beat people up and not say, stay home and become farmers? Who do they fight to protect? Who do they fight to punish? Who do they fight to honor? Nobody just goes to fight 'cause it's their job, there's always SOME reason, even if it's because they don't know anything else.

Hope that helped.

I understand your point about the "why." After thinking about it when I went to bed last night (I always better formulate my thoughts when I'm trying to sleep) I thought that I could still make the Orcs savage and war-like yet not so mainstream. Like I said, the Orcs stick to the "Old Ways" of life (don't have an exact definition yet) and that the other races look down upon it as being primative. I could probably dress that up a bit and expand. I was wondering if I wanted to have the Orcs worship a diety, perhaps a god of war. But since my other project is sooooo invloved with mythology I decided not to. Instead I was thinking of having the Orcs be like shamans with reincarnation.

They believe that all Orcs came from the Earth. And I mean directly literaly born from the Earth. They also believe that when you die, there is no Heaven or Hell, instead you are reincarnated back in some shape or form. Orcs use like voodoo "magic" and when they get into a frenzied state of mind and their adrenaline starts pumping, the blood of their ancestors begins flowing through their veins. Their senses become sharper and that is what causes their war-like behavior. Perhaps the connection and sensation is strongest in the heat of battle? I really think I could make something original with this "ancestral reincarnation" idea I have going, this way they can keep their barbaric ways yet still have a culture and some color.

The Vikings believed in "dying by the sword" and the concept of "Valhalla" so I guess that could work for the Orcs. Except that when you die, a part of you is brought back in the form of another Orc combatant or something.

(I could even use the calling of the ancestors as a way to explain why the other races detest them. Perhaps the Elves said that they were using sorcerey to commune and consort with the dead and thus labeling the Orcs as savage and possible even on the verge of heretical)

 

[SeverinR]

I like the suggestion they call themselves something other then orcs, but are labeled as the evil blood thirsty eat the offspring of other humanoids, thive on violence culture that is stereotypical orcdom.
When trying to defeat an enemy, the first step is to make them non-human, actually anti-humans, that can not co-exist with real humans. Leaders portray them as they are against everything good in human life, and must be destroyed before they can destroy civilization.
Maybe they are vikings, Apache, or similar to other nomadic(semi-nomadic) people that survived on taking what they needed from anyone in their path. Not out of hatred, but survival, not knowing how to do otherwise.

 

[Fnord]

Something that you might enjoy and help your perspective is reading Chinua Achebe's Things Fall Apart, which is about the "Christianization" of Africa from the point-of-view of an African tribesman named Okonkwo. To a Western reader Okonkwo isn't immediately a protagonist you empathize with, but it certainly is a good perspective on the idea of marginalization of cultures.

 

[Queshire]

If you're going for that type of feel then I suggest looking at some of the Pacific island cultures like the Maori, they had some frankly ****ed up stuff.

Also think about how orcs from different tribes interact. Do they attack each other? Or view each other as brothers in arms? Do they strictly avoid each other's territory? Do they team up against bigger threats?

How does communicating with ancestors work with reincarnation? Wouldn't the dead orcs they're trying to communicate with have already reincarnated?

Also, how does reincarnation work? Is there an end to the cycle? Like with buddhism (buddhism has reincarnation right?) How is what they reincarnate as determined? Is it just random, or based off their actions in life, like if you lived a life full of valor and honor you reincarnate as a bigger and badder beastie (like a T-REX!) while if you were cowardly in life you might end up in a more pathetic form, like a cow.

It doesn't matter if it's true or not, what the Orqs believe is important.

Might I suggest a more traditional ancestor worship? Like upon death you become essentially a small god, working to keep the world spinning and all that, while keeping an eye on your descendents, with how powerful you are determined by how glorious your life was. I forget the specific culture but I think some real life tribes had something like that.

Another thing to consider is how non-combatants are treated. There has to be SOMEONE making the weapons, herding the animals, and so on. This page might give you suggestions on this matter; Klingon Scientists Get No Respect - Television Tropes & Idioms

Because it seems that Orqs are going to be a main element in your story, you need to develop their culture much more then if you were going to have them as just random berserkers.

 

[Anders Ämting]

You know, I always kinda wondered: How do the sterotypical "evil maurauder" type orcs actually survive? I mean, where do they get their food? Where are the orc farmers? They can't all survive on plundering, and being hunter-gatherers implies small nomadic tribes, certainly not large armies of fairly well-equipped warriors. Armies need supplies and, you know, infrastructure.

Maybe the orc females are the one doing the farming? I guess that would explain why all orcs in Tolkien's stories seem to be male.

Same thing goes for Klingons, actually. There must be Klingon farmers, or Klingons otherwise preoccupied with making sure people have things to eat and clothes to wear and tools to use, etc. Not just a few of them, but a considerable percentage of their population. Their entire society simply cannot be made up of warriors.

Everyone knows vikings liked to take their ships out and plunder the coastlines of whatever region had stuff worth taking and yes, they did have a warrior culture and thought dying in battle was awesome. But most of them also had farms back home, and they were often very savvy merchants as well.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

@Queshire
I don't have anything really finalized yet so I'm just making different ideas at this point. I know for a fact i don't want the Orcs invloved with "religion." I want them to have these shamanistic beliefs but I want them to not worship anything. Instead of worshiping their ancestors they are (if anything) "honoring" them. I did a little research on different religions and beliefs regarding reincarnation and I think I developed something that would work.

I don't want the dead to actually reincarnate back to life, I just want the Orcs to somehow call upon the strength of their ancestors. Maybe through their blood or something? I really don't have a clue on the "why" and "how" right now, I just have a vague idea of what I would like. Thanks for the article, it was a good read.

@Anders
You have good points as well. It's going to take awhile to make up a decent culture though. This is what I have so far:

I know I definetly want the Orc culture to be scattered and undivided. All of the Orcs live in their segregated corner of the world. Instead of being a unified force, there are many different tribes and clans (sort of like the Indians here only much more violent lol) The different War Chiefs lead these clans and often fight over territory, food, and killing just for the sake of killing. They're not evil though. They aren't servants of darkness like in LOTR they are just a race that happens to enjoy killing. Like i said in my previous post about them having their ancestral-berserk-mode.

 

[Queshire]

Few things scream primative & badass like sacred tattoos, maybe have their entire family history litterally etched into their skin along with the acomplishments of said ancestors, maybe they aren't green at all, but they're described as green due to the sacred green ink in their tattoos completely covering their bodies.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I'm not sure I totally understand your vision, but they could be like the native americans, strongly tied to the earth, the natural gods, and the living things around them. Personally, I think it would be inventive if an orc thanked the spirit of the animal he'd just killed for food. (I don't mean this at all in any way relating to the history of being driven off their native lands, but that too might apply, I just meant in regard to the orcs' spiritual views/ religions and clannish nature)
Most people think of orcs as hulking brutes, but it would be very interesting to portray them as a misunderstood race of highly-intelligent and spiritual beings who have made the best of a rough life and fought to keep their rich history and culture.....
On a side note, I responded to your other thread before reading this one..... and maybe don't call them orcs at all, but refer to two or three major groups of them by their clan names alone like we now refer to groups of native americans by their tribe rather than grouping them all as one big racial term, which wouldn't encompass all the diverse groups appropriately.

 

[SlimShady]

I understand your point about the "why." After thinking about it when I went to bed last night (I always better formulate my thoughts when I'm trying to sleep) I thought that I could still make the Orcs savage and war-like yet not so mainstream. Like I said, the Orcs stick to the "Old Ways" of life (don't have an exact definition yet) and that the other races look down upon it as being primative. I could probably dress that up a bit and expand. I was wondering if I wanted to have the Orcs worship a diety, perhaps a god of war. But since my other project is sooooo invloved with mythology I decided not to. Instead I was thinking of having the Orcs be like shamans with reincarnation.

They believe that all Orcs came from the Earth. And I mean directly literaly born from the Earth. They also believe that when you die, there is no Heaven or Hell, instead you are reincarnated back in some shape or form. Orcs use like voodoo "magic" and when they get into a frenzied state of mind and their adrenaline starts pumping, the blood of their ancestors begins flowing through their veins. Their senses become sharper and that is what causes their war-like behavior. Perhaps the connection and sensation is strongest in the heat of battle? I really think I could make something original with this "ancestral reincarnation" idea I have going, this way they can keep their barbaric ways yet still have a culture and some color.

The Vikings believed in "dying by the sword" and the concept of "Valhalla" so I guess that could work for the Orcs. Except that when you die, a part of you is brought back in the form of another Orc combatant or something.

(I could even use the calling of the ancestors as a way to explain why the other races detest them. Perhaps the Elves said that they were using sorcerey to commune and consort with the dead and thus labeling the Orcs as savage and possible even on the verge of heretical)

Well to expand on what you've said you could take the reincarnation thing further. Maybe the orcs believe that when they die that there is a chance that they will be reincarnated as an elf, human, etc. The orcs view being reincarnated as anything other than an orc as a terrible, hellish fate. So what do they do? They wage war against the other races to "free there brethren from there cursed fates." This could make a pretty good reason for the other races disliking them. (Waging a geonocidal war on others will do that to you)

I think it'd be pretty interesting myself.

 

[dragonangel517]

There is actually a series using Orcs in unconventional ways. I have read the first book, and it is told from a womans point of view as she gets involved with the Orcs. You might want to check it out. Kings Property by Morgan Howell.

I think telling the story from the Orc's view would be really interesting and different.

 

[Kreigsbane]

Maybe introduce your character as different because he wants to combine the old and new and perhaps add encounters with another orc that is also different that experiments with technology or something like that.

 

[Konstanz]

Maybe a little late but I just wanted to give my personal opinion on the matter.

Yes, Orcs (or Orks) like you portrayed them in your original post are rather cliché. They seem like primitive brutes that revel in violence and that live in a tribal warrior society. There are people who have made such a cliché work though. I think of Warhammer. That world is rifled with cliché's but at the same time, the world is very well-made and very intricate. The result of many, many lore writers.

If you don't like to write clichés then don't. Why not have Orcs live in a less brutal society? With their own cities and instead of tribes or clans with "great noble houses" or something like that. Sure, it would change the concept entirely but... maybe it's worth if you don't want to worry too much about clichés.

Or you could just create a different race and forget about the generic and over-used fantasy races. I don't think that there are still many people left that want to read about Orcs for a 100th time.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

Thank you everybody for your responses. I think I have an idea in mind. Why not be a little bit cliche and and little bit not? Since the Orcs are scattered and divided, I was thinking of having the MC be in a tribal clan and thet they could be the cliche Orc but then they find a city of intelligent Orcs who have made technological advancements (such as forgery and metalurgy) At first the tribes would view the "city-orcs" as being like "human and elf scum" and that they are abandoning the "old ways" but then eventually side with them in the single goal of conquest. The more civilized Orcs would be able to give the tribal warrior Orcs better weapons and armor and lead them by strategum and tactics.

And I thought that the reincarnation into an elf was a very interesting idea. Never would have thought of that but not not sure if I'll use it just yet.