How do you treat gods in your setting?

[A. E. Lowan]

I dont understand this. Are you saying Gods are used too much in too many stories as like a Dues ex Machina device? I wonder if you could expand this thought.

There may be people who just pop in a lot of Gods because they feel they have to have them. I dont know. I feel that, for a story to reflect a real people and a real world where things have evolved over time, there would have to be some level of including belief in Gods or God. It would be important to many, and should be treated such.

Deux ex Machina can be a lot of fun when dealt with delicately. We've got one running around and we've seen him in all three books so far. So far, so good.

 

[Incanus]

Sounds a lot like how religion was viewed in Rome, Republic to early Empire or so. It worked well.

It's a bit like that.

The two pantheons in question began on different continents, but when one group sailed to the new place, they brought the old gods with them (so to speak). Then after many centuries in the new world, most inhabitants of the region are aware of both, and can choose between them (or not). The kingdom where my story starts has a history of interaction between both these peoples, plus others, so they are well known.

And then the new religion was founded in this same area as well, but much more recently.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

It's a bit like that.

The two pantheons in question began on different continents, but when one group sailed to the new place, they brought the old gods with them (so to speak). Then after many centuries in the new world, most inhabitants of the region are aware of both, and can choose between them (or not). The kingdom where my story starts has a history of interaction between both these peoples, plus others, so they are well known.

And then the new religion was founded in this same area as well, but much more recently.

Yeah, that really does sound Roman, but not like an homage or an analogue. The Romans were world champions of hedging their bets, so they would collect gods like one would collect Pokémon. If you've seen The Mummy, the good one with Brendan Frasier and Rachel Weisz, you'll probably remember Bennie and the scene where he's praying for help from each of the deities represented by his various pendants. That's a really great example. Now, think Caesar's march through Gaul, and you've got a foot soldier the night before battle. Good stuff.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

My fantasy Setting is a 'gods are people too' setting. Not just in how they act but they're easily destroyable, you just need to be 'clever' about it. A lot of the story is about 'humanizing' these powerful characters and getting them to fit in with the normal humans and mages of the world.

There's a hierarchy of god hood though.

Head God: The leader of the gods, takes the form of The middle sister Deus EX, The younger more timid Sister Machina, and rarely (When world ending threats appear and need to be confronted in a more...direct manner.) the Eldest Sister Deus X Machina.

Spoiler

If you spotted the joke here, pat yourself on the back, even though it's fairly obvious

Elementals: Underneath the head god but not by much. They take the form of the elements of nature. They squabble a lot over petty things and are more dysfunctional than an order of elves without a King.

Demigods: Beings of mighty power but still lower than Elementals. They are often born of Elementals themselves (who sometimes take human form to uh, you know) or from families and bloodlines blessed by the Elementals for any given reason. (One Demigod exists because he bought some dango for the water Elemental...)

Dragons: In this story there are traditional dragons, the species of humanoids known as the Dragon Kin, and a bloodline not linked to family, species, or tribe. In God language the word 'Dragon' translates to 'like a god'. These beings are near as powerful as demigods, while being significantly more...mortal. Attaining the title of Dragon can be done in numerous ways (a common way is through various trials like Herculeses' twelve trials), but the most revered way are the natural borne dragons. As they have a very low survival rating and the fact that they live past childhood at all is a testament to their strength. Power wise they are between Demigods and Elementals.

Mages: Regular old mages simply capable of using magic on a fundamental level. A powerful enough one could put up a fight with a Dragon, but only if they had batman prep time.

Lightless: To put it bluntly, regular ass humans/elves/whatevers that don't have any magic whatsoever. They have not (or could not) opened their 'third eye' and thus were not touched by the 'light' of magic. There's also some rogue mages who were once a menace to society that are now lightless.

 

[kalleenmei]

I'm writing a lot about creation and origins of things lately and I've started wrestling with how much I want gods in my setting to play a role beyond just a creation myth. To me it feels like gods are used as a crutch a lot just to solve a problem without too much thought or they get added just for the sake of having this complex Greek myth style pantheon. It's just something that's tumbling around in my head and I can't find a place that I like yet. What do you guys think?

I have problems writing gods too... Sadly, I treat them more like just doing their job and make them moral like a human; they can't feel anything like a human but understand their suffering as they are their creations.

This is only me, but you can make them either more human or minus human and more like a concept, it would be cool to see a god who is totally unconscious of humanity or galaxies

 

[barrowyarrow]

Well. You are calling creation a myth. You have to decide if they are even real or not.

I would say, even in those creation myths people gave a lot of thought to their gods.

The real question is what do you want to write about? Any world with multiple cultures and diverse people are gonna have plenty of stories about gods.

I want to treat it like there's a kernel of truth under a lot of myth. Like in real world mythology where we have all these stories that seems like larger than life, unbelievable feats but they're actually an ancient person's attempt to rationalize a natural event. Gods in history are typically along those lines of being less actual figures and more personifications of observed phenomena. In my setting I want these deities to be real, but like historical examples where they don't directly influence much and their existence and nature is still debated. That's kind of how I'm treating this I suppose.

 

[barrowyarrow]

I dont understand this. Are you saying Gods are used too much in too many stories as like a Dues ex Machina device? I wonder if you could expand this thought.

There may be people who just pop in a lot of Gods because they feel they have to have them. I dont know. I feel that, for a story to reflect a real people and a real world where things have evolved over time, there would have to be some level of including belief in Gods or God. It would be important to many, and should be treated such.

What I mean here is that it's a common trope I've encountered where the hero is either protected by a god or is given a tool or weapon by the gods within the setting. This usually comes attached with the notion that this god figure is impossibly powerful and is interested in seeing the hero succeed, but won't do anything more than a boon to help. It takes me out of the story instantly.

 

[Orc Knight]

What I mean here is that it's a common trope I've encountered where the hero is either protected by a god or is given a tool or weapon by the gods within the setting. This usually comes attached with the notion that this god figure is impossibly powerful and is interested in seeing the hero succeed, but won't do anything more than a boon to help. It takes me out of the story instantly.

That's kind of a thing that goes back to the ancient heroes. Perseus got the mirror shield from Athena to go take off Medusa's head and the god's often granted such boons. So of course it's echoed even in modern stories.

 

[Queshire]

When visiting my setting you'd probably run into Artificial Spirits first. They basically play the role of sci-fi style (not real world) AI and are treated as such. Still, despite their artificial origin they are still spirits and could theoretically become demons or gods in time.

Natural spirits are spirits of things that specifically exist. You might have a spirit of some sacred forest, a section of coastline, a particular sword or a specific neighborhood. Even abstract spirits such as war, murder or love are meant to watch and observe specific moments of the thing. If you get advice or a blessing from a spirit of love then what you get is really just a result of centuries spent observing moments of love and something with mana specifically attuned to love. Technically speaking, it's nothing that a mortal mage couldn't achieve even if no mortal mage will ever be that specialized in practice.

Spirits vary widely in power, attitude towards humans and the attitude humans have towards them. Some have temples and are worshipped, but others don't want to be bothered by mortals and just want to get on with their work. Still, when your livelihood relies on fishing then you want to be aware of the attitude & inclinations of the spirit in charge of that section of the sea.

If spirits oversee what exists then gods oversee meaning. Calling someone a God of the Ocean is just a shorthand. The might be the God of the primal, overwhelming power of the ocean, or the God of the life giving abundance of the ocean that gives rise to sea life in all it's multitudes and allow mortals to make a living from its waters, or the might be the God of the wonderous distant horizon that urges people to visit distant shores.

The Gods are characters in their own right, but what makes a god a god in my setting is that each hold a fragment of Truth. They're a mystery to study, an ideal for one to strive to embody or a horrible reality to inflict on others.

Artificial spirits aside, I want to avoid treating gods as just a list of names & what they're in charge of by having them be immediately relevant to the character's everday life in the case of spirits and with gods focus on how they add to the lives of those who follow them even if they only get a paragraph of description to them.

 

[Devor]

My setting has twelve magic systems, even though the story only focuses on the one fairy magic type, but it's important to me that they have an illusion of balance, even if I know the bare minimum about the other eleven. That may sound random to mention here, but the gods are included as part of the magic system, so the setting has twelve parallel pantheons and otherworlds. This means there's a lot of them, but also that they can't be too powerful.

For the fairy gods, which are the only ones I've developed at all, I had three main goals:

1) I wanted characters who feel like they've had their own greek tragedies or norse sagas or medieval operas written about them.

2) I wanted them to feel like they've affected the world a lot without creating it, having their own "domains" like harvest or storms, or being worshipped exactly (too much mischief for worship).

3) I wanted about seven of them to exist in a way that's reminiscent of Link seeking out and getting help from the 7 sages in Hyrule (that doesn't mean the story will necessarily visit more than one or two of them).

The result is that there's about fifty of them, but most of them are in the fairy otherworld, where all the fairy magic comes from and is most powerful. About every hundred years they've created a powerful artifact as a gift for the fairy kingdom. These artifacts have had a huge impact on the region and history and in growing the magic and influence of the fairy kingdom over time. And over time about seven of these powerful fairy creatures have come out of the otherworld and remained, mostly because of family drama squabbles, even though they've lost some of their magic by doing so, and they have popped in and out of the history books over time. They have their own personalities and a reputation they've gathered over time. If you can get one to help you, it'd be a big deal.

Of course, that still leaves me with a problem of how the world was created and where these magical otherworlds come from. I've looked at doing a cosmology similar to the one in Marvel of all things, with abstract entities like "Oblivion" and "Eternity", but I haven't landed on anything I'm happy with. At this point though I don't think it matters.

 

[pmmg]

I want to treat it like there's a kernel of truth under a lot of myth. Like in real world mythology where we have all these stories that seems like larger than life, unbelievable feats but they're actually an ancient person's attempt to rationalize a natural event. Gods in history are typically along those lines of being less actual figures and more personifications of observed phenomena. In my setting I want these deities to be real, but like historical examples where they don't directly influence much and their existence and nature is still debated. That's kind of how I'm treating this I suppose.

You could take the view that the Gods were more active in earlier time's and have become less visibly active as things have evolved, thus those ancient stories with their threads of truth may have more truth than one might think. It could also be that those stories are metaphorically true, or carry metaphorical truths, while not being actually true. Perhaps there never really was a garden, buts its still true man upset God. The truth is there, but its mixed in with legend and myth.

What I mean here is that it's a common trope I've encountered where the hero is either protected by a god or is given a tool or weapon by the gods within the setting. This usually comes attached with the notion that this god figure is impossibly powerful and is interested in seeing the hero succeed, but won't do anything more than a boon to help. It takes me out of the story instantly.

First, I would take all uses of the word 'trope' and toss them somewhere where it is never used again.

Is this something you encounter often? What you have written above, with gods giving weapons and looking after heroes? I am not personally aware of a large number of stories where this happens. I wonder if the number of these types of tales is as great as perceived.

Like many of us, things that are included in stories are trying to say something. Could it be that the authors who do use gods in their stories in an active way are trying to say something about the relationship between man and god, and are in fact looking to answer some of the big questions about mans relationship to them. The Greek gods, for instance, were somewhat active in the affairs of man, Zeus giving Perseus a sword to slay medusa with, but the story is not really about the things given to Perseus, but that the Gods play a direct role in the outcome of heroes. Likewise, the Norse stories often depict Gods as living in their own world and disengaged with man...looking instead to let men live their fate, and rewarding them when they face their fate bravely.

It could be, there are a large number of authors who are using their gods as a 'get out of jail' free card in their stories, but I suspect, those who bring the Gods in have something they are trying to say with them. And that message should be important, as it was important enough to put into the story. Every story must stand on its own, but they should not be discounted because of the use of Gods. Questions about Man and God plaque us all. It is a great unanswered question we must all face. Are their Gods and what does it mean if their are (and what does it mean if there aren't?). Some people try to speak to that directly, some indirectly, and some as if they never were and don't matter, but ... the question still matters. Its always in the background somewhere.

To me, this is more of an execution problem. If the story is executing poorly, these things you don't wish to see will glare as a poor 'trope' but when done well, it will resonate, and trope will not be a suitable word.

The best thing you can do, is tell the best story you can. And show me its meaning.

It does not have to have Gods in it. But...I wont go looking down on those who do.

 

[ThinkerX]

The entirely immaterial High God presides over the afterlife, offering nudges and insights to mortals.

'Angels' - also spiritual beings, sometimes visit the mortal world directly, possessing the bodies of willing hosts.

Rarely, esteemed mortals will become Saints. Their teachings strengthen moral fiber, offer comfort, and provide inspiration. What is forbidden to them is engaging in violence, save in defense, and then only to the extent necessary. They often operate outside of the religious hierarchies. (Their teachings frequently vary from the orthodox, so the priesthoods play them down.)

Angels and Saints make multiple appearances in my stories.

Lovecraftian entities sometimes masquerade as Angels, Saints, or Pagan Gods. 'Empire' revolves around the exploits of two such beings.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

You could take the view that the Gods were more active in earlier time's and have become less visibly active as things have evolved, thus those ancient stories with their threads of truth may have more truth than one might think. It could also be that those stories are metaphorically true, or carry metaphorical truths, while not being actually true. Perhaps there never really was a garden, buts its still true man upset God. The truth is there, but its mixed in with legend and myth.




First, I would take all uses of the word 'trope' and toss them somewhere where it is never used again.

Yes. Yes. A thousand times yes. I totally understand that these days most young writers are limited - weird word for this - to the internet for their literary and professional educations, but TV Tropes and the like do not a Lang and Lit Department make, and can give an unrealistic expectation of what writing and authorship look like in the wild. We're writers. Do not fear the book, and trust me when I say this entire profession is fear and books. Engage in building your library... starting... now. Make it so.

Is this something you encounter often? What you have written above, with gods giving weapons and looking after heroes? I am not personally aware of a large number of stories where this happens. I wonder if the number of these types of tales is as great as perceived.

Oh, goodness. There's a lot to choose from out there, and it's a delightful opportunity to not only add some notches on the old education's headboard, one can and will level up while doing something we all actually enjoy. Reading. And for those who do not, um, hi! Not entirely sure how you got here, but greetings and salutations and are you sure you want a life of frustration and misery and doing terrible things to your bestest friends? I hear people who don't write enjoy hobbies and sleep and stuff. True?

But no, I got distracted again. Yeah, Lowan, try again, this time with coherent thought. Just off the top of my head from researching myth and legend for the Books of Binding I can say that we got the entire idea of named weapons that talk, even, from all over. Some are gifted by gods, some are not but by beings of incredible power all by themselves. Manannan mac Lir of Ireland bears the sword Fragarach which saps the strength of his opponents. There is some debate as to if he's more god or more Tuatha De Danaan. Perseus of Greece, like you say below, is armed with various tools and weapons to help him slay Medusa. The Norse gods. That's all that one needs. And that's just three from Europe. We've got a few more continents to search, not to mention the islands that dot our planet, but I guarantee there are many, many more.

Like many of us, things that are included in stories are trying to say something. Could it be that the authors who do use gods in their stories in an active way are trying to say something about the relationship between man and god, and are in fact looking to answer some of the big questions about mans relationship to them. The Greek gods, for instance, were somewhat active in the affairs of man, Zeus giving Perseus a sword to slay medusa with, but the story is not really about the things given to Perseus, but that the Gods play a direct role in the outcome of heroes. Likewise, the Norse stories often depict Gods as living in their own world and disengaged with man...looking instead to let men live their fate, and rewarding them when they face their fate bravely.

It could be, there are a large number of authors who are using their gods as a 'get out of jail' free card in their stories, but I suspect, those who bring the Gods in have something they are trying to say with them. And that message should be important, as it was important enough to put into the story. Every story must stand on its own, but they should not be discounted because of the use of Gods. Questions about Man and God plaque us all. It is a great unanswered question we must all face. Are their Gods and what does it mean if their are (and what does it mean if there aren't?). Some people try to speak to that directly, some indirectly, and some as if they never were and don't matter, but ... the question still matters. Its always in the background somewhere.

To me, this is more of an execution problem. If the story is executing poorly, these things you don't wish to see will glare as a poor 'trope' but when done well, it will resonate, and trope will not be a suitable word.

The best thing you can do, is tell the best story you can. And show me its meaning.

It does not have to have Gods in it. But...I wont go looking down on those who do.

Here here.

 

[skip.knox]

I have left open the matter of gods. Some of the people of Altearth believe there are gods, much as they do in real Earth. To those people, the gods are real. Altearth dwarves revere ancestors, but they don't "believe in gods" (a slippery phrase if ever there was one). Humans observe proper rites toward the Roman pantheon, as befits the inheritors of the Roman Empire. The orcs worship a god, as symbolized by the sun. Theirs is a monotheistic religion.

As for others, I've not sorted that out. Sprites, trolls, a variety of fae such as nyads, all those are still shrouded in mystery (no one is ever shrouded in clarity). As for elves, well, that's complicated. I do think pixie religion would be fun to pry into, but that would surely be a long tumble down the rabbit hole.

In practice, I've not had a need for gods. Everyone goes about their business in my stories with nary a godling in sight. If there are Altearth gods, I'll thank them to stay well off stage.

 

[minta]

I'm writing a lot about creation and origins of things lately and I've started wrestling with how much I want gods in my setting to play a role beyond just a creation myth. To me it feels like gods are used as a crutch a lot just to solve a problem without too much thought or they get added just for the sake of having this complex Greek myth style pantheon. It's just something that's tumbling around in my head and I can't find a place that I like yet. What do you guys think?

They’re pretty much nature in humanoid form. There isn’t a single chief god, but a loose hierarchy based on age.

 

[xena]

My gods exist because people believe in them. They need belief to stay alive, but they also have to give people a reason to keep believing. Some gods are kind while others rule through fear.

 

[Quinn_Patrick]

I'm seeing a lot of really high concept stuff in this thread, which is definitely popular in current fantasy material. That's fine, but I always try to root my worldbuilding concepts in material that's more timeless and rooted in ancient human history. Do bear in mind that I'm not an expert on these topics historically speaking, but I find that these ideas give me an alternative basis for gods in fantasy writing that help me achieve a more timeless flavor.

What we now consider the "gods" of pagan societies were, to their worshippers in some cultures at least, not separate from the forces of nature they represented. In modern times it's logical to ask someone "do you believe in God," but to an ancient Egyptian, "do you believe in Ra" would be a stupid question. That's because Ra is the sun, and you can see the sun! It's obviously real, and it's effect on the world and the lives of its worshippers is undeniable and profound. If you take that and add the additional belief that these forces of nature are anthropomorphic and can be placated or reasoned with by using gifts, sacrifices, or rituals, then you basically have a pagan religion.

Now, in my story, I decided to go with an analogue of the Hebrew God, the one with the four letter name who's still pretty famous today. This God is an interesting character because, unlike all the Gods that came before Him, the Hebrew God is a purely spiritual being. You can't see Him or talk to Him or anything like that (except in a few particular cases). Unlike the sun, he doesn't inhabit the material world. Capital-G God doesn't necessarily claim to be the only God (if you're up on your Psalms you may know that He explicitly isn't the only God), but He does have dominion over the other Gods. How does He demonstrate his dominion over the king of Egypt? He extinguishes the sun and creates darkness for three days, specifically dominating the most powerful force of nature (or god) in Egyptian life.

There are some other wrinkles that I decided to add. Did it ever occur to you that in Genesis, when God first creates the world, He gives Adam and Eve only one rule, and they break it immediately. Then, in the Sinai wilderness, God gives the Israelites tons of rules! Way more than just ten! Could it be that what God saw in the garden taught Him that humans need more rigid order to not misbehave? Is it possible for God to learn from his mistakes? Did He not already know that would happen, and needed to learn it from experience? "Nobody has all the answers" is one of the themes of my story, so what better way to explore it than by applying it to the almighty Himself?

 

[Mad Swede]

I'm writing a lot about creation and origins of things lately and I've started wrestling with how much I want gods in my setting to play a role beyond just a creation myth. To me it feels like gods are used as a crutch a lot just to solve a problem without too much thought or they get added just for the sake of having this complex Greek myth style pantheon. It's just something that's tumbling around in my head and I can't find a place that I like yet. What do you guys think?

Maybe you need to take a step back and think about what sort of story you want to write. Where is your focus? I ask that because in my experience the sort of story you write has an impact on how you set up the deities and on the impact they have in the setting.

As a simple example, in a high fantasy story the heroes might find some sword blessed by the gods or whatever, and this will be needed to defeat the big bad. Or the gods might intervene to grant some power or ability, or revive someone. An epic scale to a story needs epic events in order to save the world, and in a setting like that it is OK to have the deities be some form of (limited) deus ex machina.

Alternatively, you might have your story focus on the various protagonists and their struggles in the world, which might give a more low fantasy setting. In that situation, it might be the way worship of the deities is organised which is more important for the story (e.g. priests playing politics) rather than faith in the deities themselves.

In all my published stories I've tended to have a focus on the way organised worship of the various deities can influence what happens to people and their societies rather than focus on the actions of the deities. That's partly (probably mainly) because most of my work is based on places and events I've seen during my military career, and so I'm more interested in how and why people act the way they do. In that sense it become the motivations and actions of the various people the protagonists have to to deal with which drives the plot and some sub-plots. With that written, the existence of the deities gives and opportunity to deepen the setting by having temples, festivals and the names given to some natural phenomena reflect the pantheon the locals believe in.

 

[Rexenm]

That's because Ra is the sun, and you can see the sun!

I like Apocalypse and Armageddon in this fantasy setting, but staying away from sin, it is hard. That is because of numerous accidents and coincidences being the reason I don’t count myself an atheist, embarrassing I know.

 

[pmmg]

I'm seeing a lot of really high concept stuff in this thread, which is definitely popular in current fantasy material. That's fine, but I always try to root my worldbuilding concepts in material that's more timeless and rooted in ancient human history. Do bear in mind that I'm not an expert on these topics historically speaking, but I find that these ideas give me an alternative basis for gods in fantasy writing that help me achieve a more timeless flavor.

What we now consider the "gods" of pagan societies were, to their worshippers in some cultures at least, not separate from the forces of nature they represented. In modern times it's logical to ask someone "do you believe in God," but to an ancient Egyptian, "do you believe in Ra" would be a stupid question. That's because Ra is the sun, and you can see the sun! It's obviously real, and it's effect on the world and the lives of its worshippers is undeniable and profound. If you take that and add the additional belief that these forces of nature are anthropomorphic and can be placated or reasoned with by using gifts, sacrifices, or rituals, then you basically have a pagan religion.

Now, in my story, I decided to go with an analogue of the Hebrew God, the one with the four letter name who's still pretty famous today. This God is an interesting character because, unlike all the Gods that came before Him, the Hebrew God is a purely spiritual being. You can't see Him or talk to Him or anything like that (except in a few particular cases). Unlike the sun, he doesn't inhabit the material world. Capital-G God doesn't necessarily claim to be the only God (if you're up on your Psalms you may know that He explicitly isn't the only God), but He does have dominion over the other Gods. How does He demonstrate his dominion over the king of Egypt? He extinguishes the sun and creates darkness for three days, specifically dominating the most powerful force of nature (or god) in Egyptian life.

There are some other wrinkles that I decided to add. Did it ever occur to you that in Genesis, when God first creates the world, He gives Adam and Eve only one rule, and they break it immediately. Then, in the Sinai wilderness, God gives the Israelites tons of rules! Way more than just ten! Could it be that what God saw in the garden taught Him that humans need more rigid order to not misbehave? Is it possible for God to learn from his mistakes? Did He not already know that would happen, and needed to learn it from experience? "Nobody has all the answers" is one of the themes of my story, so what better way to explore it than by applying it to the almighty Himself?

The great things about fantasy is that we can take any whim of our desires and play a giant what if game, and come up with stories the explore what it all means, challenges maybe what people believe, and go to great extremes with it.

I have to ask, are these questions rhetorical? Cause I am not sure I can provide answers for them without going over the line of discussing religion.

I would suggest that there is far more in the New and Old testaments than a few lines in psalms, and while the Hebrews, and many others, existed in a time when many believed in other gods, that does not make them actual gods. There is plenty in the Bible to demonstrate that God was the asserting himself as the One True God over a wide variety of false gods. Jesus had to contend with this as well, cause there were many different belief sets in his time also (and still are today).

I will answer that I have considered those things. I suspect, in going on with your questions, you will arrive at a different place from your journey then where you thought you would when you began it.

And I wish you luck with it.