How do we know when its finished?

[El_d_ray]

Ah...but something can always be improved. Its a bottomless pit if you dont stop earlier than that.

In vacuum? Yes, but I should take into the account what can I do with the thing at my current level. If I personally cannot make it better right now without years of study, then the work is largely done. The other question is, should it be published or banished. The matter is to move on and don't exist in a loop.

I have an alright (in my opinion) script for a novel, that is in a second draft state, and I gave it others to read for some positive feedback. But in my opinion there are parts of the book that didn't work very well, and I pulled it to edit. Sadly, day job intervened and I just couldn't put time to work on it. Point is, right now I'd rather write it anew than go back to the original script in attempt to improve it.

 

[irinaabraham]

Just a general question for all, but what do you need to see, or feel, or reach to know the story is done, done, done...

really, its done, and you are not coming back to it.

How do you know?

I think you are never, never, never ever done. The only way is to have an awesome editor who will look you in the eyes and say: "my friend, it is time to let go."

 

[pmmg]

Thats what i wanted, but thats not been my experience with editors.

 

[irinaabraham]

I see. True, they keep finding something. But there is an end. I think it's important to find a good editor whom you trust and work with them to the end.

 

[pmmg]

I've worked with two editors. The first one was not the match I was hoping for, the second went line by line and gave me a lot of work to do.

Both of them would say something along to lines of...its your work, so take what I say as suggestion. You decide what really works for the story you want to tell.

Neither of them would ever say, it's good enough, go publish it. They would hedge too much before saying that.

For me, I like to do the best I can, and then some. Its the 'and then some' that I hope will make it stand out. But...I think I am finished when all I am doing is rearranging deck chairs, and not adding anything new. And I am getting sick of looking at it.

 

[irinaabraham]

I think being sick of looking at it is also a good sign to stop. Either go for querying/self-publishing or shelve for a while and come back with a fresh mind.

 

[pmmg]

Shelving it for a while never worked for me. If I put it aside for a year, and came back, it would only take a page or two before my mind was back in the weeds and sifting through word choices. For me, its just better to go when I have the energy all ready to go. Everyone is different, but its good to know yourself.

 

[irinaabraham]

Back in the weeds - so true! But you know, for me, if I feel like i'm back in the weeds - it is not ready... When I read the articles I published, I'm quite happy with them, albeit a few small things here and there. It is never the case with the long-form prose. So, I guess, it's not ready yet! Maybe, yours isn't either? It's so hard.

 

[pmmg]

Its never ready

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

I generally 'plan' for around 10 or so chapters. (sometimes 15 if I'm feeling spicey)
Could be more, could be less, if it's more maybe I'm too wordy if it's less maybe some chapters are too short.
Then again my chapters tend to be fairly long, with some being roughly 12-15 pages.
Though those are my longer chapters.

 

[Mad Swede]

I've worked with two editors. The first one was not the match I was hoping for, the second went line by line and gave me a lot of work to do.

Both of them would say something along to lines of...its your work, so take what I say as suggestion. You decide what really works for the story you want to tell.

Neither of them would ever say, it's good enough, go publish it. They would hedge too much before saying that.

These are signs that you've got the wrong editor, or that your relationship with your editor is not where it should be.

I've said it before, working with an editor is a partnership. You work together to make the book the best it can be. That means you have to be able to discuss the book and any changes in some depth. It starts with what the book is about, the themes, the story arcs and the character arcs. The discussions should be open and honest, which means you have to trust one another. You also have to know each other, what drives each of you and what you're looking for in a story. That way you get a good discussion and good results. Yes, you the author have the final word. But you the author should be listening to your editor. And your editor should tell you when it's good enough to go.

This all works best if you have a long term working relationship with your editor. Sometimes you become close friends in the process. Like any relationship, working with your editor requires (and repays) care and attention.

 

[AlexS]

Just a general question for all, but what do you need to see, or feel, or reach to know the story is done, done, done...

really, its done, and you are not coming back to it.

How do you know?

When it's accepted for publication

 

[ThinkerX]

Well, after mucking around with it most of the year, I did hit the 'Publish' button for 'Exiles: Pilgrimage' today. But I was making trivial changes to the manuscript right up to that point.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I think you are never, never, never ever done. The only way is to have an awesome editor who will look you in the eyes and say: "my friend, it is time to let go."

It's definitely different for me. I get to a point where I can't think of anything to make it better, only different, it's as good as I can make it at that time, and I'm completely sick and tired of working on it. So I have absolutely no problem with letting it go.

I've said it before, working with an editor is a partnership. You work together to make the book the best it can be. That means you have to be able to discuss the book and any changes in some depth. It starts with what the book is about, the themes, the story arcs and the character arcs. The discussions should be open and honest, which means you have to trust one another. You also have to know each other, what drives each of you and what you're looking for in a story. That way you get a good discussion and good results. Yes, you the author have the final word. But you the author should be listening to your editor. And your editor should tell you when it's good enough to go.

I think this is very much a difference between a trad-publisher editor and an indie-publish editor. The latter is much more a business transaction. I pay the editor to do a developmental edit or a copy edit or a manuscript critique. That's what I get back from them. Usually they'll add in a video call to discuss their findings, but then that's it. That's the end of the transaction. If I then require more of their time, it comes at a cost.

And I agree with pmmg that an editor I hire will never tell me it's good enough to publish. They'll hedge their bets a lot more then that. They will tell you they like it or what it's strengths are, but not that you should or shouldn't publish it. Also, unlike with a trad-editor, it's not their place to make that call, since they don't represent the publisher. That's you.

 

[Mad Swede]

I think this is very much a difference between a trad-publisher editor and an indie-publish editor. The latter is much more a business transaction. I pay the editor to do a developmental edit or a copy edit or a manuscript critique. That's what I get back from them. Usually they'll add in a video call to discuss their findings, but then that's it. That's the end of the transaction. If I then require more of their time, it comes at a cost.

Then you have set up the transaction wrong. Either you didn't ask for the right things or you didn't choose the right editor. As an example, how you can you get a good developmental edit if you aren't discussing your intent as author, story themes, story arcs etc with the editor? You need to ask for the right things. That may cost you more, but you'll also get more out of it.

If all you do is order a limited one-off piece of work, be that a developmental edit or a copy edit or whatever, then you will never reap the full benefit of your working relationship with an editor. You'll get exactly what you ask and pay for, and nothing more.

The relationship with your editor should be the same irrespective of publication route. You should be aiming for that long term relationship, and you should make that clear when you start looking for an editor. Freelance editors like a steady income too, and the best way of ensuring that is a long term working relationship with an author. Yes, this may well cost you more money up front if you're self-publishing. But in the long term your work will benefit.

And I agree with pmmg that an editor I hire will never tell me it's good enough to publish. They'll hedge their bets a lot more then that. They will tell you they like it or what it's strengths are, but not that you should or shouldn't publish it. Also, unlike with a trad-editor, it's not their place to make that call, since they don't represent the publisher. That's you.

I don't know what sort of publishing contracts you have seen, if any. I know what my contract says: I as the author have the final say on the changes made during the editing process. As my editor says, it's my book so it has to be that way. Yes, my publisher expects me to discuss the changes with my editor, in depth if necessary. I'm expected to listen to suggestions from my editor. Part of those discussions is coming to a conclusion about when the manuscript is ready to go.

As an aside, this is what has delayed my fourth novel. My editor and I have had some very interesting - and sometimes very funny - discussions about the theme and how that is being conveyed through the story and character arcs. The final version of the novel is better for those discussions, but it has taken a little longer than usual. My publishers managing director is very happy with the results (his gut instinct is that the book will be my best selling novel so far), so he doesn't mind the delay.