A scientific analysis of Dragons and other large fantastical flying reptiles

[Redfrogcrab]

Fair enough, but just my science brain do it's thing

This thread may be good resources for anyone who wants to make realistic dragons

 

[skip.knox]

>make realistic dragons
By which you mean "scientifically" realistic dragons, I presume. That's fine; my own preoccupation is making societies that are historically "realistic", which is to me both silly and satisfying.

Realism and fantasy are separate categories, so historical realism really is just silly. What I want as a fantasy writer is to have the reader believe the societies and people I create. The reader and I agree that elves are not real, but we both want them to be believable for the duration of the book (at least). That believability--the proper word is verisimilitude, which means semblance of truth--depends on a number of factors, not all of which are in the control of the author.

To return to dragons, whatever scientific explanations satisfy one person will seem unbelievable to another, and in two directions. In one, we have the professional biologist or engineer who says the explanation fails on this or that point. In an entirely different direction, we have the ordinary reader who *thinks* he knows this or that about physics or zoology, and who doubts the explanation on completely mistaken grounds. I encounter this often with historical matters, where people think this or that about the Middle Ages. They're quite mistaken, but that won't stop them from disliking my story because of their erroneous understandings. In SF it is common (more common in the early days) where the author has a character express doubt or ignorance precisely so the author can explain some scientific point to disabuse the reader of popular misconceptions about science. It's usually tedious to read.

Anyway, all that by way of saying have fun with making your dragons, just be aware that there will always be people who object to your logic. And, here on fantasy forums, there will always be those who prefer handwavium.

 

[LieutenantWolf34]

Could dragons who shoot lightning out of their mouths have some form of biology akin to electric eels?

 

[Redfrogcrab]

Could dragons who shoot lightning out of their mouths have some form of biology akin to electric eels?

Yeah, that's totally plausible

Shooting it out? Not likely, also said dragon would most likely have to be aquatic

 

[LieutenantWolf34]

Yeah, that's totally plausible

Shooting it out? Not likely, also said dragon would most likely have to be aquatic

That is certainly an interesting idea. I might actually use it.

 

[Redfrogcrab]

It's also totally likely that fire-breething dragons use an eletric organ to generate an arc to ignite flammable liquids/gasses aimed at unsuspecting villages/unprepared knights, like an organic spark plug and car battery

 

[Redfrogcrab]

It's also totally likely that fire-breething dragons use an eletric organ to generate an arc to ignite flammable liquids/gasses aimed at unsuspecting villages/unprepared knights, like an organic spark plug and car battery

An alternative idea is that dragons have two glands that produce and store 2 liquids, fuel and oxidizer, and when the liquids mix it instantly ignite

There's also my chemical burn theory, where dragons don't spew actual flames but a highly corrosive substance like stomach acid

 

[Redfrogcrab]

HYDRA (Look I know it's not a flying fantasy reptile but stay with me):
The head regeneration of a hydra has two reasonable scientific explanations:
-A: The heads of a hydra are all false heads (except the primary head), when one gets cut off (so long as it's not the primary head) two more pop out, stem cells going into rapid production, creating two new heads and necks that don't actually function like heads and are just decoys. All Hydras start with 3 heads, but which one is the actual head is random, so it's easier to just cut all of them at once. the decoy heads are there to confuse predators
-B: the brain is spread out amongst the heads (like in cephalopods), getting a head cut off is like a lobotomy, the cut head is quickly replaced and duplicated, however, the hydra would have reduced mental capacity, as growing a new head would introduce new neurons with none of the info lost from the old head being cut-off

 

[skip.knox]

>It's also totally likely that fire-breething dragons use an eletric organ
They would use an electric piano, surely. 1958 Rhodes, or maybe a newer Korg.

 

[Finchbearer]

I dont want to be near Insolent Lads dragons....

Dragons seem to be widely regarded as being able to spew much more than fire with today's fantasy crowd. So...to cover all the breath weapons, you'll have some splaining to work on.

From what has been said already....

I think it likely dragons have different skeletal structure, such that the wings and forearms are both connect to the central bonal structures. If the dragons held on to gas, it would not need to the source of their flight, but something which made flight easier to obtain. It would not be fragile, as their scales are like armor and very hard to penetrate (if at all).

Dragons may gain their breath attacks from chemical reactions within their blood or stomach acids. Maybe their stomach acid is closer to kerosene, than acid.

But Dragon are creatures of myth and legend. They would seem on the scale of demons and angels....kind of ancient first kind of foes. I think by nature of being connected beyond the world of mortals, they can be afforded some explanations which science would have trouble accepting.

Ultimately, isn't the fact that their dont seem to be any actual dragons kind of evidence that science would not support them?

And also....

All those words, Wyrms, and wyverns and drakes and dragons... I am sure they all historically relate back to the same creature, but I kind of like that they have separation now.

Wyrms were often also called serpents, but could be interchange terms, usually for a formless being, no legs or arms. Old English.

 

[Finchbearer]

Redfrogcrab did you watch Alien Worlds on Netflix - that was a blend of scientific conjecture and obviously a lot of creativity.

 

[LieutenantWolf34]

When you think about it a frost dragon would actually breathe fire instead of ice.

 

[Redfrogcrab]

Redfrogcrab did you watch Alien Worlds on Netflix - that was a blend of scientific conjecture and obviously a lot of creativity.

I have, was really cool

When you think about it a frost dragon would actually breathe fire instead of ice.

Oh yeah, definitely, ice breath is extremely unlikely to evolve, maybe spitting sub-zero brine solutions.

 

[LieutenantWolf34]

I have, was really cool

Oh yeah, definitely, ice breath is extremely unlikely to evolve, maybe spitting sub-zero brine solutions.

I mean most creatures in an icy tundra have some resistance or immunity to frost and ice-based attacks and an ice dragon would have evolved fire-breathing capabilities to make up for this.

 

[Redfrogcrab]

I mean most creatures in an icy tundra have some resistance or immunity to frost and ice-based attacks and an ice dragon would have evolved fire-breathing capabilities to make up for this.

And also that ice breath serves no purpose, with fire you get cooking, which makes food easier to digest and burns off unwanted bits like skin, fur, and feathers; with ice breath you could maybe get preservation of prey, but it's also harder for organisms to keep things cold.

Why? Because life likes things warm, not too hot, but warm, warmth lets biochemistry happen because heat speeds up chemical processes. The organs that would allow for cold breath would be a massive source of cooling in an already cold environment

 

[Finchbearer]

Why? Because life likes things warm, not too hot, but warm, warmth lets biochemistry happen because heat speeds up chemical processes. The organs that would allow for cold breath would be a massive source of cooling in an already cold environment

Except extremophiles - creatures that live in extreme environments such as thermophiles, halophiles, psychrophiles an alkaliphiles. These could serve purposes to heat or cool prey or the environment I suppose.

 

[Redfrogcrab]

Except extremophiles - creatures that live in extreme environments such as thermophiles, halophiles, psychrophiles an alkaliphiles. These could serve purposes to heat or cool prey or the environment I suppose.

They're the exception, not the rule
And most extremophiles are things like bacteria or worms, nothing as complex as a giant complex vertebrate animal

 

[pmmg]

Maybe the frost dragon spews water, which in the arctic temps, just flash freezes into ice. They dont need to cook. Once trapped, they just use you as an icy snack. Kind of like a Popsicle, only with more crunchy bits.

 

[Redfrogcrab]

Maybe the frost dragon spews water, which in the arctic temps, just flash freezes into ice. They dont need to cook. Once trapped, they just use you as an icy snack. Kind of like a Popsicle, only with more crunchy bits.

Yeah that could work, then again, you use a lot of water in the process

 

[Finchbearer]

They're the exception, not the rule
And most extremophiles are things like bacteria or worms, nothing as complex as a giant complex vertebrate animal

I would wager that those creatures would have been bigger in earlier time periods on earth, and if we’re talking fantasy beasts then all bets are off.