srcroft
Minstrel
Lmao! That sounds fun! My world has a 13 year old God--that's sorely out of context--but that still doesn't beat ice skating on the moon.
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Accepting the Unacceptable?
- Thread starter Skyrender
- Start date
Zero Angel
Auror
I have regularly read stories where they talked about having a gas bladder for their fire breath to help with this...it also enabled them to have a fire breath by chewing platinum.
Also, it makes sense they're super strong and able to generate the power to fly (at least to me). And who says they can't have hollow bones?
I am glad that "most agree they can glide" since eagles are able to pick up goats that are the same size as they are and glide with them.
And that's just regular science. There's the whole magick aspect of most fantasy dragons...
Mindfire
Istar
Inb4 Astner. 
No, but really this seems right up his alley.
No, but really this seems right up his alley.
Benjamin Clayborne
Auror
I think the idea is that the amount of lift that can be generated by wings only scales linearly with the surface area, but the mass of the creature increases as the cube of its size. Meaning that you end up with an effective upper limit on the size of flying creatures for a given gravity and atmospheric density. Same reason why you can't have ground-walking creatures above a certain size; bone strength increases with the square of the cross-section but mass increases with the cube.
Adding a "gas bladder" wouldn't help unless its contents were significantly lighter than air (e.g. helium), and that would occupy a lot of volume in the creature, making it relatively fragile. Dragons are not routinely fragile.
ScribeI'm not sure that they can be just like ours. IIRC, tidal force goes as (moon density)*(moon radius-cubed)/(moon distance-cubed). So to keep the tidal strength the same as on Earth, you have to keep the (moon radius)/(moon distance) ratio constant. But the size-in-the-sky goes as the arctan of (moon radius)/(moon distance), which we just said is constant.
But if you let the moon be less dense than our moon's, then you would have to move it closer or make it bigger to keep the tidal forces the same. I think that if you just said that it was slightly larger and brighter than our moon, no one would question it much. As long as it wasn't huge and insanely bright. Remember that the moon's orbital period would go as the square root of the moon distance cubed [sqrt(a^3)], so the length of the month would change.
To have two of these moons (appearing the same size in the sky), you would need one smaller and closer and another larger and farther. I don't know if that would actually be dynamically stable; I suspect that it depends on the configuration. The stable multi-moon systems in the solar system all, I think, have (medium- and large-)moon orbital inclinations less than one degree. Our moon's is 20-30 degrees (a more constant ~5 relative to Earth's orbital plane). [Edit: I just looked on Wikipedia. This is true for Jupiter, Saturn, and Uranus' non-Miranda moons. Neptune has Triton (retrograde and ~25 deg inlincation) and Nereid (~7 deg inclination, may be disrupted by Triton).]
Earth's moon keeps the Earth's rotation axis stable relative to the orbital plane, unlike Mars'. I don't know what happens if you have lighter moons (I don't know the giants' obliquity history).
I think that there are some difficulties here, but it's not novel-breaking. If you make these moons ~80% of the moon's density and adjust the sizes/distances accordingly, just put them at the planet's equator and calculate each moon's real and apparent orbital period.
On this, I suspect people will just nod and go along as long as it doesn't really stretch suspension of disbelief.
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I've paid scant attention to these discussions ("it's magic"), but I think people also talk about how big (both dimensions?) the animal's chest has to be to support the amount of muscle necessary for flight.
- Thread starter
- #27
Ireth
Myth Weaver
Zero Angel
Auror
I think the idea is that the amount of lift that can be generated by wings only scales linearly with the surface area, but the mass of the creature increases as the cube of its size. Meaning that you end up with an effective upper limit on the size of flying creatures for a given gravity and atmospheric density. Same reason why you can't have ground-walking creatures above a certain size; bone strength increases with the square of the cross-section but mass increases with the cube.
Adding a "gas bladder" wouldn't help unless its contents were significantly lighter than air (e.g. helium), and that would occupy a lot of volume in the creature, making it relatively fragile. Dragons are not routinely fragile.
Great points. Generally it's hydrogen. It doesn't have to become a blimp, just aide in lift. I'm not saying they can be behemoths or T-Rex size, but you can easily get largish dragons in a scientific/non-magick world. In fact, there are scientists that have worked out how this can be done.
Luckily, my world has magick, but still, I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility for a dragon to be able to fly naturally.
I do agree that they probably mostly glide like an albatross in a scientific world (unless they're small). Also, another great point about gravity and atmospheric pressure--adjust these and you have dragons working fine.
@Land creature point: just have the bone strength increase more
Ravana
Istar
On moons:
http://mythicscribes.com/forums/world-building/109-planet-multiple-moons.html
Also, for an "applied" example of multiple-moon use:
http://mythicscribes.com/forums/archipelago-archive/899-calendar-causing-event.html
http://mythicscribes.com/forums/archipelago-archive/979-tale-two-two-moons.html
The important parts of the discussion begins on page 2 of the first thread; the second thread is the outcome. And it was a hoot to write.
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Off-topic, but since it came up:
On whether or not dragons could fly (see post #18):
http://mythicscribes.com/forums/research/1462-how-big-mountains-2.html
The problem, as detailed there, is that mass increases as a function of volume (three dimensions), whereas wing surface is a function of area (two dimensions). And the bigger the wing, the more muscle required to manipulate it; those muscles adds more weight–and can't be conveniently made hollow, like bones–meaning the wings need to be bigger still to compensate for that, etc. You also need to strengthen the bones, hollow or not, as you go, or else the muscles will shatter them: have a look at bird anatomy to see what they require just to anchor their wing muscles. You rapidly reach a point where the wings are too large for the dragon to flap–or even to extend: imagine having arms several times the length of your body, and what it would take just to lift them.
Which is why we see the upward size limits we do of flying creatures in the real world–including those in the fossil record. They simply can't get much bigger. Not with terrestrial biology and conditions controlling them, at least. Similar reasons account for different modes of flight: only the smallest of flying creatures can actively hover, for example, because for anything larger, the musculature required rapidly overtakes the lift it can generate.
Gas bladders would be of marginal help at best. Consider how large blimps and airships have to be to carry a small gondola and propulsion engines… or how large a hot air balloon has to be to carry a tiny basket. The lift generated by a gas is based on the weight–and thus the volume–of the air it displaces: the difference in weight between the lifting gas and the same volume of air is the lift you get. Ergo, the smaller the volume of the gas bladder, the less lift. (Look up Archimedes' Principle if you need a detailed explanation.) Given what it takes to contain the most useful lighter-than-air gases, the dragon would probably be just as well off without it. (For that matter, if the gas were helium, you'd still need to invoke magic–to explain where the helium came from.)
http://mythicscribes.com/forums/world-building/109-planet-multiple-moons.html
Also, for an "applied" example of multiple-moon use:
http://mythicscribes.com/forums/archipelago-archive/899-calendar-causing-event.html
http://mythicscribes.com/forums/archipelago-archive/979-tale-two-two-moons.html
The important parts of the discussion begins on page 2 of the first thread; the second thread is the outcome. And it was a hoot to write.
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Off-topic, but since it came up:
On whether or not dragons could fly (see post #18):
http://mythicscribes.com/forums/research/1462-how-big-mountains-2.html
The problem, as detailed there, is that mass increases as a function of volume (three dimensions), whereas wing surface is a function of area (two dimensions). And the bigger the wing, the more muscle required to manipulate it; those muscles adds more weight–and can't be conveniently made hollow, like bones–meaning the wings need to be bigger still to compensate for that, etc. You also need to strengthen the bones, hollow or not, as you go, or else the muscles will shatter them: have a look at bird anatomy to see what they require just to anchor their wing muscles. You rapidly reach a point where the wings are too large for the dragon to flap–or even to extend: imagine having arms several times the length of your body, and what it would take just to lift them.
Which is why we see the upward size limits we do of flying creatures in the real world–including those in the fossil record. They simply can't get much bigger. Not with terrestrial biology and conditions controlling them, at least. Similar reasons account for different modes of flight: only the smallest of flying creatures can actively hover, for example, because for anything larger, the musculature required rapidly overtakes the lift it can generate.
Gas bladders would be of marginal help at best. Consider how large blimps and airships have to be to carry a small gondola and propulsion engines… or how large a hot air balloon has to be to carry a tiny basket. The lift generated by a gas is based on the weight–and thus the volume–of the air it displaces: the difference in weight between the lifting gas and the same volume of air is the lift you get. Ergo, the smaller the volume of the gas bladder, the less lift. (Look up Archimedes' Principle if you need a detailed explanation.) Given what it takes to contain the most useful lighter-than-air gases, the dragon would probably be just as well off without it. (For that matter, if the gas were helium, you'd still need to invoke magic–to explain where the helium came from.)
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srcroft
Minstrel
Trust me I want dragons to fly. I'm sure theories go both ways, even if science stacks against it. The one issue is that there are no four legged creatures with wings. The idea of bat wings on dragons started in Africa when people took lizards and sewed bat wings on them and sold them as baby dragons. Biblically in 'Jo'b Dragon's did exist and exude fire, historically there are accounts, most however, don't include wings. Those were added later. The Chinese version of flying dragons also don't have wings but did fly. Some believe that there used to be a canopy of water over the earth and the swirls of water looked like Chinese dragons.
Here's what I say. To me, regardless of science, Dragon's will always have big fat bat wings in my mind, and breath fire, and probably talk --
Here's what I say. To me, regardless of science, Dragon's will always have big fat bat wings in my mind, and breath fire, and probably talk
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mbartelsm
Troubadour
I once thought of a dragon that has helium/hydrogen cells on it's wings, since this gives volume to the wings it can create more lift when moving forward (at the cost of a little speed and vulnerable wings, think pterosaur), it would also make its wings substantially lighter and easier to raise, and as consequence of this, the body would also be lighter since it would not need to lift it's own wings (which are the ones that grow exponentially with size along with chest muscles).
Of course is only a theory, and I have in no way done research on it, I just want dragons to be big and strong enough to carry a man or two and perhaps some light armor.
Also, the fire trowing mechanic could work by having a conduct on the mouth (like where serpents hide their tongues) from where it launches a ball of specially flammable fat and a set of electricity generating organs (manta rays, eels) to set it on fire, the supply would be very limited, much like a serpent's poison.
Of course is only a theory, and I have in no way done research on it, I just want dragons to be big and strong enough to carry a man or two and perhaps some light armor.
Also, the fire trowing mechanic could work by having a conduct on the mouth (like where serpents hide their tongues) from where it launches a ball of specially flammable fat and a set of electricity generating organs (manta rays, eels) to set it on fire, the supply would be very limited, much like a serpent's poison.
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srcroft
Minstrel
It's quite possible that a dragon could have argon or a heavy gas in its hollow bones. The pressure pushing out if it is the same as the air pressure pushing in--it should strengthen the bone. OR maybe they're bones are made of something light and strong like a spider web material--thats plausible. Spider webs are stronger then steel. So imagine if the skin and cartilage are all that material and bam, scales on top.
MaesterDragons can fly- they are dragons. Are you going to go debate the laws of gravity with one?
My friend is writing a fantasy book and has flying mythical creatures, she suddenly realised she didn't know how far etc. I said just as far as you need them too. It's a fantasy. I mean you don't get gryphons, dragons or unicorns in reality. In your world they do what you say they do. Maybe it is magic, maybe they just know something we don't:0
Someone was saying about the movies and suspension of disbelief- well I happily watched Stardust and then Star wars ( IV- V1) and didnt care there aren't stars who are people, small green guys who talk in riddles, giant planet squishing space ships but when I watched James Bond it is like hmm really?
If you know it is not the "Real World" you can hopefully get away with pretty much anything.
My friend is writing a fantasy book and has flying mythical creatures, she suddenly realised she didn't know how far etc. I said just as far as you need them too. It's a fantasy. I mean you don't get gryphons, dragons or unicorns in reality. In your world they do what you say they do. Maybe it is magic, maybe they just know something we don't:0
Someone was saying about the movies and suspension of disbelief- well I happily watched Stardust and then Star wars ( IV- V1) and didnt care there aren't stars who are people, small green guys who talk in riddles, giant planet squishing space ships but when I watched James Bond it is like hmm really?
If you know it is not the "Real World" you can hopefully get away with pretty much anything.