• Welcome to the Fantasy Writing Forums. Register Now to join us!

Armor through ages. As as anything.

Ruby

Auror
Hi,

Although it's a Fantasy, I still need to know what's feasible and whether a reader would believe it.

For example, I recently wrote a story where a knight in armour flew on the back of an eagle and landed, by mistake, on top of a mountain, in order to take part in a quest. I needed to find out how a knight in full armour would be be able to climb down a mountain.

Admittedly, this was comedic writing, but I asked questions here. The solution was to let him swing on a rope and avoid a dragon emerging from a cave below, before walking down a mountain pass.
 

Bortasz

Troubadour
I have request. Does any moderator can Put this in to my first Posts? This is another Mythbusting from me, and I prefer to keep them in one place. This Time I take on workshop Chain Mailes.

The most early mention of Chainmail comes from 500 BC when Celt start using it.
The best picture of Celtic chainmail I was able to find was this:
http://media.indiedb.com/images/articles/1/29/28115/auto/celtic_hauberk.JPG
Then Roman adopted it and create Lorica Hamata:
http://ep.yimg.com/ay/yhst-42417777999735/lorica-hamata-2.gif
The Viking era chainmail was T-shirt without extra protection on shoulders that Lorica Hamata have.
http://www.theknightshop.co.uk/catalog/images/SNC113.1.jpg
In age of crusade Chainmailget even bigger.
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m67y717imj1qk1uvh.jpg
Pleas notice the cut. Since this chainmail was use by someone on the horse back it have to be longer, little below the knee. To be able to sit in the saddle that cut was needed.
The legs have mail on its own.
http://www.toyanxietypixs.com/images/products/ignite/waltervongeroldseck/chainmaillegs.jpg
Chainmail gloves
https://www.google.pl/search?newwin...3.3.0....0...1c.1.53.img..3.3.512.micaIXkhruc
and Chainmail Coif
https://www.google.pl/search?newwin...HgCg&ved=0CB0QvwUoAA&dpr=1.2&biw=1400&bih=761
Pleas notice that Chainmail Coif should not be use as a substitute of Helmet. Helmet must be extra added. The chainmail coif was mostly to protect neck and shoulders.

Even after Plates show up on the battlefield the chainmail was part of armor since it is flexible it was covering moving parts
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o4FKnnXmPoA/S7XtvkKrC8I/AAAAAAAAIDE/hEc-u0OYWq4/s1600/Leeds2009+234a.jpg
Chainmail Probably is THE metal armour. It was use to ad least 1400 so it give almost 2 000 years of service.
When you imagine Crusader he will be in full Chainmail Body Armour
http://media-cache-cd0.pinimg.com/236x/27/6e/e4/276ee47143c7f42428758d2c88f77e60.jpg

Now what you probably did not know that there are Different patterns for Chain mails.
http://s1.hubimg.com/u/3588130_f520.jpg
The most widespread is first that you see 1 in 4. It require the lowest amount of resources. That make him the lightest of all patterns. The total of three facts(weight, little resource, little work) are the most important reason behind it popularity.
The 1 in 8 is also called the Kings Mail. It practically double the mass of Chainmail. But you can see for yourself how thick is the tangle from this mail. It is twice as heavy as 1 in 4.
This were European patterns.
And this are Japanese:
http://i.imgur.com/OK9E1jo.jpg
http://jewellerymaker.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/hana-gusari-hex.gif
Like you see there are differences.

The second think that many people don't know about Chainmails is that ALL rings are either Welded or Riveted
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img855/9541/12thcenturyreproback.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RviWEXxxN1k/Ugb928Mv-VI/AAAAAAAAAGs/FePxepvVJMg/s1600/weldchain.JPG
And this is crucial to the strengthens of Chain mail. Every time you watch somebody destroying a Chain mail is almost certain that this is not Riveted or Welded Mail.

Here I stop for the moment. One of my friend ask me does it is possible that there were created cheap Chain mails were rings were not riveted/welded?
No. This is impossible.
Pleas look ad this. 8 in 1 not welded or riveted. How easily is to destroy this amour. Nobody with there right mind will buy this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxhbSIGDf8s
Also the welding/riveting is not the most hard work of assembling the chainmail.

Here you can clearly see that rings are not whole.
http://fc02.deviantart.net/images/i/2003/42/8/0/Chain_mail.jpg
And here you can see how more stronger are Riveted mail
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmHdD_ngUps&index=5&list=WL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_yTQUvJRf0&index=6&list=WL
And here they try to pierce through the Riveted chainmail with a sword. Pleas notice how powerful are this hits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl-ec6Ub7FM

Arrow have hard time to get through this. But the fact that it will not penetrate Armour don't means that you are protected.
This:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi5pdd7xHNI
Is completely nonsense.
The share blunt power will smash his ribs, turn his lungs and heart to mush. And it is a reason why people Prefer Plate Armours over the mails.
Plate spread force of impact on bigger surface with allow gambeson to amortize bigger chunk of energy. Mail is not very good add it because it is flexible. The damage you take in mail is transfer to you body. It can brake you bones, cause internal bleeding, collapse a lung.
Pleas visit hear to see more about Blunt Trauma:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blunt_trauma

Also one another reason for wide spread of Chainmails. It require the least amount of metalworking skills with iron. You simple must create the wire, and fold it in to springs. Than goes the cutting springs in to ring.
How make a Rings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WcaAdL41m8
How make Riveted Rings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjwsalUx7UM
Some points about Chainmails
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RssIl2v0C1k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lahyhBeBsys

Extra info for curious one:
http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/armour/mail/mail.html
 

WPT

Acolyte
I was thinking the same way as I was reading this. To get some ideas of superior materials that might have to be produced magically, look at modern materials produced with modern technology. In a fantasy world, don't worry about how the material was made, just be sure a mage was involved in the process to let you do a bit of hand-waving without explaining. Or avoid discussing fabrication altogether. Knights didn't understand the metallurgy of their armor, and neither do Abrams tank drivers understand, or know, the process for making the armor on their tanks. They just drive them. A little research on materials and a light introduction to material properties might make it easier to imagine the properties of magical, or semi-magical armor.
 

Bortasz

Troubadour
I was thinking the same way as I was reading this. To get some ideas of superior materials that might have to be produced magically, look at modern materials produced with modern technology. In a fantasy world, don't worry about how the material was made, just be sure a mage was involved in the process to let you do a bit of hand-waving without explaining. Or avoid discussing fabrication altogether. Knights didn't understand the metallurgy of their armor, and neither do Abrams tank drivers understand, or know, the process for making the armor on their tanks. They just drive them. A little research on materials and a light introduction to material properties might make it easier to imagine the properties of magical, or semi-magical armor.

I don't think that knowing properties of material is needed. And I do not have knowledge to actually do this.

But knowing on what principles armour works is something that can help with creating magic armour. This I can write. Interest?
 

TheokinsJ

Troubadour
Out of Curiosity, how effective are arrows against plate armour- would arrows penetrate deep enough through the plate and gambeson to cause serious injury? I know war bows are pretty powerful, but will the arrows deflect of the armour or will they penetrate?
 

Bortasz

Troubadour
Out of Curiosity, how effective are arrows against plate armour- would arrows penetrate deep enough through the plate and gambeson to cause serious injury? I know war bows are pretty powerful, but will the arrows deflect of the armour or will they penetrate?

There is chance for penetration of plate. BUT this don't mean that person that wore plate will have life threatening injuries.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk

Here is full episode:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqoh0okQ6Ho

If I remember correctly Crossbow have only 40 meter range to penetrate full plate armour. After this they lose to much energy to archive penetration. So the Longbow even powerful ones are not as dangerous as you may think.

On the other hand pleas remember that if arrows hit multiple times, they may get through. And for 100% they will harm you.
Longbow have fire rate of 8 arrows per minute.
Agincourt have minimum 5 000 archers. let's assume that you are hit by 5 arrows every volley.
After just 1 minute you will be hit by 40 arrows. From total of 20 000 shot.
After 5 minute it will be 200. From total of 100 000 shot.
France have MAXIMUM 36 000 people total on the battlefield. That give 3 arrows per person.
Assuming that every archer have 60 arrows they will need 7 minute to shot them all, and assuming the lowest number of 5 000 on the battlefield give us total of 300 000 Arrows shot. This is almost 10 arrows per person assuming the largest number of French.
And every bruise add up to you exhaustion. And for the end score doesn't matter if you are dead, or simple to tired to move.
Also you get closer and closer to archers position with means that every shot is more and more powerful.

On the final note. Horses for the most part of history are not armoured. So killing you horse when you gallop add full speed. Some broken necks, ribs, smashed people by horses that fall on them. Generally large number of people die just because of this.

So in summary in battle Longbow archers use quantity in terms how many time they shoot you to archive disabling blow (Incapacitate for further fights, regardless if this means death, exhausted, or unconscious. )

But they actually have little chance to cause you injury in terms that they will penetrate you plate armour and reach any vital organs.

Does this fully answer you question?
 
Shields were blazoned with heraldic devices in brilliant colours that would not be generally available for cloth dyes by enamelling - which is basically coloured glass fused to the metal, and probably required fairly regular replacement (at the least when hammering out dents). I've never seen it but at least ceremonial armour could have used the same technique. I have seen some lovely inlay work with brass, silver and gold, so you could do gold plated armour for over-important knights. 'Course, in battle it'd get scratched and rust faster, but at processions and troop inspections, very impressive.

I notice we've concentrated on steel armour, not the earlier bronze version, slightly lighter and a lot less corrodable.

So, to question. That lovely full articulated armour, renaissance, so there were already firearms. How did that hold together? Could you ride breast and back, and maybe mail under it, and save the steel shoulder pads, trousers and sleeves for actual combat, or is it all or nothing? And do you, when questing, have a separate pack horse for your armour and accessories? Wearing it all all the time doesn't seem all that practical.

J'aimais bien les films, mais ils auraient pu donner une commentaire sur ce qu'on était en train de voire :)
 
Last edited:

Bortasz

Troubadour
Shields were blazoned with heraldic devices in brilliant colours that would not be generally available for cloth dyes by enamelling - which is basically coloured glass fused to the metal, and probably required fairly regular replacement (at the least when hammering out dents). I've never seen it but at least ceremonial armour could have used the same technique. I have seen some lovely inlay work with brass, silver and gold, so you could do gold plated armour for over-important knights. 'Course, in battle it'd get scratched and rust faster, but at processions and troop inspections, very impressive.

I notice we've concentrated on steel armour, not the earlier bronze version, slightly lighter and a lot less corrodable.

So, to question. That lovely full articulated armour, renaissance, so there were already firearms. How did that hold together? Could you ride breast and back, and maybe mail under it, and save the steel shoulder pads, trousers and sleeves for actual combat, or is it all or nothing? And do you, when questing, have a separate pack horse for your armour and accessories? Wearing it all all the time doesn't seem all that practical.

J'aimais bien les films, mais ils auraient pu donner une commentaire sur ce qu'on était en train de voire :)

This require from doing little research. Give me some time.

Also you question are:
1. Armour in Renaissance versus muskets of that period. XV-XVI century.
2. Could you wore:
http://www.swordsandarmor.com/images/AB1018_Gothic_Breastplate_Harness.jpg
403 Forbidden
http://www.fantasy-armor.com/images/pauldrons/AE1503.jpg
Together?

And what you mean by Questing?

I do not speak french. But Google Translate tell me that you like movie :p
 

Guy

Inkling
I notice we've concentrated on steel armour, not the earlier bronze version, slightly lighter and a lot less corrodable.
Bronze is heavier than steel and softer, easier to penetrate.
So, to question. That lovely full articulated armour, renaissance, so there were already firearms. How did that hold together? Could you ride breast and back, and maybe mail under it, and save the steel shoulder pads, trousers and sleeves for actual combat,
Sure, if you wanted to.
And do you, when questing, have a separate pack horse for your armour and accessories? Wearing it all all the time doesn't seem all that practical.
Ideally, a knight had three horse - one for war, one for general riding, and one pack animal. While armor wasn't as heavy as many people think, it was a pain to wear for a long time.
 

Guy

Inkling
Out of Curiosity, how effective are arrows against plate armour- would arrows penetrate deep enough through the plate and gambeson to cause serious injury? I know war bows are pretty powerful, but will the arrows deflect of the armour or will they penetrate?
It depends on a number of things. One very important thing to keep in mind is that the arms and armor of the period were hand crafted, so there was a huge variation in quality. It wasn't like today where one assembly line-made M-4 will shoot pretty much like another. So there was a significant difference in performance of bows. did the arrows have iron or steel heads? Was the plate armor made of iron or steel? Steel plate wasn't around until the fifteenth century, and making a huge piece of iron, like a breastplate, into steel was a hit or miss process. Consequently, part of a breast plate might be high quality steel, but another area would be softer steel or iron. If a steel tipped arrow from a powerful bow hit a softer spot on the breastplate, it might go through. Armor varied in thickness - the front of a breastplate was thicker than the sides. The helmet visors were thinner, as well, and there are accounts of archers deliberately aiming for the visors for this very reason. Armor tends to be curved for two reasons - to conform to the shape of the human body and curved surfaces are more likely to deflect a blow than a flat surface, so a head-on shot to a breastplate would likely skim off because a lot of breastplates either came to a point or had a crest running down them. And full plate armor was expensive, especially if it was steel. As a result, most people didn't have it.
 
One thing about a battle like Agincourt: you didn't have to kill all the knights, just the first ranks of them, or their horses. Then all the rest slam into the bodies in front, plus they're charging through mud that's been further churned up by hooves. And the archers had defensive stakes set up too.
 

Jabrosky

Banned
Does anyone have any links/information on non-metallic armors?
I was going to say, tough animal hides might come in handy as armor for any culture that coexists with big scary monsters.

Such armor might resemble the suits of crocodile armor that have been recovered from Roman-era Egypt, such as this:

an20721_l.jpg
 

Bortasz

Troubadour
Shields were blazoned with heraldic devices in brilliant colours that would not be generally available for cloth dyes by enamelling - which is basically coloured glass fused to the metal, and probably required fairly regular replacement (at the least when hammering out dents). I've never seen it but at least ceremonial armour could have used the same technique. I have seen some lovely inlay work with brass, silver and gold, so you could do gold plated armour for over-important knights. 'Course, in battle it'd get scratched and rust faster, but at processions and troop inspections, very impressive.

I notice we've concentrated on steel armour, not the earlier bronze version, slightly lighter and a lot less corrodable.

So, to question. That lovely full articulated armour, renaissance, so there were already firearms. How did that hold together? Could you ride breast and back, and maybe mail under it, and save the steel shoulder pads, trousers and sleeves for actual combat, or is it all or nothing? And do you, when questing, have a separate pack horse for your armour and accessories? Wearing it all all the time doesn't seem all that practical.

J'aimais bien les films, mais ils auraient pu donner une commentaire sur ce qu'on était en train de voire :)

Okey after doing some research.
Armour in renaissance was bullet proof. According to my research
a 1.9mm wrought iron plate requires 900J from a steel ball or 1500J from a lead ball to defeat it. Good quality steel can resist about double this energy.

So yes the Armour in renaissance was bullet proof. But. This not mean that knights could advance under fire from muskets like a tank.
Blunt trauma from that kind of hit will be transfer to there body and could cause serious injuries.
After several hits the chance of penetration was increasing.

SCHOLA FORUM • View topic - Muskets vs. cuirass
Is the armor worn by knights bulletproof

On the terms of number of horses.
The 3 horses that Guy mention is absolute minimum if you go to war.
You must have:
Primary war horse.
Horse that carry you equipment. If not two horses that carry you equipment.
Minimum 1 extra war horse. But this can go up to even 4. Horses have greater chance of dying in the battle than the rider.
I know that loses in Horses could easily go up to 60% but loses in humans barely go above 10% and they were winning side.

About using all this armours together. Yes you can but.
It is completely impractical. It increase the weigh without giving you any true extra protection. If you want extra protection and don't worry about extra weight that simple increase the thickness of breastplate.
After plate armour was cheap enough people start using male only on moving parts. But in time even dhows parts were removed and replace with plate.
 

Bortasz

Troubadour
Does anyone have any links/information on non-metallic armors?

What exactly do you wish to know? Topic is wide.
General there is reason why all civilisation prefer go with metal armour over leather.

I was going to say, tough animal hides might come in handy as armor for any culture that coexists with big scary monsters.

Such armor might resemble the suits of crocodile armor that have been recovered from Roman-era Egypt, such as this:

an20721_l.jpg

If you think of making leather armour from fantasy monster than it can have all properties you wish it have.
 

Guy

Inkling
Leather armor is pretty effective, but it's organic, so it doesn't withstand the ravages of time very well. Consequently, there is very little archeological evidence.Padded fabric armor was also effective and common.
 

TheokinsJ

Troubadour
I suppose this is a historical question about armour- perhaps a bit too specific but I'll see how it goes- just wondering if you knew anything about the Vikings and what kind of armour they wore? I know Vikings wore mail, but I'd like to know what the average man wore- mail was ridiculously expensive, so what was a cheaper alternative?
 

Bortasz

Troubadour
I suppose this is a historical question about armour- perhaps a bit too specific but I'll see how it goes- just wondering if you knew anything about the Vikings and what kind of armour they wore? I know Vikings wore mail, but I'd like to know what the average man wore- mail was ridiculously expensive, so what was a cheaper alternative?

Chainmail is the expensive one.
Rest use Gambesons and Leather.
Lamellar armour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Viking Age arms and armour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Top