Beware of the word count!

[John M]

Hi guys,

So I recently finished writing my novel and sent it off to a freelance editor for an editorial assessment. She returned the manuscript with a 15 page report filled with lots of praise and also a good amount of helpful constructive criticism. All in all I was very happy with the job she had done. One thing I was not that happy about was a fact she pointed out to me. If your goal is to be traditionally published your manuscript can not be longer than 120K words (less if its not SFF).

This was something that caught me off guard. I hadn't done my homework it seems. Apparently there is a rule in the industry that novels above 120K words, especially for debut authors, are no-gos. It has to do with cost of printing long books vs the risk of not selling well. Longer books are just financially a lot more risky. If you are an established author like George R R Martin and have proven you can sell books, its a totally different matter. Then your books can be as long as you wish. But for debuts, you really need to stick to less than 120K to be taken seriously.

My novel is at 160K and I now have big job to do cutting it down to 120K or less. I just wanted to bring this aspect of traditional publishing to your attention in case you are like me and have not thought about word count much at all. Longer is not always better.

 

[Finchbearer]

I’m no expert but as far as I’ve read, fantasy is the one genre where you can typically go a little further with the word count, particularly if your book will be part of a series. Hopefully you’ll get to keep those extra words.

 

[Devor]

Yes, that's generally the advice people give. And as mentioned, 120k for fantasy is already more than other genres get.

People will argue that it's another reason to self-publish. But I personally think most debut novels are probably improved by a tighter word count.

 

[pmmg]

Yeah. 120 is already up from the average word count. 80-90k is more typical.

But… its your risk if you self publish.

Who was the editor? I sure didn't get a 15 page report.

 

[John M]

Yes, that's generally the advice people give. And as mentioned, 120k for fantasy is already more than other genres get.

People will argue that it's another reason to self-publish. But I personally think most debut novels are probably improved by a tighter word count.

Before I started editing down my novel I would probably disagree with you, but now that I have started, and am down 15k words, I have totally changed my mind. There is SO much excessive stuff I can cut out lol.

 

[John M]

Yeah. 120 is already up from the average word count. 80-90k is more typical.

But… its your risk if you self publish.

Who was the editor? I sure didn't get a 15 page report.

Her name is Claire Baldwain located in London. Found her on Reedsy. I am really happy with her. The report was so detailed and thorough. She really knows her stuff and has many years of experience working with professional authors. She isn’t cheap though, but you get quality for your pennies.

 

[Prince of Spires]

There is no rule that states novels can't be over 120k words. It is however a big guideline.

Cost is definitely a reason. The 40k words which your novel is over 120k words is something like 160 pages. It takes time and effort (and thus money) to get those into publishing ready shape. Print cost is a factor, though since a lot of sales are ebooks these days (especially for debut authors), it matters a lot less than you'd think.

However, I personally think the main reason it's a guideline is more about quality than cost. If you wrote the next game of thrones, then most publishers would be happy to pick it up, even if it's over 120k words. However, for many beginning writers a big word count signifies that the novel isn't focused enough, and that a lot can (and should) be cut before it's in shape. You seem to partially have discovered this as well, since you've already cut 15k words.

Of course, if you decide to go the self-publishing route, then no one cares about your word count, other than your editor (since it determines the size of the check she can write you), and your cover designer (since it determines the size of the book's spine).

 

[Devor]

They used to say that big books intimidate readers, and they take up extra space on a bookshelf. So for the buyer at a bookstore, they can stock one big book that probably won't sell or two shorter ones that probably will.

Of course, longer books have gotten far less intimidating for readers, which started with Harry Potter. And books sell online, where shelf space doesn't matter anymore. But some of that reasoning still applies to a debut author. Other things equal, longer books take more editing, should list at a higher price, and are less likely to be picked up as an impulse buy.

 

[Moore_Attuned_Ed]

I agree with Prince of Spires and the others here. Fantasy tends to be longer, of course, but coming in at a huge word count when you're a debut author would make publishers wary about the quality. That, and it's a big ask for readers to commit themselves to a huge novel from an author they haven't read before (of course, some won't mind and love discovering new authors, despite the book's length, but that's not the case for most!).

Well done on cutting down 15K words!

 

[Finchbearer]

It does sound that seeing as you’ve been able to cut 15K words and not miss them then the editor is bob on in their advice. Bet your wondering what else to cut now!

 

[John M]

It does sound that seeing as you’ve been able to cut 15K words and not miss them then the editor is bob on in their advice. Bet your wondering what else to cut now!

Haha she was indeed. This is why its so good to get professionals to look at your writing, they can tell you what needs fixing and how to fix it. I have made a plan so Im still good for cutting down another 20k words. The last five will be difficult though, I dont know where Im going to take them from. Its been easy enough so far apart from one character that I really liked and loved the world building around. But he was mostly just a random guy who didnt provide anything to the main plot, SO OFF WITH HIS HEAD! MOHAHAHA! I feel like you have to find your inner cut-throat evil guy when cutting down a novel. It makes the process less emotionally damaging haha.

 

[Mad Swede]

Yes, my editor has said that the sweet spot for debut novels is somewhere in the range 80k - 90k words. Any more than that and she says there are likely to be issues with pacing and structure which are often enough to put off agents and publishers. My debut novel was just over 94k words when it was picked up for publication in Swedish, and the English version (not yet published) comes in at just over 95k words.

 

[John M]

Yes, my editor has said that the sweet spot for debut novels is somewhere in the range 80k - 90k words. Any more than that and she says there are likely to be issues with pacing and structure which are often enough to put off agents and publishers. My debut novel was just over 94k words when it was picked up for publication in Swedish, and the English version (not yet published) comes in at just over 95k words.

Well done for getting published, and a translation too! Pretty awesome. The more I read about the traditional publishing industry the more I realise how difficult it is to get published. Its such tough competition. Book agents gets hundreds of submissions a month. I recon I will start querying for an agent early next year when I am done with my revisions, not looking forward to all the rejections that are bound to hit me :-( But I still got to give it a go!

 

[Mad Swede]

Well done for getting published, and a translation too! Pretty awesome. The more I read about the traditional publishing industry the more I realise how difficult it is to get published. Its such tough competition. Book agents gets hundreds of submissions a month. I recon I will start querying for an agent early next year when I am done with my revisions, not looking forward to all the rejections that are bound to hit me :-( But I still got to give it a go!

Good luck with the search for a publisher. It doesn't seem to be very easy in the English language market.

My second and third published novels came in at just under 97k words and just over 96k words respectively. The fourth one (being written now) looks like coming in at about 96k words, possibly a little under. The short story collection is about 80k words in total, but the 9 stories themselves vary greatly in length. My editor reckons those numbers are about right given my writing style, although some of the critics feel that my writing is sometimes a little terse.

 

[John M]

Good luck with the search for a publisher. It doesn't seem to be very easy in the English language market.

My second and third published novels came in at just under 97k words and just over 96k words respectively. The fourth one (being written now) looks like coming in at about 96k words, possibly a little under. The short story collection is about 80k words in total, but the 9 stories themselves vary greatly in length. My editor reckons those numbers are about right given my writing style, although some of the critics feel that my writing is sometimes a little terse.

Ah cool, you`re an experienced author then with several publications. Noted for when I´m in need of writing and publishing advise hehe Im actually Norwegian myself (hi neighbour), but I find the Norwegian language so hard to write in for some reason, I just cant make it work. So I write in English and will give it a go in the English market.

Critics will be critics. You cant please everybody, if you have managed to get three novels published you must be doing something right. Reading is so subjective isn`t it. I did a round of beta readings for my novel a while ago and some betas said it was too descriptive and some said it wasn't descriptive enough. Some wanted more emotions, some thought there was enough. Some liked my main character and some didn't. You just have to find your style and voice and take the readers you can get I suppose hehe.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

The suggested limitation for epic fantasy is kind of silly, but at the same time, I get it. Most stuff that long gets bogged down with a lot of excess words. Sadly, for Eve of Snows, my editor and I ADDED words to put it over 150k after I got it down to 130k by removing a POV that I rewrote for book 2.

Maybe when I write something other than an epic I'll be able to stay under 120k.

 

[Mad Swede]

Ah cool, you`re an experienced author then with several publications. Noted for when I´m in need of writing and publishing advise hehe Im actually Norwegian myself (hi neighbour), but I find the Norwegian language so hard to write in for some reason, I just cant make it work. So I write in English and will give it a go in the English market.

De allra flesta svenska förlagen tar böcker på norska eller danska, det är nog värt din tid att söka dit. Du slipper nämligen hitta en agentur först. Du kan ju alltid pröva de stora förlagen (typ Bonniers) men de mindre brukar vara snabbar i sina svar och mer öppna för nya författare.

Critics will be critics. You cant please everybody, if you have managed to get three novels published you must be doing something right. Reading is so subjective isn`t it. I did a round of beta readings for my novel a while ago and some betas said it was too descriptive and some said it wasn't descriptive enough. Some wanted more emotions, some thought there was enough. Some liked my main character and some didn't. You just have to find your style and voice and take the readers you can get I suppose hehe.

Sparsmakad var ordet dem använde...

 

[John M]

De allra flesta svenska förlagen tar böcker på norska eller danska, det är nog värt din tid att söka dit. Du slipper nämligen hitta en agentur först. Du kan ju alltid pröva de stora förlagen (typ Bonniers) men de mindre brukar vara snabbar i sina svar och mer öppna för nya författare.


Sparsmakad var ordet dem använde...

Tror du skandinaviske forlag vurderer bøker på engelsk også? Jeg har jo skrevet hele min bok på engelsk og har ikke så lyst til å oversette den. Prøver å finne ut av det på nett men finner ingen klare svar, takk for tips

 

[Mad Swede]

Tror du skandinaviske forlag vurderer bøker på engelsk også? Jeg har jo skrevet hele min bok på engelsk og har ikke så lyst til å oversette den. Prøver å finne ut av det på nett men finner ingen klare svar, takk for tips

Nej, icke. Det är dem väldigt tydliga med. Översättning till det egna språket är tufft, men du kan pröva att använda Babylon mjukvaran. Den har jag använt i tjänsten och den fungerar bra, men det gäller att korrekturläsa noga eftersom den ibland väljer ord som är fel i just den kontexten. Den klarar heller inte uttryck så som "getting a word in edegways" ("att få en syl i vädret", som man säger på svenska).