Characteristics of different Indo-European groups

[Johnny Cosmo]

In the same way that we can point out obvious differences in the culture, society, structure, and language of the Norse, Greeks, and Celts, what distinguishable features do the other groups and mythologies from the others that rose from the Proto-Indo-Europeans? I'm particularly interested in learning about the Slavs at the moment. They seem to have a strange, magical feel from the art and images I've seen on the Wikipedia page.

 

[mythique890]

Don't to forget the "Indo-" part. Iran/Persia and India have amazingly rich mythological soil, much underutilized by Western storytellers IMO.

 

[Johnny Cosmo]

Yeah, I agree. The only thing is, the main continent in my story echoes the different parts of Europe through the middle ages, and there's a land mass I want to expand that is in a similar(ish) place to where Russia is. I hope to expand further at a later point, though I do have ideas for other cultures that cover the 'indo' part already.

 

[Ravana]

Well, part of an answer is that the mythologies are all remarkably similar, not different: that was one of the clues that led to the recognition of Indo-Europeans as a unified cultural group.

That having been said... the similarities aren't always obvious, as it's the differences we tend to focus on. Many, if not most, of those differences arise from contact with other (non-IE) cultures--which is why, for instance, the Mediterranean IE groups appear to differ from some of the others: they absorbed vast amounts from the Mesopotamian cultures. In the case of the Slavs, the main external influence would be the Finno-Ugric group (or Uralic group, depending on who you're talking to: I learned it the first way, though such classifications change regularly within linguistics). Look at the mythologies of Finland and the Baltic states, and to a lesser extent the smaller cultures that have been pushed to the margins across the northern reaches of what is today Russia (collectively, the Samoyed people, though this isn't their name for themselves). You'll find that much of what makes the Slavic (especially Russian) legends unique is reflected there. (Hungary is also part of the Finno-Ugric group, though surviving Magyar folklore is rather heavily influenced by having been isolated and surrounded by IE groups for a millennium. Still, it's noticeably different from its neighbors.) To a lesser extent, some Scandinavian influences can be noted, as a result of contact along the Baltic and as a result of the trade routes they developed along the major rivers (the name "Russia" itself arose from this source: the Rus were Scandinavians, not Slavs.) Interestingly, having been overrun and ruled by Mongols for a couple centuries seems to have left little impact on Russian lore... probably because by the time this happened, the area was almost totally Christianized anyway, and borrowing other people's myths was largely a no-no at that point.

I've noticed some similarities between Russian and Persian lore as well--both are, of course, IE, but there are some things they share that don't appear to have remained as strong elsewhere. Not so much in the "mythologies" (the parts dealing with divinities), but the hero tales. For examples, find a copy of the Shahnameh by Ferdowsi, a repository of Persian folktales assembled into a single narrative well after Persia had already been Islamicized. You may want to sample randomly: it has the distinction of being the longest poetic work by a single author in the world, and the second longest poetic work of folklore/mythology, behind the Mahabharata. (I had the good fortune to take a class in Persian Lit from someone who's produced the most comprehensive English translation of it--Dick Davis; his rendition is eminently readable (and prose, not poetry), and the paperback edition is quite affordable. It's also available for Kindle at only slightly more. For that matter, the box set isn't unreasonably priced for three hardback volumes totaling almost 1,000 pages and containing over 500 color illos, though I imagine it's out of the price range most of us would be looking at. Some day.... ) If you want a more focused starting point, look for the Rostam (or Rustam) and Siyavash stories.

I would ask one question: do you have any particular reason you want to keep the cultures "intact" in your worlds? That is, do you want your Slavic-based culture to be entirely reflective of Slavic culture (and the same for Norse, Celtic, etc.)? You can always mix and match: your "land mass" could as easily be inhabited by a culture more closely resembling someone else--probably not a Greece-analog, since much of their culture was informed by maritime considerations; but it could be more Celtic in nature, or something completely non-IE (as present-day Russia once was: the Finno-Ugrics, again)... or something that's a blend of other elements. (By the way: did you know there was once a Celtic presence in what is now central Turkey--the Galatians?) Or you could put some of the elements you find interesting in Slavic lore in with other cultures... et cetera.

If you're seriously into IE groups, you could also look at a couple that existed on the margins, or which haven't survived to the present day: for the first, there's the Armenians; for the second, the Hittites (you'll see similarities between them and the Armenians... no surprise, given the geography) and the Etruscans (much of whose lore was borrowed by the Romans--they were probably as heavily influenced by the Etruscans as by the Greeks, though the Etruscans themselves show some commonalities with the Greeks). The Goths were Germanic, but formed a fairly distinct culture (rather, several) as they moved across Europe; not sure how much of their pre-Christian legend survives, though, so I'm not sure how useful they'd prove.

You might also check a couple other non-IE groups that had heavy interactions with Mediterranean cultures: the Iberians (no longer in existence), some of whose lore got recorded by the Mediterraneans who settled the peninsula (and some of whose artifacts turn up from time to time: look up the "Lady of Elx" (or Elche), an amazing piece of statuary that deserves a look in its own right, even if it doesn't tell you much about the culture), and the Basques, who are still there (and who appear to be a completely different culture from the Iberians... or anybody). The Maltese are also interesting, at least archaeologically (you'll be astounded at some of the things these people were building a couple millennia before the Minoans: look up Ggantija and Mnajdra--and yes, those are spelled correctly: modern Maltese is a, ehm, "fascinating" language...), though I'm not sure how much of their ancient lore has managed to survive, given that the island has been changing hands between numerous cultures over the past couple thousand years.

 

[Johnny Cosmo]

I would ask one question: do you have any particular reason you want to keep the cultures "intact" in your worlds? That is, do you want your Slavic-based culture to be entirely reflective of Slavic culture (and the same for Norse, Celtic, etc.)?

Not really. I'm just trying to imitate the feel of different cultures based on their geographic location on Earth, since the different races that inhabit the main focus of my work evolved from a single group, like the Proto-Indo-European people. The only reason I want place them similarly geographically, is that it just sort of happened like that when I came up with my first three groups of people. My Greeks and Roman inspired people were in the south, my Norse equivalents in the Norse, and to the West is an island of Celt-like people. I also have other unmet races around the world, inspired by other civilisations/races, that aren't the focus of my story. Now my thinking is that if I can imitate Earth enough, I can always fall back on history, and take ideas and influence from it when I need to explain things, or come up with more ideas.

At the moment I'm trying to make distinctions between my different groups so that I can design them, so to speak, but they won't be pure copies. Thanks for the reply, although it's a bit overwhelming. I'm trying to take things one step at a time, but at least I know that I can fit in influences from separate cultures when the time comes to explain why certain races are the way they are.

 

[Ravana]

The only reason I want place them similarly geographically, is that it just sort of happened like that when I came up with my first three groups of people.

Does make it easier to keep track of who's where. I ended up doing something similar when I created the Machiavel map.

Now my thinking is that if I can imitate Earth enough, I can always fall back on history, and take ideas and influence from it when I need to explain things, or come up with more ideas.

True... though I usually end up consciously trying to avoid this precisely because I don't want readers to say "Oh, those must be the Japanese." Or, worse, having them do that when I want them to be thinking something else, or at least not drawing associations I didn't intend. Perhaps I'm complicating things for myself a bit more than is strictly necessary at times... just happens to be my preference. Of course, sometimes I do want readers to draw certain background inferences; then I do it the way you're doing it now.

I've seen Glen Cook do some interesting obviously-Earth-based cultures, while managing to keep them from being completely predictable. In The Tower of Fear (a one-off, not part of any of his series), there is a mix/clash of three cultures: one obviously nomadic Semitic, one which appears to be settled Semitic, and a third which to me seems either settled Hebrew or (more likely) a mix of Hebrew and Greek/Roman. (Possibly four cultures, depending on how a certain small but pivotal group of characters gets placed relative to the whole.) In the later Black Company novels, the Company finds itself in a region obviously inspired by Hindu India, with minority cultures derived from Islamic India and, later, Vietnam (at least to some extent: I don't know how close the culture actually is, but the names are unmistakeable); they briefly have to deal with one based on feudal China as well. Which is interesting in part because the earlier novels aren't based on anything especially recognizable: they're pretty much "generic fantasy setting." Guess he felt a need to move away from that in decisive fashion in order to tell the next part of the story.

At the moment I'm trying to make distinctions between my different groups so that I can design them, so to speak, but they won't be pure copies. Thanks for the reply, although it's a bit overwhelming. I'm trying to take things one step at a time, but at least I know that I can fit in influences from separate cultures when the time comes to explain why certain races are the way they are.

You're welcome. Yeah, I have a bad habit of trying to say everything I can think of at once... sometimes it does get overwhelming, I'm sure. But you can always take it in parts and come back for more later: that's the beauty of having available text, eh?

 

[Johnny Cosmo]

True... though I usually end up consciously trying to avoid this precisely because I don't want readers to say "Oh, those must be the Japanese."

Well, I'm hoping to draw as much from the real world as I can, so that people can draw on their own ideas about different cultures, in the hopes that it will help with imagery.

This is only slightly related to the OP: I was originally hoping to give my only 'evil' race a Japanese feel (they're not really evil, just at odds with the races in my equivalent of Europe). I want them to have the warrior culture of medieval Japan, with exotic looking equipment and style. The thing is, I don't want to equate the medieval Japanese with my 'bad guys'. I had the idea of having them influenced by the Slavs instead, which wouldn't be much different to my Norse inspired men, except with a darker, more mysterious (and somewhat more magical) feel. Honestly though, the problem still remains, it's just not as obvious. Thoughts?

 

[Ravana]

Well, you'd still be equating somebody with "bad guys," so I'm not certain how much you'd gain by the change. It might not seem quite as jarring to your readers if both pro- and antagonist seem to come from the same general cultural group (that is, European). On the other hand, the concept of different cultures being at odds with one another shouldn't be anybody's idea of news, so as long as you don't make them inherently "evil," it probably shouldn't upset anybody. (Even then, let's face it: the odds of you seeing a book, at least one originally written in English, where the Mongols or Aztecs are portrayed as "good" guys is pretty slim.)

Might be a good point for some blending: take the Japanese culture, arm them with--oh, I don't know: Indonesian?--weapons (and maybe Indian armor: the Indonesians weren't all that big on wearing tons of metal in their marshlands and jungles), and give them all Slavic names. Or Belgian names, or something. Especially if you replace kami worship with Finno-Ugric (or Native American) shamanism, to provide your magic and/or religion. You could still use the Japanese for the underpinnings of future cultural/historical expansion as you want to (who's gonna recognize the Battle of Sekigahara without Japanese names or institutions attached to it? okay, besides me?); the spirit veneration isn't vastly different between the three cultures, and the rest is mere window dressing.

 

[Johnny Cosmo]

It might not seem quite as jarring to your readers if both pro- and antagonist seem to come from the same general cultural group (that is, European).

That was what I was hoping for. I think it should be fine, because I do have antagonists from each race. I think the biggest problem after the fact that they don't appear as a POV character, is with the design. I was sketching how I wanted them to look, and they look less human than my other people (which is explained by their evolution in a very different environment). I've recently tried redesigning them to be a little less scary, which seems to be going well. I'll probably stick with Slavic influence mainly, because it fits with the PIE thing I've got going, and I'll add a touch of of a few different cultures.

Thanks, I might not have changed a lot of things, buts it's nice to bounce ideas off someone else.

 

[Ravana]

Quite welcome. Any time.

 

[Johnny Cosmo]

I forgot to push this question: what were some of the major differences in style, clothing, and tone between the Germanic and Slavic people?