Clash of Cultures

[Jabrosky]

I find it amusing that the opposite scheme (e.g., lighter-skinned magical elves and Men of the West vs the darker-skinned Haradrim, the lily-white Narnians and Archenlanders vs. the dark-skinned Calormenes) is accepted, but when I choose to do the opposite it suddenly becomes a problem.

As a matter of fact I don't like the racial undertones in LotR either. If anything, those are even worse since they champion the socioeconomically dominant and oppressive group. And thank you for the clarification.

 

[Mindfire]

Good magic in Mindfire's setting is a gift from God, and since his dark-skinned people are the ones who worship the one true God . . . (Of course, there are plenty of implications in that alone.)

Let me be clear, I don't have an "agenda" or anything. Everything grew organically. I wanted a dark-skinned protagonist (sadly a rare thing in our genre), a (meta)physical magic system that wasn't just your average "true names"/"ancient language" shtick, and I wanted a universe that somewhat jived with my personal spiritual beliefs. After several interations and refinements for the sake of coherence, this is the result.

 

[Mindfire]

As a matter of fact I don't like the racial undertones in LotR either. If anything, those are even worse since they champion the socioeconomically dominant and oppressive group. And thank you for the clarification.

I didn't mean to insinuate that you did. Just making a general observation, largely prophetic. In all honesty, I wasn't so much criticizing your reaction as I was criticizing the reaction I expect to get from the grand majority publishers once I finish this thing.

 

[The Dark One]

Thanks for the tip. However, I should point out that your anthropology assumes (as does most scientific discipline) that the beliefs in question are not actually true and that the accompanying gods aren't actually real. For example if any one of the Abrahamic faiths is true, then mankind was monotheistic from the start and polytheism and animism came later. Leaving aside the question of the validity of real-world religions, the anthropological understanding of religious development doesn't really hold up in a fantasy world where gods actually and demonstrably exist and have played an active role in shaping human history, as the supernatural beings in my world have.

Which was more-or-less my point re what happens in your invented fantasy world, but don't forget that people are reading your book in the real world and they bring with them their own background knowledge which constitutes a complex myriad of filters through which they perceive your work.

By the way, the anthropological model assumes nothing about the reality of god(s). It simply notes that where a particular mode of production exists, a particular style of theology is (almost) always determined as I described earlier.

Maybe all the gods are real?

 

[Mindfire]

I have not read all the backstory, but it sounds like you want the core conflict of your story to be over religion. If so, you can simply invent whatever conflict you wish. As SineNomine noted, the points of difference can seem incredibly trifling to an outsider, so you could have your monotheists fighting each other or fighting outsiders. It is entirely believable and coherent to have your monotheists regard *all* other religions as deluded or even inimical. Orthodoxy tends to want to recapitulate itself.

And I wouldn't regard polytheists as all that tolerant or inclusive. Tribes tend to have their gods. If you belong to a different tribe, you have *your* gods, but they are my enemies and I'll have nothing to do with them. My gods, my laws, my customs, all these things go together and help define me as a tribe.

Nor does a polytheistic society need to be primitive. I offer the Romans as an example. Over and over again, especially during the Republic, we see the Romans reacting harshly against "foreign" gods who get blamed for undermining good, honest, Roman virtues.

All that having been said, theology is rarely the immediate driving force for individual conflict. It makes for background, but unless your story is a theological parable, I wouldn't put it in the foreground. Which is why I'm not writing your story!

Thanks for your input. Theology isn't the central conflict of the story, but it does play an important role.

 

[Devor]

In general, I agree. The problem is that if you set up a conflict, you need to have a satisfying payoff. If the three nations are squabbling over whose god is the real one, I can't think of an organic way to set up "the reveal" that isn't completely anti-climactic and doesn't make the entire subplot feel like a waste of the audience's time and a distraction from the main story.

I think this is true. There's no way "All three gods are really the same" is going to be a satisfying reveal to anyone.

BWFoster does have a point about "ratcheting up" the tension, but you can do that from a quasi-fraternity perspective. I mean, if your brother starts a fight, even one where he's in the wrong, then you're going to get pulled into it. And consider how many people abuse that, and start a fight just to get their friends wrapped up in it. There's plenty of opportunities for tension available.

Consider all the heresies in early Christianity and all the splits over views that are really, really pedantic. The Monophysite controversy was over whether Jesus Christ, after he had died and been resurrected, had two natures (One divine, One human) or one nature (A mix of both divine and human in a single nature). That's silly.

Your overall point stands, and I can understand why it would sound silly. But as someone who's pretty familiar with the theology behind it, if I had to pick a piece of theology worth going to war over (not that I would really want to go to war), these kinds of Christological questions would be it.

When a Christian talks about becoming "one with God," it's because love is a "perfect bond," as exemplified in the human and divine nature of Christ. It's not because Christians believe they are going to be subsumed by Him, which is what a single nature would suggest. It's the one topic which fully defines both the Christian view of God as loving and the nature of man as a fully distinct person, hence capable of choice. Once you start to develop upon the Monophysite belief system, it ultimately destroys the Christian worldview in favor of one much closer to pantheism.

As part of the bargain with their new gods, the Beorgians were "marked" with fair skin, whereas before, mankind had been universally brown-skinned.

I don't care about the portrayals, but I do think it's discomforting to use skin color as a mark of who's got the right religion. Even if you don't mean anything by it, and you were just trying to find a way to diversify from common roots, I think most people will assume you mean the worst.

---

Total aside, but is there a thread where you've talked about how the magic works in your world?

 

[Mindfire]

I think this is true. There's no way "All three gods are really the same" is going to be a satisfying reveal to anyone.

BWFoster does have a point about "ratcheting up" the tension, but you can do that from a quasi-fraternity perspective. I mean, if your brother starts a fight, even one where he's in the wrong, then you're going to get pulled into it. And consider how many people abuse that, and start a fight just to get their friends wrapped up in it. There's plenty of opportunities for tension available.

You have a good point here. And I think I'm going to end up doing something like this. As I said, I originally concieved of the problem as a strict dichotomy between instant friendship and complete hostility. I think something in between the extremes will work best.

I don't care about the portrayals, but I do think it's discomforting to use skin color as a mark of who's got the right religion. Even if you don't mean anything by it, and you were just trying to find a way to diversify from common roots, I think most people will assume you mean the worst.

---

Total aside, but is there a thread where you've talked about how the magic works in your world?

I see your point. This is what the Beorgians themselves believe, and it's part of the reason for their antipathy towards the Dark Nations. Whether it is true or not I have not fully decided. (My cosmology isn't a perfectly static system, and evolves constantly.) Originally they just became fair-skinned because of generations of adaptation to their environment, like actual Europeans. However, I quickly realized that there just wasn't enough space in my timeline to allow for this, so I came up with the idea that their gods did it.

And there probably is a thread on my magic system around here somewhere. I could dig it up if you want, but since, as I said, my system isn't perfectly static, the concepts there are probably a little out of date. Did you have any specific questions or are you just looking for an overview?

 

[Devor]

And there probably is a thread on my magic system around here somewhere. I could dig it up if you want, but since, as I said, my system isn't perfectly static, the concepts there are probably a little out of date. Did you have any specific questions or are you just looking for an overview?

I was just a bit curious what you came up with since you've done quite a bit of worldbuilding and have spun the typical world on its head. I thought maybe you'd come up with something different and cool.

I don't want to waste your time, so I thought maybe you'd posted an overview and I missed it.

 

[Mindfire]

I was just a bit curious what you came up with since you've done quite a bit of worldbuilding and have spun the typical world on its head. I thought maybe you'd come up with something different and cool.

I don't want to waste your time, so I thought maybe you'd posted an overview and I missed it.

To be honest my magic is not terribly revolutionary. I think it's unique enough not to be generic, but nothing to write home about. My inspiration came mainly from Avatar: the Last Airbender and Codex Alera, though other things have crept in. I wanted to aim at something simple and intuitive rather than a complicated, quasi-scientific system or your average Elder Scrolls-esque scheme of schools and disciplines. I wanted it to tie into my cosmology in a meaningful way, and I definitely wanted to stay the heck away from "true names". I think they've been done almost to death. With my magic, I try to define things just enough so that it all stays consistent, but leave enough unexplained so that there's some "wiggle room" for creativity and so it doesn't intrude on the story or demand too much memorization from the reader. Consequently, my magic powers tend to be rather simple abilities that the characters then use in creative and (hopefully) interesting ways, rather than a massive list of spells and counter-spells.

For example, one of my main featured abilities, and the one most relied on by my protagonist, is soulfire. Or, more accurately, soulfire is the name of the trait and firecasting is the art of using it. The power itself is pretty simple and obvious: the ability to create and control magical fire. But since the ability is powered by the user's imagination, the fire can do way more than just burn things if you're creative enough. The power of the casting is directly proportional to the amount of imagination put into it, which incentivizes creativity. Flashy attacks actually do more damage than boring fireballs, so firecasting is just as much about artistic skill as it is about martial ability and its users actually place more value in the artistic aspect and the self-expression than they do in fighting, per ce. The art even incorporates dance-like movements in order to immerse the user completely into the act of creation, though particularly powerful firecasters can create elaborate designs without moving a single muscle. Firecasting also has countless non-combat applications. For example, a talented firecaster can spawn an entity known as a firehawk, which is a small, phoenix-like creature that exists to fulfill a single command (scouting an area, retrieving an item, delivering a message) before "burning out" and ceasing to exist. Soulfire is a blood-linked trait that was given to the ancestors of the Mavarians to help them overcome the Thrakoan "dragons" that had enslaved them in ancient times.

There are other abilities in my universe, plus some magical artifacts, and each of them has a purpose and a history behind them, as well as a philosophy which guides their use. The origin of magic is linked to my world's history and its cosmology. I'd be glad to discuss it at length if you're interested, but like I said, nothing earth-shattering.

 

[Helen]

So in the world I've constructed, there are about three cultures who all worship the same god, but under different names and with different aspects emphasized. Obviously they don't agree on everything; they have different traditions, worship styles, etc. But theologically there are no real contradictions between their views. I'm wondering if it would be better to make them knowledgeable of this fact, and embrace each other in a kind of spiritual fraternity, or to keep them ignorant of this fact, leading to a source of cultural conflict.

I feel like if I go the conflict route, it'll be just a pointless distraction from the plot that I have to conjure some kind of contrived resolution for later. But if I go the fraternity route, some readers might see that as a cop-out, or get annoyed because it would draw further attention to the fact that the "battle lines" in my WIP are largely drawn between Monotheists (Good Guys) and Polytheists/Atheists/Everybody Else (Bad Guys), though not without exceptions. To be honest, I'm leaning towards fraternity.

Thoughts?

I would go with the conflict route.

What you're doing is creating opposite worlds (each with thematic meaning).

e.g. in AVATAR there's a reason why the military world and the Na'vi world are opposites.

 

[Mindfire]

I would go with the conflict route.

What you're doing is creating opposite worlds (each with thematic meaning).

e.g. in AVATAR there's a reason why the military world and the Na'vi world are opposites.

I meant should I have conflict between those who are on the same side. Conflict between opposite sides is a given.

 

[Devor]

For example, one of my main featured abilities, and the one most relied on by my protagonist, is soulfire. Or, more accurately, soulfire is the name of the trait and firecasting is the art of using it. The power itself is pretty simple and obvious: the ability to create and control magical fire. But since the ability is powered by the user's imagination, the fire can do way more than just burn things if you're creative enough. The power of the casting is directly proportional to the amount of imagination put into it, which incentivizes creativity.

So kind of like the Green Lantern, but with fire? That's kind of cool.

 

[Mindfire]

So kind of like the Green Lantern, but with fire? That's kind of cool.

That's a pretty good way to put it. Except that a masterful user can create constructs that can act autonomously, like the firehawk or other animal totems that perform specific tasks independent of the user. I don't think Green Lanterns can do that. However, doing this depletes the user's power in an amount proportional to the size, power, and complexity of the construct and the user is limited to less complex castings until their power recovers. Like the overheat guage the guns in some shooter games have. It's a limit I added to keep them from getting too overpowered. Otherwise, each and every Mavarian could manufacture their own personal army.

Generally, animal totems are used only by the most powerful masters because of the attending power drain. Most Mavarians prefer creative techniques that don't leave them vulnerable afterward. For example: they live in a desert. There's sand everywhere. So a small fiery whirlwind can whip up the sand, melt it into glass, and then hurl a barrage of glass shards at an opponent.