Dragonslaying

[psychotick]

Hi,

Been a while since I saw this thread, but here's another way. Saw it in one of the terrible D and D movies. Use magic to summon another dragon to fight it!

Cheers, Greg.

 

[wordwalker]

Hi,

Been a while since I saw this thread, but here's another way. Saw it in one of the terrible D and D movies. Use magic to summon another dragon to fight it!

Cheers, Greg.

Almost as soon as I wrote this I started wishing I'd put it at 10 ways. Guess I was too in love with the Earthsea example, that treats dragon-form as just another subtype of magic attack.

A better example of that tenth method would of course be How to Train Your Dragon, but I'd give an honorable mention for any hero who simply lures one wild dragon into fighting another (all together: "and sells popcorn!").

 

[SeverinR]

Fair enough, but that's fairly textbook. Range may mean a longer time to target, but it also means the target is less likely to be concerned with you. A dependable movement path isn't that difficult requirement to meet - it's still only seconds, and dragons are a big target.

As for the longbow, it's a great weapon but I think it's been oversold. While it can pierce chainmail with the right arrowhead, it did so by exploiting the weaknesses of chainmail. The same arrowhead would probably be useless against scales, and I don't think the blunter arrowheads designed to break platemail would penetrate far enough into the dragon's skin to get your killing shot. Breaking scales plus getting depth is a lot to accomplish with one shot - I don't think you can do it without the kind of force you can get with a ballista.

(edit) Blunt isn't the right word for platemail piercing arrows, but the point holds. I'm on the kindle or I'd look it up.

I think an arrow would have to go up(under) scale, not try to penetrate a scale.
I think the arrow head of tip of the ballista missle would have to be very tough material or it would shatter on impact of the scale.

I have always thought, the best way to kill a dragon;
If it flies, it dies.
Gravity is heavy stuff. The dragon is well armored, but against blunt force trauma? Such as hitting the ground at a high rate of speed. Destroy the wings and it will fall. It will at least be stunned, swarm it with long sharp objects poked in the soft parts of the body.
Support:
1.The brain, (small like a dinosaur) or large will come into contact with the armor plates, swell and then will have no place to expand inside the armor, traumatic brain injury kills a dragon the same as a person.
2.the neck is long and smaller then the body or head, the muscles are tough and use to supporting it, but an impact to the neck will cause a severe large force multiplied by the angles of the vertebre, small bones, even extremely tough could not take the force of impact on them, leaving the dragon paralyzed from a broken neck. It would be a very well armored non-movable dying lizard.
3.The internal organs, while fire resistant and tough enough to handle food swollowed whole, it also cannot be slammed up against the armored walls of the dragon on impact, the organs would rupture, causing internal bleeding and eventually death.

Now the impact site;
If the impact site is soft, it will lessen the force that causes the damage above, survivability is increased.

If a dragon can crash head first into a solid rock wall, then close the book, the dragon cannot be killed by anything other then magic. No ballista, no arrow or even primitive explosion that would equal the forces of a dragon crashing into a solid object.

In my world, there is no super beast. If there is a super beast, then it would conquer the world. Society might have to figure out a way to kill a new beast, but it should not be invulnerable. Basic physics should be considered.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

No, even if a dragon can survive a direct head first smash into the cliff that doesn't mean it can't be killed by anything save magic. There's always disease, poison, and I saw this one a long time ago, suffocation. Essentially collapsing the dragon's cave up around the mouth so he can't get out and letting him run out of air.

As for ruling the world again no. Top of the food chain or peak predators today don't rule the world. Lions starve when they eat too much of the prey that keeps them alive, sharks eat their own young, tigers maul one another if they wander into each other's teritory - and of course mating's always tricky with teeth and claws. Dragons could be invulnerable to weapons and regulate its own numbers simply by poor breeding rates, dangerous mating flights, disease, low survival during their early years when they are vulnerable.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Zero Angel]

In my world, there is no super beast. If there is a super beast, then it would conquer the world. Society might have to figure out a way to kill a new beast, but it should not be invulnerable. Basic physics should be considered.

...I just have multiple super-beasts...

 

[Shadowfirelance]

You all are totally missing the point.

True Dragons aren't really meant to be killed.

At all.

Now, I will admit, True Dragons can be killed, just not by anything short of the Hero of the main story. Otherwise, it's just cheating.

On Dragons ruling the world: Only thing keeping them in check is themselves, they don't really work well together.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Had anyone mentioned a stick of lit dynamite up his nose?

Just in a weird mood, today. You guys are scaring the crap out of my dragon characters. O.O

 

[teacup]

True Dragons aren't really meant to be killed.

At all.

Now, I will admit, True Dragons can be killed, just not by anything short of the Hero of the main story. Otherwise, it's just cheating.

True Dragons? What do you mean?
And why do you think it has to be the hero of the main story to kill them?

 

[Shadowfirelance]

True Dragons? What do you mean?
And why do you think it has to be the hero of the main story to kill them?

Because True, Non-young Dragons are the most powerful beings on their world. True Dragons have natural magic far beyond The wisest Archmages, possess more wisdom and cunning than any mortal, and more charm than any Bard. They're just short of immortality, and they're paranoid as heck.

The slaying of a Dragon should be one that changes history. That makes the Hero a King, or a Emperor.

And why would you kill a young Dragon when you could just as easily befriend him/her and have an ally for life?

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Because True, Non-young Dragons are the most powerful beings on their world. True Dragons have natural magic far beyond The wisest Archmages, possess more wisdom and cunning than any mortal, and more charm than any Bard. They're just short of immortality, and they're paranoid as heck. The slaying of a Dragon should be one that changes history. That makes the Hero a King, or a Emperor. And why would you kill a young Dragon when you could just as easily befriend him/her and have an ally for life?

This may be true for the vision of a fantasy world you've created. It certainly doesn't transcend into another writer's vision by default.

I've seen lots of different depictions of what a dragon is, and they're not all Smaug.

 

[teacup]

Because True, Non-young Dragons are the most powerful beings on their world. True Dragons have natural magic far beyond The wisest Archmages, possess more wisdom and cunning than any mortal, and more charm than any Bard. They're just short of immortality, and they're paranoid as heck.

The slaying of a Dragon should be one that changes history. That makes the Hero a King, or a Emperor.

And why would you kill a young Dragon when you could just as easily befriend him/her and have an ally for life?

I'm guessing you're talking about your story?

 

[Devor]

Revisiting this from like a year ago,

To really take on a dragon, we should think a little more tactical and consider a tiered, combined arms approach. Dragons don't have a weak spot, so is there a way to create one? What if we loaded a ballista/catapult with a spiked net to grab onto the scales and pull it to rip them off? If we can get more power ramming it while it's on the ground, could we use arrows and ropes to ground its wings? If it's too large to kill with poison, what if we tried toxins with a more localized effect? Could we trap its claws inside a vat of tar-like goop? What do we have to get it to bite for some of its teeth to come out? Is there a way to blind it? That kind of thing.

 

[Chessie]

Has anyone mentioned dragonshouts from Skyrim yet?

THAT is the way the dovahkiin kills dragons.

Dragonrend is the ultimate way to slay a wyrm. It just requires the Staff of Magnus to also keep the dragon from using its magical breath.

 

[wordwalker]

Naah, all I've ever needed is strong Enchantments for fireproofing and frostproofing. Then the dragon's stopping to breathe just means he's giving me a breather. (Skyrim dragons are fun, but they aren't the full experience.)

 

[psychotick]

I kill dragons in Skyrimwith a sword and shield - and there's a great cutaway scene when you do it which shows me beheading the thing! Cheers, Greg.

 

[SeverinR]

You all are totally missing the point.

True Dragons aren't really meant to be killed.

At all.

Now, I will admit, True Dragons can be killed, just not by anything short of the Hero of the main story. Otherwise, it's just cheating.

On Dragons ruling the world: Only thing keeping them in check is themselves, they don't really work well together.

Actually a super dragon would rule anything in a range it wishes to control. Possibly just laziness would keep it from ruling a kingdom/world. If they can walk through an army of 1000 men mowing them down, there is nothing stopping them from conquering everything except time and energy.
If you live in an area of alot of dragons, there will be dragon worship and dragon taxes. Bow down to the dragon with as much riches as they want or they fry your town. It would happen in low population dragons too, but people could move away when the dragon wasn't looking.
Dragon territory wars would be a problem, and both dragons might kill each other.

If the hero can kill a dragon, what keeps everyone else from killing it? Typical quest item, but why doesn't the leader with thousands of men get the artifact instead of the hero with a rag tag group of misfits?

I guess it breaks down to my writing style, I don't like epic. I believe the world can only be saved by the lowly farm boy who is actually a king in hiding with special powers, so many times. I believe there is stories that can be interesting without the world being in perile every time. And if it turns epic, it shouldn't go from MC being a lowly no body to conquering the world threat in a relative short period of time. Maybe book three of a trilogy the MC becomes BA. Book one=how bad the MC'life is, finds reason to change. Book two training and improvement, boook Three MC triumphs.
Of course each previous book can have minor victories as an ending or even set backs that set up book three.

I would say a dragon must be hard to kill, but there has to be a reason why they don't enslave man? Why do they let man control the land?
In one book I am working on, a ballista hits just the right angle under the dragons arm, fatal shot but the dragon is able to get the rider to ground before it dies.
I never specified if the tip of the ballista was special material or not.

Basically, the more dragons you have in the world, the more likely you will need to kill them. If there is only a dozen or less in a world, they aren't a problem. If there is 20 dragons within a league radius, you will need to deal with them.

 

[glutton]

If the hero can kill a dragon, what keeps everyone else from killing it? Typical quest item, but why doesn't the leader with thousands of men get the artifact instead of the hero with a rag tag group of misfits?

Maybe the dragon could see 1,000 men coming but the lone hero has a better chance to get close enough?

Maybe most of the 1,000 soldiers would flee in panic upon seeing dozens of comrades dead in one breath but the hero has more fortitude?

Or maybe the hero actually is as formidable as an army on their lonesome lol.

 

[wordwalker]

Honestly, ordinary troops aren't much good against a dragon, no matter how many they are. They can barely dent its scales (if it even stays on the ground), and most troopers will be lucky to get in one swing because its flame, sweeping tail, and many other tricks are perfect for mowing down crowds.

--Hmm, if I wanted to create a creature to fight armies, wouldn't it be...

Their main options would be massed arrowfire and hoping a couple shots at least nicked the beast, or more likely ballistas or a lance charge. But if the dragon is still on the ground when those knights get across the field, or doesn't start dodging and flaming the ballistas, it doesn't deserve to live another thousand years.

 

[Zero Angel]

I can see most fantasy dragons decimating armies, but I strongly doubt that they would be ultimately victorious unless they were VERY careful and it wasn't a straight-up fight. I.e. guerilla dragons.

And I realize that Smaug is the go-to fantasy dragon, but if you look at myth, dragons were rarely anywhere near super-powerful and were much more of a nuisance. They were invincible to most commoners, but vulnerable to knights. I'm fine with dragons being much more powerful, but I don't quite get making them unbeatable.

My dragons were originally super-powerful though, and at that point they are usually referred to as "dragon-gods". There were only a few trillion of them though, so they got smashed by the demon overlord. Luckily, that led to the creation of the multiverse as the dragon-gods tried to escape, but in so doing, they were Lessened. They kept getting Lessened over the years as different cataclysms happened until present-day dragon youths are not much more powerful than normal adventurers.

Again, if super-powerful dragons are your thing, that's cool, but bear in mind what it means to be super-powerful and they probably need a foil of some sort.

Also, if they are super-powerful, then a quest for a weapon that kills them is not going to hold my attention, and unless your hero is a Superman equivalent, then my bet is going to be on an army (or if it's an assassination quest as opposed to a straight-up fight).

On the other hand, committing your troops to try to kill a dragon is entirely different. The cost of lives and supplies may not be worth the end result. In that case, if there is a group of adventurers that want to do it for a modest sum if they're successful and no cost if they fail, then that's cool too.

 

[Shadowfirelance]

I love the two large posts above.
They bring up two very important points.

Anything that is not a god, can be killed at some point. (Even some gods for that matter.) So can Dragons. But, A Dragon should be an Epic thing that gets myths told about, and Legends wrote. An Army COULD kill one, and fame would follow them, which I am totally fine with.

The hero won't go on a quest to kill a Dragon, his best bet is to bargain with his life with it. You won't see anything but the best involving Dragons in my story.

(Once again, It is MY opinion. Sorry If I come off a bit 'Holier than thou."