Four-letter words in literature...

[Mad Swede]

We've been discussing C S Lewis in another thread, and there is a quote from an interview with him (in a TV program discussing eroticism in the arts) which I think might interest quite a few here:

Interviewer: "Tell me, Lewis, why do you disapprove of the use of four-letter words in literature?"

C S Lewis: "Because they are not erotic enough! They are not aphrodisiac enough. If you look through classical literature you will find that four-letter words are reserved for scurrility, satire and abuse. These are not the emotions that we wish to feel, are we, when we are making love?"

So what do we think about the use of four-letter words to convey eroticism and feelings of desire?

 

[RoccO]

I like Screwtape Letters and The Great Devorce. One is about spirits, communing with each other, and the other asks interesting questions about peace and metaphysics.

I can see why C S Lewis would have based opinions on eroticism and abuse. Ask Aslan, and he would probably bite your head off.

It comes as a bit of a surprise that Easter Mass opens up the mind like Narnia did, in a different world, maybe with the deplorable word of Jadis, pealing like a bell?

 

[pmmg]

Maybe CS Lewis did not read erotica.. Sometimes those words do get used in 'hot' ways.

It feels like he was searching for the word 'sexy' and could not find it. Course, making love, and just erotic are not really the same.

I avoid these words in my own writing as they feel lazy, and unimaginative to me. I suppose, to some degree, writing and art is showing off what I can do, and I dont want my brand to be 'reached for easy words cause that subs in for real' (I am looking at you Steven King). I'm an artist, Dammit, I can do better!

I want the right the words, and I want them to do the job the right way. Sometimes it may be those four letter sentence enhancers, but, so far, I've not seen the need.

If I was writing erotica though... Well, F..., I might use them.

(F... = Fiddlesticks. Get your mind out of the gutter )

 

[skip.knox]

Depends on the genre (even just within fantasy), the author, and the reader.

If the language is used in an erotic scene, the author must bring the characters to that point. This means they have used such language in other contexts. Otherwise it would be out of character, as it were. That in turn means the author had better be pretty sharp at using explicit language. All too often it's mere laziness, the 21st century version of "very". It can be done if done well, but there are so many ways in which it can be done poorly.

To put this another way, it's a bit like using slang or using dialect. Easy to get wrong, difficult to get right, and often wasn't needed anyway.

 

[Penpilot]

For me, it's simple. It's about using the right tool for the job.

Word choices can say things about who the POV character is and what they feel in the moment. In more romantic moments, one might use softer language, and during those romantic moments one might build towards a moment where the POV character may feel a bit of lust where a few blunt words may be what's needed to get the point across.

Of course these things also need to be consistent with character and the type of story being told. Having a character suddenly drop four-letter spice into the middle of a story when they've never used those words, or anything close to them, before would be quite off-putting.

 

[Mad Swede]

My own view on this is that too often four-letter words become lazy writing, in that many people use those four-letter words when with a bit of thought they could use other words to convey the same sensuousness and desire and write much better prose. In that sense - and having read some of the classic Greek and Latin literature - I agree with C S Lewis, there are often better ways of conveying those emotions.

I also wonder if the use of four-letter words is down to some writers confusing erotica with porn. They aren't the same thing, and erotica can be a lot more subtle than porn. In my view one of the best examples of the use of non-explicit language to convey erotic desire and sensuousness in literature is Fanny Hill.

 

[RoccO]

Sometimes you get anachronisms that seem a bit like a pardon me from a grand old person, like some names in those ancient movies or books you think is a slip of the mind from old age rather than a slip of the forked tongue.

You kind of wonder where censorship comes from and if it is a cruelty rather than anything with an original morality to it. Then there is immaturity, which seems to be inbred into our species, that might make something like a four letter word worth screaming about.

There are perhaps times when you wish to have a real punchy effect so that would cover my theory about old age and censorship being a thing you just ignore out of spite like an ingrown toe nail or maybe some symbology that somehow got mixed up with hamburgers and couches.

 

[Finchbearer]

Aside from not quite being able to imagine CS Lewis discussing the subtleties of ‘eroticism in the arts’, I’d say it’s down to personal taste.
First of all, erotica in creative writing can and often is pornography, just using words, and to greater and lesser extents is there to arouse the reader, and is what separates it from romance, although I believe Romance (with a capital R) gets around the issue of marketing it as erotica (even though I don’t see what’s wrong with calling is what it is) but perhaps this is also because some writers want to separate themselves from the slew of badly written erotica…even if their work is essentially cut from the same block.
On subtleties and personal taste, the better erotica I’ve read, has omitted so-called four letter words, and it’s usually everything around the actual act itself that works or functions to convey the eroticism.
If you’re coming to erotica for the plot, you’d be mistaken, the plot is the erotic elements and not the…ahem…the plot.
In more classic romance, where the aim is NOT to arouse the reader, and to have some literary value, then of course, I feel it would be both crass and lazy to go ahead and use four letter words every second paragraph.
The psychological aspect of whatever makes something erotic is always going to be more powerful, I feel, in literature, over pure mechanics.

 

[Mad Swede]

Aside from not quite being able to imagine CS Lewis discussing the subtleties of ‘eroticism in the arts’,

Which is said to be why the late Kenneth Tynan suggested C S Lewis be interviewed for the program. (It should be noted that C S Lewis had been Tynan's tutor at Oxford, so Tynan knew Lewis very well.) The story goes that C S Lewis shocked the interviewer and production team into silence with his views, which were not what they had expected...

I’d say it’s down to personal taste.
First of all, erotica in creative writing can and often is pornography, just using words, and to greater and lesser extents is there to arouse the reader, and is what separates it from romance, although I believe Romance (with a capital R) gets around the issue of marketing it as erotica (even though I don’t see what’s wrong with calling is what it is) but perhaps this is also because some writers want to separate themselves from the slew of badly written erotica…even if their work is essentially cut from the same block.
On subtleties and personal taste, the better erotica I’ve read, has omitted so-called four letter words, and it’s usually everything around the actual act itself that works or functions to convey the eroticism.
If you’re coming to erotica for the plot, you’d be mistaken, the plot is the erotic elements and not the…ahem…the plot.

And it is this that C S Lewis objected to. His view, put very simply, was that eroticism should be about love (or care or affection or all of these), sensuousness and desire expressed in a literary context. Lewis expected good prose (and indirectly a good plot) and based this on the classic Greek and Latin literature and also the later medieval and renaissance English literature which he knew so well. Lewis wasn't opposed to eroticism, what he objected to was lazy writing.

In essence, this was C S Lewis' criticism of D H Lawrence's Lady Chatterley's Lover. Lewis felt that the novel itself was good enough to not need the sex scenes , but then qualified that by saying that if Lawrence wanted to include the sex scenes then he should have done more to give them the same literary quality present in the rest of the novel by using other words and expressions to convey the depth of feelings between Mellors and Lady Chatterley.

In more classic romance, where the aim is NOT to arouse the reader, and to have some literary value, then of course, I feel it would be both crass and lazy to go ahead and use four letter words every second paragraph.
The psychological aspect of whatever makes something erotic is always going to be more powerful, I feel, in literature, over pure mechanics.

I don't use four-letter words (or their Swedish equivalents) in my stories, and I don't include sex scenes. But that doesn't mean I ignore the sensuous side of the the interactions between some of the characters. In that sense I agree with C S Lewis, the core of a novel or short story (in terms of characterisation and story arc) should be complex enough to not need sex scenes. But I do want to add scenes where the affection, love and sensuousness between two characters comes across, because that adds to the depth of both their characterisation and to the story itself. If some readers find those scenes erotic (and believe me, some do) then so be it, but that isn't why those scenes are there.

 

[Finchbearer]

What exactly did CS Lewis object to what I wrote? (Because you quoted a huge chunk of my comment there, and not literally of course, that would be weird).
Huh. I actually think Chatterley’s Lover is very literary, and for all the reasons CS Lewis probably hated it. There’s a lot of interesting writing in there, from the perspective of Lady Chatterley’s herself especially, showing the female need for sexual expression and sensuousness, and where she finds it versus where she doesn’t. She has more lovers than just Mellors. The sex scenes themselves are (for the time) written in daring manner, in that Lawrence perhaps aimed for some realism over the usual gratuitous more flowery language so commonly seen in R romance genre fiction today. Each scene advanced our understanding of Lady Chatterley’s psychology around her own sexuality, her needs and her overall life aspirations. The biggest mistake he made in my opinion was have them fall in love and plan to co-habit.
The films don’t do it justice either, I think it’s like The Great Gatsby, they should be read not watched.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Depends on which four letter words you're talking about...

Damn? I don't use it often and when I DO use it, I use it in a way that is appropriate. (And even then, I never have my characters say 'damn you' as I am a Christian ) I try to use this one sparingly.

Shit? I mean, ok, it's childish, but I can see a way to use this word cleverly. One instance of this that made me Wheeze (we were in a theater at the time so, not outloud) was in the newer planet of the apes movie. One of the monkeys hears a human character say 'shit' in frustration, and is inquisitive. Human tries and fails to explain it's meaning. Later in the movie, something dangerous happens to a human character as a result of something the ape character did. He turns to the screen and with a neutral tone goes 'shit' after a pause of silence.

Fuck? I don't see a reason to use this one unless it's teen or potty mouth characters talking about sex. Or screaming in pain.

 

[Finchbearer]

Depends on which four letter words you're talking about...

I think the forum rule is no swearing.

In romance, or erotica, it’s possible some of those four letter words are more anatomical in nature.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

I think the forum rule is no swearing.

Hmm should I edit? I think it depends on context of the use. I made a thread about swearing explaining how and when I use certain ones (and asking how often I should use em) and I wasn't yelled at in that particular instance.

In romance, or erotica, it’s possible some of those four letter words are more anatomical in nature.

Ahh those, yeah, I don't use those very often (though one of my parody stories I will have to due to it's nature. But I'll try not to spam them until the brain tires of reading it) In regards to the others. (that also happen to be four letters for the most part...huh, weird) Like I said, I use em, but I use so sparingly. Even when the character in question would make an angry Scotsman blush.

The only time I've used a particular one, is when a male character was calling a Jock one because of the way he acted. And there's one swear I refuse to use because A: it's a very rude/harmful thing to call a lady. and B: I don't like the way the word sounds outloud. just feels disgusting lol

 

[Mad Swede]

What exactly did CS Lewis object to what I wrote? (Because you quoted a huge chunk of my comment there, and not literally of course, that would be weird).
Huh. I actually think Chatterley’s Lover is very literary, and for all the reasons CS Lewis probably hated it. There’s a lot of interesting writing in there, from the perspective of Lady Chatterley’s herself especially, showing the female need for sexual expression and sensuousness, and where she finds it versus where she doesn’t. She has more lovers than just Mellors. The sex scenes themselves are (for the time) written in daring manner, in that Lawrence perhaps aimed for some realism over the usual gratuitous more flowery language so commonly seen in R romance genre fiction today. Each scene advanced our understanding of Lady Chatterley’s psychology around her own sexuality, her needs and her overall life aspirations. The biggest mistake he made in my opinion was have them fall in love and plan to co-habit.
The films don’t do it justice either, I think it’s like The Great Gatsby, they should be read not watched.

C S Lewis did not dislike Lady Chatterley's Lover. Far from it, he saw it's literary qualities. He seems to have felt that it could have been improved by using prose which was more erotic and perhaps less direct when it came to sex. By then (and by the time of the interview I mentioned) Lewis was married (to Joy Gresham) so he was well aware of the sensuous side of close relationships. This is, I think, what Lewis meant about the use of four letter words; he didn't object to sex scenes or erotic descriptions, what he wanted to see more of was the love and affection and sense of attraction between people in a relationship when describing such scenes.

 

[pmmg]

Depends on which four letter words you're talking about...

Damn? I don't use it often and when I DO use it, I use it in a way that is appropriate. (And even then, I never have my characters say 'damn you' as I am a Christian ) I try to use this one sparingly.

Shit? I mean, ok, it's childish, but I can see a way to use this word cleverly. One instance of this that made me Wheeze (we were in a theater at the time so, not outloud) was in the newer planet of the apes movie. One of the monkeys hears a human character say 'shit' in frustration, and is inquisitive. Human tries and fails to explain it's meaning. Later in the movie, something dangerous happens to a human character as a result of something the ape character did. He turns to the screen and with a neutral tone goes 'shit' after a pause of silence.

Fuck? I don't see a reason to use this one unless it's teen or potty mouth characters talking about sex. Or screaming in pain.

You need to share this with Steven King.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

You need to share this with Steven King.

If I knew steven King would take my advise I totally would lol
We both know he wouldn't, but I mean, if he did. big W for me I guess?

I also forgot Hell, which I barely use at all (Again, whole Christian thing) but when I do use it it's more the 'hell if I know/what the hell' and similar uses rather than directly referencing the bad place. Again, my characters rarely use 'language' but when they do I try to pair it down some. Even the potty mouths that would make a Scotsman Blush (And yes I do know not all Scottish people swear like that) get a stern talking to before I write their dialogue. Unless they're currently in insane amounts of physical pain (For example, having an arm lobbed off with a fire sword while also curing them of a curse that was caused by said sword) then I totally get it.

 

[pmmg]

When I was younger, those words you listed, you would never say... But, things changed. Now everyone uses them, and words we used way back when we cant speak anymore. So it goes....

I don't like to use Damn unless its in the real biblical sense. The other words I've not used at all. They would not fit with my story world.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

When I was younger, those words you listed, you would never say... But, things changed. Now everyone uses them, and words we used way back when we cant speak anymore. So it goes....

I don't like to use Damn unless its in the real biblical sense. The other words I've not used at all. They would not fit with my story world.

TBH I use a swear, maybe once or twice a chapter, if that. (I try to keep instances of swearing to 5 at max) I try not to use them unless I REALLY feel said character is the 'type' to swear, if that makes sense.

It gets tricky when you're writing for fandoms that don't really swear (and if they do they censor it and make it silly instead) at all, but you're writing for an older audience and your characters are older/more mature. It's like ? Should I allow this ? lol

I have a couple characters who wouldn't swear even when they have a perfectly good excuse to, so when they finally do do it the readers like 'ok the situation is that bad' or similar.

I'm trying to use less and less swears, but sometimes it feels like it makes sense. Though, if it doesn't on the re-read during editing I mean, nothing stopping me from removing them.

 

[RoccO]

In more classic romance, where the aim is NOT to arouse the reader, and to have some literary value, then of course, I feel it would be both crass and lazy to go ahead and use four letter words every second paragraph.
The psychological aspect of whatever makes something erotic is always going to be more powerful, I feel, in literature, over pure mechanics.

I think four letter words make it less erotic and more of a flash bang. This might be different in the battle of the sexes. Purely for plot, I have read that description evokes the mind just as much as character progression and should be respected in harmony. There is regarding audience a gap between age and maturity however this can arise from many influences and should not be too off putting where a four letter word may even work.

 

[Prince of Spires]

The discussion on four letter words has me wondering if there are other numbers which have the exact number of letters as the number they're spelling out.

Yes, my brain is weird.