Has medieval style fantasy had its day?

[Jackarandajam]

Gotta say, from from an unpublished writers perspective, this conversation is strangely motivating.
Kinda like being on the way to Cali during the gold rush and listening to miners kvetch about process and how much they've scraped up. Some better than others, all about the mine and the area and the technique.
I'm still somewhere in kansas yelling giddyup at the wagon, but I'm a-comin.

Edit: to be clear, I'm not comparing a book to striking it rich, no delusions on that count. I've just set my mind to doing what yall are, so shop talk makes me want in on it.

 

[The Dark One]

Understanding geology and knowing where the gold is likely to be is a useful addition to your analogy.

It's what we were originally talking about.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

No, I'm not big on socials. I just don't have the time, and I'm not really running any serious ads at the moment. Just a trickle. Life took a few turns since Eve of Snows and I'm kind of at that "damn, I'm comfortable" point in life where it just doesn't make sense to do social media when I hate social media, and it would cut into the scattered few hours of sleep I get between writing and life. So, my purpose right now is to build the backlist from now until the point where time and money are on my side while I study the evolution of marketing books over the next couple of years. I'll be ticking up my convention presence and socials over the next few years while getting a feel for the next phase.

Either way, I'm going to take the advice of ONE guy on query letters—I don't recall who, but I think he's the only one I've seen say this—is instead of yapping the sales pitch, talk "business plan." The more I look into the industry, the more I think this is true. I suspected it was true back then, but to be blunt, I had no business plan when I launched EoS. My bad! Since I didn't really expect much to happen, I wasn't ready for take-off and didn't have a clue how well I was doing, LMAO.

That, and backlist, backlist, backlist.

OR, I might just end up so comfortable that I just publish my books happy-go-lucky without sweating reaching the brick-and-mortar stores. But, like an Indie who went trad and back to hybrid, I think the B&M opens up another audience and will overcome any short-term losses and pain in the assery.

I dont get the impression you are on many socials Dems. Are you doing more than paying for ads with what you do?

 

[The Dark One]

DDN's plan is almost identical to my own.

I've never had time to market myself and am not a self-promoter by nature. Most of my effort has gone into creating the products and I do have a backlist which has been rated pretty well on GR. The rights to my first four novels have reverted to me and I have a three book deal with another small publisher at the moment.

I've recently dropped from FT work down to 2 days and am scribbling furiously. I've got another book finished which I hope could be the breakthrough (mind you, I say that about every book) and off the back of that have just signed with a major agent.

So, if my plans come to fruition, the new book will get a decent publisher and raise my profile. That will then generate interest in my backlist and what has been my hobby for 30 years will start to earn me a living.

Wouldn't that be nice.

 

[skip.knox]

Skip! You're back! I was getting concerned.

I was away in truth, for my wife and I spent two weeks in Paris. when I travel i leave the computer at home, only bringing my phone. Typing on the phone keyboard is just sufficiently annoying that I don't participate in forums. Hence the silence.

 

[skip.knox]

Sorry for the delay in replying Finchbearer. I plead Paris.

So, you specify trad publishing, which I don't know at all, so I guess I'll accept most any assertion. But I invite you to consider another part of what you originally posted; specifically, you might deconstruct the phrase "medieval style fantasy". What elements would create the impression? Easy answers include things like kings, a mostly agricultural society, armored and mounted warriors in service to a lord, stuff and nonsense about fealty and honor.

I suggest parsing out the elements so you can be clearer as to what you might include and what you might exclude in any given submission. It would also be worth your time to ask the entity doing the rejecting to be more explicit as to the specifics for the rejection. For example, it might be a publisher has five "medieval style fantasies" in their publication queue already and just doesn't see potential for a sixth. That doesn't mean the style has had its day generally, but only for that publisher and only for now.

Every genre and sub-genre has its day. Most of them get more than one day. You can spend much time trying to figure out how to catch the wave.

Anyway, thanks for replying.

 

[Finchbearer]

Sorry for the delay in replying Finchbearer. I plead Paris.

So, you specify trad publishing, which I don't know at all, so I guess I'll accept most any assertion. But I invite you to consider another part of what you originally posted; specifically, you might deconstruct the phrase "medieval style fantasy". What elements would create the impression? Easy answers include things like kings, a mostly agricultural society, armored and mounted warriors in service to a lord, stuff and nonsense about fealty and honor.

I suggest parsing out the elements so you can be clearer as to what you might include and what you might exclude in any given submission. It would also be worth your time to ask the entity doing the rejecting to be more explicit as to the specifics for the rejection. For example, it might be a publisher has five "medieval style fantasies" in their publication queue already and just doesn't see potential for a sixth. That doesn't mean the style has had its day generally, but only for that publisher and only for now.

Every genre and sub-genre has its day. Most of them get more than one day. You can spend much time trying to figure out how to catch the wave.

Anyway, thanks for replying.

Aside from my own York, Paris is a favourite city of mine. Pretty much the perfect time of year to go.

It’s a difficult one to define, which is why I write in the OP ‘western medieval style fantasy give or take a few thousand years, and might also be inspired by other cultures’ - or something along those lines…

I suppose it’s been quite a male dominated area of fantasy, so maybe that’s my point of difference. Who knows! I am aware you’re a medievalist, and so when I say medieval style fantasy, it’s a loose definition. But I assume we all know what it generally is. Defining it to an agent, I agree is a different skill.

 

[skip.knox]

>when I say medieval style fantasy, it’s a loose definition.
No worries there. If I fretted over definitions, I don't think I'd read anything!

I do encourage to write what feels right for you. If you write ... oh, let's say three novels ... and each of them get rejected by agents specifically because they object to the medieval setting, then maybe you consider alternatives. But until then, just write your best stuff! Let someone else do the rejecting.

 

[D. Gray Warrior]

In some ways, I think there's no winning, at least if your a Westerner/European. Don't write Medieval fantasy, because it's been done to death. Also, don't write about indigenous cultures because that's cultural appropriation. Or, if you do, make sure you walk on eggshells when doing so.

I think this is partially why steampunk and Bronze Age seem (imo) popular alternative to the standard medieval setting. The Bronze Age was long enough ago that most people aren't gonna care if you're writing about a culture different from your own. Also, a lot of literature borrows from Classical Mythology. The Bronze Age also wasn't a strictly European thing, as Bronze Age cultures also existed in Africa, Asia and the Middle East.

For Steampunk, it's still technically a European based setting, just set a few centuries later and with more advanced tech than your standard fantasy setting.

Now, these settings could still be problematic in other ways if you aren't careful.

If all else fails, you could fall back on Sword and Sorcery

 

[PudgeThePug]

Has what we describe as medieval style fantasy, or maybe ‘classic fantasy’ had its day? Is it set to become chronically overworked? Particularly since the popularity of A Song of Ice and Fire series. Are we now in that strange place where only parodies of this genre are acceptable in the wider market?

(Whilst taking into account that this style of fantasy often also takes inspiration from time periods that fall outside of the medieval period give or take a few thousand years, and is usually set in the Western European part of the world, but can be inspired by other geographical or cultural influences.)

What I find discouraging is that it’s the style I find myself most drawn to both enjoy reading and writing most of the time but it would seem to me that agents and publishers in particular are actively avoiding this genre in favour of pretty much anything that isn’t medieval inspired fantasy. What I find discouraging isn’t that I can’t simply continue enjoying writing in this genre, but more that if I want anyone to actually read it, am I on a hopeless mission?

What are people’s thoughts on this?

I’d like to discourage the answers that are broadly, ‘as long as it’s a good story it doesn’t matter the genre’ or ‘it’s context dependent’.

And without the discussion turning too politically charged, what do we think of the industry being more currently favourable to underrepresented authors and therefore stories that are not set in Western Europe? As a white European person, this also discourages me. Do I even stand a chance?

I think that the quality of story is what is scrutinized more than the setting. There are plenty of stories that I've read that COULD be considered medieval, but if you truly break it down, there tends to be more cross over than initially thought.

I am writing one of these. It does grab to the air of medieval. Probably because ancient arms and armor have a romantic realism that people can grasp onto. However, they are mere reference to what you are trying to tell. Early firearms are distinctly considered to have arrived in medieval times, so should we consider those to be in the same classification?

I think the reason many hover in this era of historical scenery is because of the rich history that you can pluck from. It could be an event that you make your own (George RR Martin did this a lot) or take the easily imagined tools and use those tools to tell an elaborate story that you've made yourself.

I guess the answer that I'm trying to give is to just write for yourself and that the traditional genre may not be as saturated as you may conclude. But if you use already-been-done tropes throughout the whole thing, it feels like reading someone elses work. It's how you use it, not what it is.

I hope this helps.

 

[Mad Swede]

In some ways, I think there's no winning, at least if your a Westerner/European. Don't write Medieval fantasy, because it's been done to death. Also, don't write about indigenous cultures because that's cultural appropriation. Or, if you do, make sure you walk on eggshells when doing so.

I think this is partially why steampunk and Bronze Age seem (imo) popular alternative to the standard medieval setting. The Bronze Age was long enough ago that most people aren't gonna care if you're writing about a culture different from your own. Also, a lot of literature borrows from Classical Mythology. The Bronze Age also wasn't a strictly European thing, as Bronze Age cultures also existed in Africa, Asia and the Middle East.

For Steampunk, it's still technically a European based setting, just set a few centuries later and with more advanced tech than your standard fantasy setting.

Now, these settings could still be problematic in other ways if you aren't careful.

If all else fails, you could fall back on Sword and Sorcery

I must have missed something here, Sinced when has the medieval period been confined to Western Europe? And what do you mean by medieval? Here in Sweden historians use the term Iron Age to cover the period 500BC to 1050AD, which includes what some other historians term the Early Medieval period. Thinking about the medieval period in terms of Western Europe means disregarding what was happening in the Byzantine Empire and on the Arabian Peninsula and in North Africa, events which had a profound impact on medieval Europe and on the rest of the world. Not to mention trade with countries further east, bringing back (as an example) the knowledge and methods to make better steel swords (i.e. ulfbehrt swords). So maybe we should think a little more widely when we write a story set in what we think (or intend) to be a medieval style setting?

 

[D. Gray Warrior]

I must have missed something here, Sinced when has the medieval period been confined to Western Europe? And what do you mean by medieval? Here in Sweden historians use the term Iron Age to cover the period 500BC to 1050AD, which includes what some other historians term the Early Medieval period. Thinking about the medieval period in terms of Western Europe means disregarding what was happening in the Byzantine Empire and on the Arabian Peninsula and in North Africa, events which had a profound impact on medieval Europe and on the rest of the world. Not to mention trade with countries further east, bringing back (as an example) the knowledge and methods to make better steel swords (i.e. ulfbehrt swords). So maybe we should think a little more widely when we write a story set in what we think (or intend) to be a medieval style setting?

Yes. I just meant most mainstream fantasy assumes a Western European culture and aesthetic, at least in the minds of your average person.

Or, I guess, western and Northern Europe combined. Personally, the Witcher is the only example I've seen of a Slavic inspired setting.

Though, I do wonder if Medieval fantasy is even plausible without its own fictional counterparts to the Roman Empire, Catholic and Orthodox Churches, HRE, and the Middle East.

 

[Mad Swede]

Yes. I just meant most mainstream fantasy assumes a Western European culture and aesthetic, at least in the minds of your average person.

Or, I guess, western and Northern Europe combined. Personally, the Witcher is the only example I've seen of a Slavic inspired setting.

Though, I do wonder if Medieval fantasy is even plausible without its own fictional counterparts to the Roman Empire, Catholic and Orthodox Churches, HRE, and the Middle East.

Anyone who thinks that mainstream fantasy assumes a western European culture and aesthetic hasn't read enough.

For a Byzantine style (and hence medieval style) setting, how about Harry Turtledove's Videssos Cycle or Guy Gavriel Kay's Sarantine Mosaic series?

For a Saxon/Viking (and hence early medieval) setting, try Bernard Cornwell's The Last Kingdom. Best of all, read Frans Bengtsson's The Long Ships (sadly the English translation loses one of the funniest scenes in the books, where the Gods discuss what humans eat).

For a medieval setting with a difference, read Sigrid Undset's trilogy Kristin Lavransdatter, set in 14th century Norway.

And for something a little more esoteric try to find a copy of Rider Haggard's Eric Brighteyes, a story about a Norse character written in the style of the Icelandic sagas.

 

[pmmg]

Anyone who thinks that mainstream fantasy assumes a western European culture and aesthetic hasn't read enough.

That may be, but plenty of people think of fantasy as a feudal western European culture. I think that is more common than not.

 

[casval]

I feel like the trappings of 'medieval' fantasy have made themselves staples in all sorts of non-medieval fantasy settings, so there's always a taste of it in the genre. My niblings are all into Dungeon Crawler Carl, which I believe is technically more science fiction but the characters are encountering giant spiders, orcs, etc. so the feeling of medieval fantasy is there even in a story that seems closer to The Running Man than The Princess Bride.

(Not that orcs or giant spiders are 'medieval' either, but they've entered the genre by way of Lord of the Rings. Or perhaps more accurately, by way of the LotR-inspired Dungeons & Dragons. Or perhaps even more accurately, by way of the D&D-based Baldur's Gate games, or perhaps even by the Baldur's Gate and Wizardry-inspired anime like Delicious in Dungeon. Still, it's six degrees of separation from 'medieval fantasy' and it still somehow has orcs.)

Still, those Game of Thrones spinoff shows still seem hot and they're making a Fellowship of the Ring midquel (for some reason?) so I think medieval fantasy will always have its fans and a safe place in the genre. No use writing a book trying to catch what the publishing trends favor, it'll be different by the time you've finished it anyway.

 

[skip.knox]

This one sets my historian's teeth to itching every time. I reckon I can scratch, once in a while.

Place is one; Mad Swede has mentioned it. Are we talking Spain? Greece? Denmark? Hey everyone, let's go to Livonia! (I'm old school enough to insist that medieval only applies to Europe and its borderlands; all else is just a coincidence of time)

Time is another. Is your image of the Middle Ages set in 1500? In 1100? In 700?

I'll lay pretty good odds that, for most people, "medieval" means late medieval England, full stop. I'll go further and say the usual image has a very skewed notion of how kingship worked, how religion worked, how economics worked and, well, how just about anything worked.

So, what exactly has had its day? If you propose that Tudor-era with modern stereotypes overlaid then, yeah, it's had its day with me. Add to that 17thc Scotland for romantasy, and Arthurian Britain running a close third. All on the British Isles, you will note. I'm not at all tired of Norman Sicily or 15thc Bohemia or ... well, you get the idea. There's so much variety over a span of a thousand years and an entire continent, it borders on shameful that so many hear "medieval" and see something in the neighborhood of A Knight's Tale. Or *shudder* Braveheart.

Anyway, if you're looking to do a "medieval" story, you might try digging a bit. Take a look at Germany, for example (which really means Bavaria or Saxony or Mecklenburg or any of a dozen other principalities). France isn't France, it's Brittany or Gascony or Burgundy or Foix, and they're all different. Italy is even more so.

The Swede mentioned Guy Gavriel Kay. He can provide excellent examples of how to make use of non-British settings. Dorothy Dunnett for another.

OK, I feel better now.

 

[Gurkhal]

Yes. I just meant most mainstream fantasy assumes a Western European culture and aesthetic, at least in the minds of your average person.

Or, I guess, western and Northern Europe combined. Personally, the Witcher is the only example I've seen of a Slavic inspired setting.

Though, I do wonder if Medieval fantasy is even plausible without its own fictional counterparts to the Roman Empire, Catholic and Orthodox Churches, HRE, and the Middle East.

To me it depends on how realistic you want it to be. If you want me to buy into a society which is obviously formed by the influences of not!Christian teachings and churches, of a warrior aristocracy in a feudal manner and so on. These needs to be there and have an influence.

If these are not there I will not have much immersion. Same with for example the Roman Empire. If you want to run it close to the real thing, you should provide for the reasons it developed the way it did. Like official abhorrence of monarchy and veiling their own monarchy behind republican rhetoric but also that this republican legacy shapes the monarchy to be different than what we might call monarchy in Germanic, Celtic and Slavic medieval Europe.

And so on.

The story can still be good and I can still enjoy it, but I'm not going to care overly much about the society since it will feel so very artificial to me.

 

[skip.knox]

Guy Gavriel Kay wrote one called Children of Earth and Sky which takes place in Venice, aboard ships, and in the Balkans (sorry, my memory won't let me be more specific). Not much feudalism there, but it's a great tale. His Lions of al-Rassan is clearly Moorish Spain. I'd place both in roughly 12thc or 13thc but with a century or two on either side. I do think there's room to break the mold. At the same time, any author doing so is going to be swimming upstream against the flow of popular understandings.

 

[casval]

Guy Gavriel Kay is a great writer of these more grounded-in-history settings, though at times I almost wish he'd just write his stories into history instead of always doing the "no no, this is not Dubrovnik, this is Dubrova" bit. The Isle of Glass by Judith Tarr had high fantasy creatures like elves but was set during the Fourth Crusade and if I recall correctly is initially set in Glastonbury, with the protagonist taking a pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

But I'm not bothered by wildly inaccurate medieval fantasy as long as the author isn't pretending otherwise. It does tick off the medievalist in me when someone advertises their 'accuracy' and it is full of tedious misconceptions. Especially about the economy. Economics is not the strong suit of many fantasy writers.

 

[Gurkhal]

Maybe "realistic" wasn't the best word. Perhaps "believable" would have been better.