Hidden Cities

[pmmg]

In relation to map making, and including in the front of the book. Suppose your story involves stuff that is lost, like a lost city. Would you include it in the map? Or, would you let it remain lost?

 

[ThinkerX]

I touch upon this in 'Labyrinth War.' The southern hemisphere of that world is (perceived) as an endless expanse of plains roamed by the 'hundred nations,' barbarian tribes of differing races. Rumors abound of city-states and petty fiefs hidden in this expanse (two appear in the book,) but these are at the 'edge of the map' - or beyond it. (I included a 'trade map of the Southern Ocean' in Labyrinth War.')

 

[skip.knox]

Remain lost.
But you can hedge that a bit, as per ThinkerX. Another approach would be to mislabel it or to label a whole area also containing the lost city as "unknown". It all depends on what you mean to do in the story. If this is Finding the Lost City, then definitely label the whole area as speculative. The reader might learn that the unknown lands lie to the east, but no more than that. But if the lost city is just background or remains legendary, there's no harm in putting a point on the map and calling it "Lost City?" and leave it at that.

 

[JBCrowson]

In relation to map making, and including in the front of the book. Suppose your story involves stuff that is lost, like a lost city. Would you include it in the map? Or, would you let it remain lost?

To whom is it lost - presumably not those who live there. I'm not trying to be facetious, what I mean is in what way is the city lost to the main characters? Do they know there is an Atlantis out there somewhere? Are there folktales or myths of it, or are there people from this place who made an arduous journey across a desert / waste / mountains / oceans or whatever and speak of it to the main characters? Do your main characters set out to find it? All of these factors will affect whether you mark it on the map. You could think of it like whether or not to name a character - are they important enough to the story to warrant a name, is this place important enough to be on the map.
Another option is to put a date on the map - "British Military map of North Africa c. 1941" sort of thing. Then you have a reason to exclude the city if whoever is meant to have drawn the map wouldn't have known about the city in question, or it wouldn't have been important for the purpose the map was drawn.

 

[ThinkerX]

You do have to ask -

'Why are these cities lost or hidden?'

The two big reasons are -

Protection - the inhabitants have enemies they need to hide or protect themselves from.

The inhabitants are malevolent, using the city as a hidden redoubt to prey upon their neighbors.

Secondary possibilities are -

New arrivals - the city was founded by folks from far away and is not so much 'hidden' as 'very recently founded.'

Cult/Trial Center - the city is a religious retreat; those wishing to advance in the cult must undergo trials and special training - and one of those trials is just finding/reaching the city.

 

[pmmg]

In my own circumstance, why is it hidden...

Two reasons, one being just by natural causes, it fell into disuse, the world declined, less and less people had need to visit or travel to, eventually if fell into ruin, and all the people left. Spin the clock 1000 years, and no one remembers it was there. Second being, there were some who actively wished for it to be forgotten quite a long while back, with some success, they helped cause it.

The question is one of, suppose the reader would really like to know where it was. The opening map does not show it, cause its lost....no one making the map would know to include it, but the map is partly for immersion, and partly as an aid to the reader.

Some solutions, I can think of, add a more complete map at the back of the book, showing the stuff after its been discovered. Showing a portion of the map on some page in the book after its been discovered. Showing it up front and letting the reader get that its not the map as the characters know it. And last, maybe adding it on the website, and say...go there if you want to know. Or, of course, just leave it hidden.

But the question is not just for me, many people probably encounter this same issue. What to do with your map, and stuff that is not known on it?

 

[DesinKalaScribe]

Do you envision future volumes of this work, or is this all self contained in one entry? With multiple installments, you can use the "incomplete map" and keep the lost city excluded. And then in future installments, you can have an updated version of the map that then includes the now rediscovered city. You can even get really fun with it and make it look as if it's been hand-updated by the characters themselves with different notations and marks. You could also show different updates to the map over time with each installation if there is more exploration that happens in the future.

If it's a one-shot, I'd just use the map without the lost city. It could lessen the narrative impact of discovering the city and the reasons why it became lost if you include it in the map. If you do a good job describing where they found the lost city, your readers will be able to identify it on the map.

 

[Avery Moore]

In relation to map making, and including in the front of the book. Suppose your story involves stuff that is lost, like a lost city. Would you include it in the map? Or, would you let it remain lost?

Oooh! Interesting question. I think I would probably go with remain lost, because my thinking would be, the map would've been drawn by a cartographer who was around at the time. And the cartographer wouldn't know where the lost city is, so...

 

[pmmg]

Well...I did look at the map an immersive tool, in that, Its drawn in a way that might be in the hands of a character, but...there is no indication that anyone drew it. IE, its not a direct map from the story. There is no obvious author of the tale, (like with Bilbo), and no obvious creator of the map. So, it does fall somewhat close to being a reader aid more than a story element.

There are three elements in the map, that could be shown...a hidden city, a set of passes through the mountain, and a swamp that could be labelled, but.... the city is hidden for most of the story. The Passes would require zooming in, cause the scale of the map does not allow for such detail, and to label the swamp with a readable font takes up too much map space. Since I don't really label individual mountains, or trees, why do a swamp? It using a different, more swampy, symbol anyway.

 

[Fidel]

In relation to map making, and including in the front of the book. Suppose your story involves stuff that is lost, like a lost city. Would you include it in the map? Or, would you let it remain lost?

Ooh, tricky! I’d say keep it off the map, let the mystery stay mysterious. Maybe hint at its location with vague landmarks or legends, but leave readers guessing. After all, some things are more fun when they’re lost.

 

[Dylan]

Do you envision future volumes of this work, or is this all self contained in one entry? With multiple installments, you can use the "incomplete map" and keep the lost city excluded. And then in future installments, you can have an updated version of the map that then includes the now rediscovered city. You can even get really fun with it and make it look as if it's been hand-updated by the characters themselves with different notations and marks. You could also show different updates to the map over time with each installation if there is more exploration that happens in the future.

If it's a one-shot, I'd just use the map without the lost city. It could lessen the narrative impact of discovering the city and the reasons why it became lost if you include it in the map. If you do a good job describing where they found the lost city, your readers will be able to identify it on the map.

If you’re planning future volumes, the “incomplete map” idea is brilliant, it adds layers of discovery and makes the world feel alive. Hand updated maps with character notes would be such a cool touch. For a one-shot, though leaving the lost city off the map keeps the mystery intact and makes the reveal more impactful. Either way, it’s all about balancing intrigue and immersion. Love the creativity here!

 

[pmmg]

I think what I am going to do with this is leave it hidden (ie, not included on the map). I will put a more complete map on the website if any cares to go and look.... Near as I can tell, no one visits the web site, so... I am not in a hurry

The map does grow over time, and newer books show more or different detail. But...you know, the map gets crowded and putting little names on everything makes them hard to read. Its also takes a bit to make them look like quality. Its a work in progress.

 

[Rexenm]

Did the lost city have a lost language? The topographical answer is yes, you should include it on the map. Because if it has relation to the artistic style, it can be used as reference. If the city has an ancient demise, then you could include an ancient creature, such as sea serpent, to represent it.

A certain style of mystery, is to have the demise of an ancient civilisation, that is also to include lost technology in its makeup. I for one have a lost city, that was overgrown with fungi. It wasn’t nuclear war, it wasn’t narcotics.

If you don’t include the lost city on the map, you could have a dot point explaining this, even if it is written in a lost language, or included separate, within an alternative timeline.

 

[Prince of Spires]

It's an interesting discussion between the map being an in-world creation vs the map being there just for the readers.

One thing to keep in mind is that, if you're writing medieval-esque fantasy, then your map won't be an accurate in-world creation in most cases. Most maps of that era didn't give the accurate depictions of the world we see in many fantasy books. Especially not if they're continent or even world-spanning maps. Older maps don't give correct shapes of landmasses or places.

I personally think that you always create the map for the reader first. The question then becomes, is it a mystery for the reader where the hidden city is or not? If you want it to be a mystery for the reader, then don't put it on there. If it doesn't matter then put it on there.

And of course you could give them 2 versions of your map. One at the start without the city, and one when the location is revealed with the city.

 

[Mad Swede]

Of course, what you could do is have the map develop as the reader gets further into the book and the characters find out more about their own world. One (childrens) example would be Arthur Ransome's book Secret Water, where the reader is presented with a series of maps as the book goes on, each adding more detail to the setting as the characters explore.

 

[Stephen Baxter]

It's an interesting discussion between the map being an in-world creation vs the map being there just for the readers.

One thing to keep in mind is that, if you're writing medieval-esque fantasy, then your map won't be an accurate in-world creation in most cases. Most maps of that era didn't give the accurate depictions of the world we see in many fantasy books. Especially not if they're continent or even world-spanning maps. Older maps don't give correct shapes of landmasses or places.

I personally think that you always create the map for the reader first. The question then becomes, is it a mystery for the reader where the hidden city is or not? If you want it to be a mystery for the reader, then don't put it on there. If it doesn't matter then put it on there.

And of course you could give them 2 versions of your map. One at the start without the city, and one when the location is revealed with the city.

That’s a very practical way to approach it. In my own work, particularly when dealing with alternate histories or deep-time narratives, maps serve as both a tool for the reader and an artifact of the world itself. But I agree that in most medieval-esque settings, maps shouldn’t be assumed to be accurate in a modern sense.

In fact, a lot of pre-modern maps were as much mythic or political statements as they were practical tools. If your world’s cartographers don’t have aerial surveys or precise measuring techniques, then their maps would likely be distorted by the biases and limitations of their time, overemphasizing important cities, distorting distances, or even including outright fabrications.

So if you're writing a story where the map exists in-world, it could reflect what the people of that world believe to be true rather than objective fact. That can be a great tool for storytelling. You might even use shifting maps to reflect different perspectives, what a nation believes its borders to be vs. what a rival believes, or how a city appears on some maps but is omitted from others.

But if the map is primarily for the reader’s benefit, then clarity is the main concern. I like the idea of having two versions, one for setting the stage and another for the reveal. That way, the map serves the story rather than spoiling it.

 

[Rexenm]

Is it a hand drawn map or a generated image? There are a lot of different approaches when dealing with research. As far as I know, most things are copy-righted. That means you can’t go around stealing it. You have to put it on the map.

That is not to say it hasn’t been done before. Or that it will happen again. I know there are modern solutions for it. There are subgroups, categories, denominations. It is the rule of law.