Historical research- Norse mythology and Tolkien

[TheokinsJ]

Hi guys, at the moment I am writing a fantasy novel based around the style/era of the norse people (Vikings) and I've been going through a lot of old poems such as Beowulf and The story of the Volsungs and I came across a lot of things that were very similar to the Lord of the Rings. For starters in Norse mythology the Nords called the realm of men "Middle Earth", and their culture was basically the culture that invented the myths and legends about orcs, elves and dwarves. There is also a norse tale about a sword that was broken, and the pieces were forged to create a new sword (sounds like Isuldur's sword?) and a dragon that guarded a hoard of treasure that a company of companions were trying to retrieve as it was their's by right (Again, sound familiar?). I could go on forever about the similarities between Tolkien's work and Norse history.

I guess history is where the most inspiration comes from for a fantasy writer, and I guess I'm just wondering are all great plots taken from history like Tolkien's? I mean, if authors used nothing but history for their plots and ideas, there'd be nothing left for the future generations of writers to draw on for inspiration without someone saying "That's been done before, it's cliché". All too often I hear people saying about books such as Eragon, "It's a copy of the Lord of the Rings because it has Elves and Dwarves". No it's not. Tolkien didn't invent elves or dwarves, the idea was around thousands of years before he used it, and yet it is now a feature that is associated totally with him, and anyone else who uses them is frowned upon by other people. I guess the same could be said about other things, but I find it annoying that the ideas that I come up with have already done before. I mean I read these poems and do research and find some really interesting stuff- only to find someone has beaten me to it and written a book with a plot line that mirrored that of history.
Where do you look when doing historical research? Do you look at old manuscripts and poems? Do you search history related to the time in your story? (If you are writing medieval fantasy, will you look back further into ancient times to find inspiration as well?). I want to try to find a bit of history untouched by authors and writers, a bit that I can read and gain ideas from that haven't been done before- but I guess that's a big ask. Bit of a long read, not really sure where this should have been posted because it was a half discussion/opinion and half question/suggestions, but who cares, thanks for reading!

 

[Alexandra]

I want to try to find a bit of history untouched by authors and writers, a bit that I can read and gain ideas from that haven't been done before- but I guess that's a big ask.

A big ask?... yes. Also likely a contradiction. As soon as someone writes about an event a spin/slant/view et al is applied to the record. Tis inevitable.

 

[Filk]

First of all, Tolkien was a Norse scholar and the similarities between his works and Norse mythology are many indeed.

Second of all, everything has already been written. Trying to be original is a moot point. You can tell a story with your style and inflections, but it is more than likely a tale that has already been told. Don't worry so much about "copying' others; just write and if your work is entirely too similar to another author's then you can do some minor tweaking in the editing process.

In terms of research, I have focused mostly on Europe during 400-1600 CE. I have also brushed up on Campbell's idea of the monomyth, which is fascinating. There is still so much I have yet to read in that era, but I am now interested in delving into the Ancient Greek, Roman, and Arabic worlds. I plan on doing research my entire life though; I think that learning is one of the coolest things about writing. Sometimes my desire to research prevents me from getting much written, but oh well haha. Anyway, most things dealing with history, religion, philosophy, and psychology interest me and there is plenty of material to be had in those fields.

 

[Anders Ämting]

Hi guys, at the moment I am writing a fantasy novel based around the style/era of the norse people (Vikings) and I've been going through a lot of old poems such as Beowulf and The story of the Volsungs and I came across a lot of things that were very similar to the Lord of the Rings. For starters in Norse mythology the Nords called the realm of men "Middle Earth", and their culture was basically the culture that invented the myths and legends about orcs, elves and dwarves. There is also a norse tale about a sword that was broken, and the pieces were forged to create a new sword (sounds like Isuldur's sword?) and a dragon that guarded a hoard of treasure that a company of companions were trying to retrieve as it was their's by right (Again, sound familiar?). I could go on forever about the similarities between Tolkien's work and Norse history.

Well, that was kinda Tolkien's intention all long: To create a kind of British mythology based on the Norse and Germanic mythologies. The whole "write an absurdly influential trilogy that changes literature forever" thing was almost an accidental side effect.

I guess history is where the most inspiration comes from for a fantasy writer,

I think you mean mythology rather than history. And I wouldn't say that's entirely correct.

Rather, I would say that fantasy originally was and to some degree still is "storytelling with a mythological motif". Though, personally, I get much more inspiration from other fantasy stories than I do from mythology.

Stephen King wrote a huge fantasy series inpsired by spagetthi westerns, based on the argument that spagetthi westerns actually use mythological narratives - the heroes and villains, the good and the bad and the ugly, are essentially gods. And while normal people may interact with them, the business of the gods are their business alone. The writers of Pirates of the Caribbean used the same line of thinking, making Jack Sparrow essentially a trickster archetype.

and I guess I'm just wondering are all great plots taken from history like Tolkien's? I mean, if authors used nothing but history for their plots and ideas, there'd be nothing left for the future generations of writers to draw on for inspiration without someone saying "That's been done before, it's cliché".

Well, that's the way the glue sticks, isn't it?

First thing you should accept if you want to be a writer is that all stories are inspired by other stories. You cannot create something out of nothing, even ideas. That is the realm of God alone.

Only very ignorant people think everything that isn't 100% new is a cliché. To begin with, the obsession with originality is a pretty modern notion, probably only going as far back as the first copyright laws of the 18th century.

All too often I hear people saying about books such as Eragon, "It's a copy of the Lord of the Rings because it has Elves and Dwarves". No it's not. Tolkien didn't invent elves or dwarves, the idea was around thousands of years before he used it, and yet it is now a feature that is associated totally with him, and anyone else who uses them is frowned upon by other people.

See, what they are basically saying is: "If you are going to use elves and dwarves you should try to do something unusual or interesting with them, not just turn them into Gimli and Legolas all over again."

We must remember that literary elements are shaped like clay, not stacked on each other like stones. And "elf" is whatever you decide it to be. So when someone complains that a book copied the elves and dwarves from Tolkien, what they are complaining about is a lack of creative vision, not a lack of original concepts.

Or, okay, some people are complaining about the lack of original concepts. But those people are stupid.

I guess the same could be said about other things, but I find it annoying that the ideas that I come up with have already done before. I mean I read these poems and do research and find some really interesting stuff- only to find someone has beaten me to it and written a book with a plot line that mirrored that of history.

That's not something you are supposed to feel bad about, though. We are talking about narrative archetypes. It's by definition something you copy and modify when writing your own narrative. If you are writing about norse mythology, it is generally presumed that you are doing it because you have found a story in norse mythology that you want to tell, or because you are trying to give your story a particular norse kind of flavor. Not because you are trying to come up with something completely new.

Anyway, it sounds to me like you are being too fixated on the most superficial part of writing: The story is based on norse mythology and that's pretty much all it has going. There's a lot more to writing than that, though. There's themes and motifs and narrative structure and a whole lot of other things.

Once you accept that you simply can't get ideas that aren't derived from something else, distinguishing yourself as a writer is actually not that hard, because every human mind is different and thus tells stories differently. It's mostly just a matter of practice, I think.

Example: My brother is actually working on a comic book based on Norse mythology. It has all of the usual stuff: Odin, giants, a tree called Yggdrasil, a dragon called Nidhugg and so on. And it's utterly different from anything I have ever seen before. Because rather than wasting energy trying to make something completely unique, he looked at Norse mythology and thought: "Hey, I can use this stuff to make something cool!"

Where do you look when doing historical research? Do you look at old manuscripts and poems? Do you search history related to the time in your story? (If you are writing medieval fantasy, will you look back further into ancient times to find inspiration as well?).

Currently I'm working on an urban fantasy concept flavored by Arthurian legend, but the Arthurian stuff honestly doesn't have much to do with the plot.

Mostly, I look at stories that I like - not just fantasy but anything I really like - and ask myself: "What do I really like about this story, once you get down to the basics, and how can I work that into a story of my own?"

I want to try to find a bit of history untouched by authors and writers, a bit that I can read and gain ideas from that haven't been done before- but I guess that's a big ask.

Your best bet is probably to go for obscure combinations. Like, for example, taking Native American mythology and applying it to a medieval European setting.

 

[Fargoer]

I've just published a novel that takes place during the Viking Age (with fantasy elements involved). My base is in the Finnish mythologies (Finno-Ugric to be precise) as it is my own cultural heritage. Kalevala is a huge inspiration. Parts of the novel involve Vikings and their myths as well.

However, my plot takes me out to the world next and I must start to hit the books seriously so I can write it out, as I want to have as much historical background correct as is possible. For me, I have noticed, reading historical fiction that is set in the era you wish to explore works best, it is both fun and informative at the same time. In addition some mythology so I can create fantasy elements based on the original mythology of the people involved.

As others said, it is probably impossible to find something that is not touched at all. Writers have been hitting letters after letters for so long that almost everything must have been covered somewhere, somehow. But I guess new combinations, fresh ideas regarding old settings could be possible.

Petteri

 

[Lycan999]

I would just like to set one thing straight. When you say that Norse culture invented orcs, that is not true. Orcs were an entirely Tolkien creation, loosely based on other creatures from the Norse world but you will never be able to find the word orc being used before Tolkein created them. That is why the computer will always say that orc is a misspelled word, even here. Also, another word Tolkein created that you may not have known was dwarves. Until then the proper terms was dwarfs (and still is acceptable), but Tolkein decided dwarves went better with elves.

 

[Scribe Lord]

Firstly I can guarantee that there is not a single modern fantasy book out there that does not take things from others. In fact it's physically impossible. You are always going to be able to draw connections.

On to Tolkien. Firstly, it's not like he just copied and pasted Norse mythology and gave it a new title. Sure, he based his story off of it (As someone said that was kind of his intention in the first place) but he changed many things, invented new things, heck the guy devised whole new languages, history, culture, etc. for all of his races. He redefined Fantasy and made it very popular.

You can take ideas from history but it's how you use them that matters. Don't just Copy and Paste. Twist a thing here and there. Who knows? Maybe it will turn out to be a masterpiece.