How can it get any WORSE?

[Sheilawisz]

A good story needs to have obstacles and hurdles indeed, but adding as many of them as possible is a very bad idea.

If your story already works well with what you have, keep it going like that. Something new can show up eventually when the moment comes, and this is part of the natural evolution of a story. Sometimes characters will do things that you were not expecting to do, sometimes a new character just shows up when you least expected him or her and the story can take a twist that will surprise you.

A story must be what it is, because they are living creatures and not a chemistry experiment.

About Game of Thrones: There are many people that like the series because of the great acting, incredible locations and beautiful costume design, and also it's a very interesting world... But I bet that if they removed all of the medieval porn, gore and incredible breasts seen so often then the series would lose a great deal of its audience.

Recently the actress that plays Daenerys complained that she wanted to be admired for her acting instead of her body, and some fan replied that it's not because of her acting that they watch her.

 

[Chessie]

I don't know. Think of the many ways a court trial can go bad for either side. Add to that personal problems, like maybe an elderly parent having a stroke, requiring the MC to focus on that as well as leading the prosecution or defense in the trial. Life is not simple, nor is it perfectly smooth sailing, in my experience. Even the happiest people in the world will probably have relatives or friends who are not happy, or will notice that other parts of the world are filled with tragedy and may feel compelled to do something about what they see.

Yes, but these sorts of events should directly tie into your plot and be associated with theme and character. Every event in a story must be tied into the character's growth.

 

[FifthView]

Yes, but these sorts of events should directly tie into your plot and be associated with theme and character. Every event in a story must be tied into the character's growth.

Has anyone suggested otherwise?

 

[Russ]

Making it worse is actually excellent advice, if you understand it and apply it well.

Donald Maass does and I think HT is on the right track.

"Make it worse" is shorthand for "increase the tension on characters that your readers will care about."

Now it has to be subtle and there are variations, you simply cannot turn up the tension every scene with a huge wrench, but the tension and thus trouble for the protagonists must grow progressively as the tale goes on if you want the readers to be remain invested.

Now it does not mean that you need to add in extraneous elements or problems/perils that don't fit your story. They would only be distractions.

If your story, at its heart is about a conflict between your protagonist and A than the increase in trouble would look like this:

P vs. A A A A A A A etc.

If there were multiple threats, problems etc in your story it could look like this:

P vs. a, b, A, B, b, C, A, B, A etc

But overall the tension, or problems, must keep increasing towards the climax. One way of expressing that idea is to say "make it worse for your characters".

That advise takes many forms in different genres or circles but it really remains the same. Some people say "put your character up a tree and throw stones at them." In the Thriller world they joke "If things are slowing down just have someone come into the room with a gun." but the message is the same.

Stephen James (who has a graduate degree in storytelling) suggests that with rare exceptions the tension at the end of each chapter should be higher than at the beginning of that chapter. Thus the purpose of each chapter is to increase tension.

Now not everybody wants or needs this advice. Some people have stories pop into their head fully formed, or take a very organic, almost spiritual road to writing and it just flows on out. But if you are inclined to think about how story works or how a book can be made better, I think this is an important concept to understand, and is really top notch advice to follow.

Now, as I said, some people don't need or want advice on writing, for various reasons and I respect those folks and they should just flow on by discussions like this. But for people seeking advice on how to construct better stories I suggest this advice is gold and they should take it to the bank.

 

[Heliotrope]

Yeah, I don't mean tight little bows as in everyone is happy. I mean like someone learns something at the end. A moral to the story. Something that says "this was the whole point of all that".

 

[Chessie]

Has anyone suggested otherwise?

No. I was just simply clarifying for clarity's sake.

 

[Chessie]

Making it worse is actually excellent advice, if you understand it and apply it well.


Now not everybody wants or needs this advice. Some people have stories pop into their head fully formed, or take a very organic, almost spiritual road to writing and it just flows on out. But if you are inclined to think about how story works or how a book can be made better, I think this is an important concept to understand, and is really top notch advice to follow.

Damn it. After this I really have to go. But YES. Yes. I do see Sheila's point as a valid one though. Since I'm not in her head I can only interpret it on a personal level: don't make things worse just for the sake of it.

When I first heard the advice to make things worse, I stupidly did just that.

However, because I love to learn about writing, I read countless of articles and books from various authors, watched youtube videos, learned from my peers how this was done. It clicked one day and although I struggle with it still, it's easier today than it was a year or so ago.

Now, I've only heard Maas and Martin as names on this thread. I encourage everyone here to learn from other authors as well! These aren't the only people giving advice out there. One awesome, awesome book I recommend is The Anatomy Of Story by John Truby. He has videos, too, and explains this concept so darn well.

In all, continuing education on story structure is so important. Readers want to see the characters try and fail, try and fail, try and get pissed but still fail, try and finally succeed. The emotional roller coaster is what they want no matter what they say.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Following this advice can result in an artificial story that gets too complex too soon, an overwhelmed storyteller and a serious Writer's Block that you would have difficulty to escape from.

In case that you find your current story or plot too weak or boring, you can follow this other advice instead: Try to find a new twist, a new challenge for the protagonist or a new character that will make things more interesting, and leave it like that while you wait to see how the story responds and how things develop.

Never be impatient, allow your story enough time to grow and show itself properly.

You should not add more layers of complexity hoping that all of those new things will somehow combine well and produce a good result, because said result could be good indeed but also it could lead you to a mess.

Not everything in Storytelling is about conflict and tension.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Okay, so when I said "make it worse" I simply meant that I was inspired by the way I WANTED one thing from Martin. I wanted Robb to win, I wanted Arya to get home to her loving family. I wanted Tyrion to win his trial. I wanted the prince to get his revenge. And all that was taken from me. And I was pissed at first, but then I saw the door cracked open ion the other side of those plots. That's all I meant. Don't make that love story so easy, make the people work for it a little more than they already do. Make your character not just suspicious that someone's following her, but make her downright terrified that they are, give her a reason to be really scared.

Yeah, I'm not advocating sex, violence, or death as the MAKE IT WORSE hat trick, I'm just saying that the FEELINGS I felt when I was denied the things I wanted to see happen had a deep and lasting impact on my being. I had to sort of get over something like it was my own tragedy. And that's the kind of thing that sticks with a reader for years.

Here's my own "make it worse" list for today:

Originally, I had a friend who sent my MC a letter, trying to warn her that someone was coming after her. Now, I'm going to have that friend sell her out to the guy who is coming after her. Nothing else changes form the original actual plot happenings, but I made it a little more emotional, a little more real. I made it worse.

Originally, I show the MC with her teenage ward, and they have a sweet, almost sisterly relationship. I'm going to make that worse, too. The girl is growing up and she's interested in some of the men around the place, and the MC is going to give her a harsh dose of reality about the "two kinds of men in this world" right in the beginning. I'm going to not only set up their relationship as one of motherly concern mixed with master/ servant sort of dynamics, but also I'm using that scene to set up the reason my MC isn't a woman out looking for love. I want to show her as a bitter person who sometimes has mean thoughts. I suppose I COULD just have them talk and have her say she's bitter and the girl better watch out for her safety, or I can have her drag the girl into the room, slam the door, and berate her a little, with coarse language and concepts that will make both male and female readers uncomfortable. Boom, made it worse. Increased impact and tension.

OMG, I can't wait to write that last one! Gotta get back to it.

SO yeah, no one getting flayed or broken on a wheel just for shock value. Just some character drama.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I don't have a ton of time for a reply, but I will say I agree with the "make it worse" advice.

Few people want to read Village of the Happy People. No. Hard lives and bad decisions make the best stories. We get to experience events through characters in situations we'd naturally strive to avoid.

If a character is in a bad spot, you can make it get worse, making them long for the days they once thought were bad. Or, you can give a character what they think they want, where achievement of the goal actually makes matters worse. There are a multitude of other options along this lie of thought.

However, it's important to understand that these harsh events and experiences aren't calamity for calamity's sake. They are a crucible. They force our character to change, to become something more, someone different, & in the end, grow to a resolution.

 

[Russ]

Following this advice can result in an artificial story that gets too complex too soon, an overwhelmed storyteller and a serious Writer's Block that you would have difficulty to escape from.

I am not sure your critique is being fair to the idea being expressed.

Your approach of saying this advice can lead to bad outcomes has some assumptions in it, one of which is that the writer following it is a bit of an idiot. The outcomes you fear are only likely if one mishandles the tool.

Allow me an analogy. A carpenter says you can build this table using a hammer and nails.

To which some replies "That is stupid advice. If could break your thumb with the hammer, put a nail in your eye and smash three windows." Well sure that is possible, but only if you grossly mishandle the tool.

I would suggest that this tool is more likely to help solve Writer's Block than create it. If you reach a point in your plot where you don't know where you should go next one way to find a path ahead is to say "How do I increase tension or how do I make this worse for my characters?"

In case that you find your current story or plot too weak or boring, you can follow this other advice instead: Try to find a new twist, a new challenge for the protagonist or a new character that will make things more interesting, and leave it like that while you wait to see how the story responds and how things develop.

Isn't adding a new challenge or a twist really increasing tension?

You should not add more layers of complexity hoping that all of those new things will somehow combine well and produce a good result, because said result could be good indeed but also it could lead you to a mess.

Not everything in Storytelling is about conflict and tension.

Two things, firstly nobody has suggested anything like what you express in this quote. That is the equivilent of using the hammer on your thumb instead of your nail. To some degree when giving advice we have to assume the person receiving it can use the tool with some competence.

Secondly, and honestly, do you not agree that overall, the conflict, tension or trouble for the protagonist have to increase as the story builds to its climax for the story to be effective?

 

[Caged Maiden]

Ooh, another Make it Worse movie that has no death in it is Interstellar. OMG, the moment they landed on that planet and KNEW they had just lost EIGHT YEARS!!! It broke my heart! Made it worse, but not GRRM-style. So yeah, don't think I'm being simple or literal in that one example as the ONLY one. I merely mentioned because this is one of the first times I've REALLY FELT the impact of having my victory snatched away, and loving it. I mean, I've read books that just take away the victory, but they feel like they laugh in my face, making me distrust them. Martin took the wind from my sails over and over again, yet here I am, coming back for more, because there is still light at the end of the tunnel. I'm cheering for a new character now, I'm more invested in the new possibility than I am mourning the loss of the old.

And that, I think, is the key to making it worse. Don't allow yourself to keep a saggy plot point just because you like it. Make it worse. More central, more connected to the theme of the story. Make it bigger, more emotional. Then find another one and make it smaller, a silent, sad whisper of what you thought it would be. Give it a gut-wrenching feel in specific descriptions that will resonate with a reader. I mean, no one cares if you simply say someone tortured a character, or left a woman at the altar, or whatever. But if you can pause time for that brief moment where the character is living that thing, that thing they're afraid of, that thing they're telling themselves in their head isn't true, isn't real, etc. then I think you have effectively Made it Worse in a HUGE way, and readers respond to that sort of thing.

None of my stories really pushed the envelope. But I'm moving past that, now. If only slowly. I'm going to find ways to make my plot situations worse, to create more emotion for a reader...to hit them hard in the feels. And another thing Mr. Maass writes into his book, the thing that's hardest for me to believe is true, is that he says to "put yourself into your stories."

Boom* mind blown. I have been avoiding doing that for ten years because I thought it was juvenile and self-indulgent. But here he is shouting it in my face, begging me to put MY actual feelings into my characters' heads.

And the weirdest thing, is that if I look back at all the stories I've had critiqued, there are two scenes I wrote that people have responded to favorably, again and again. The scene where my dog died (okay, in the book it was a MC's best friend, but I put every physical sensation and thought I had while my best friend passed in my arms, to portray her going though the same), and a sword fight that breaks all the rules of how to write a fight scene. Now, I've never been in a duel, but I'm a sword-fighter, and all the things that happen in that scene are the things I think about when I'm fighting. And I added in some personal thoughts for the swordsman to experience, perhaps to show how he was overconfident in the first place? Anyways, those two scenes really have wowed a number of readers, and I have to admit, they're pretty much left in their raw state, from when I originally wrote them, and they're my personal thoughts and feelings. But everywhere else, I just make shit up, because I don't want to put myself into a book, that'd be boring...

HA! Make it worse! Raise the stakes!

 

[Caged Maiden]

You know, this is why I don't build tables...HA!

Yeah, I meant this post in a completely different way than it's gone. I just wanted to share that after 15 years of writing and 5 of being an every-day writer, I have finally EXPERIENCED the breakthrough of understanding HOW I can actually make it worse, without just throwing token bullshit my characters' way. My goal needs to be to dangle the carrot, make them feel like they'll soon get the carrot, and then fling the carrot into pig poop. And then maybe they'll be hungry for bacon, and I can dangle that for a little while...


Just gotta make it less convenient, less "easy" and more grounded in action and consequence. Like I said, why does her friend have to send her the letter warning her she's in danger? It makes more sense he'd just sell her out. Maybe he did it and sends the note because he feels guilty? Maybe there's no note or warning at all, she's just taken captive? Nothing else changes, but it's my hope that for a brief half a chapter, the reader gets angry that the guy we trusted betrayed us for no good reason. I mean, except that we were betraying him...but he didn't KNOW that!!! HA!

 

[FifthView]

Following this advice can result in an artificial story that gets too complex too soon, an overwhelmed storyteller and a serious Writer's Block that you would have difficulty to escape from.

In case that you find your current story or plot too weak or boring, you can follow this other advice instead: Try to find a new twist, a new challenge for the protagonist or a new character that will make things more interesting, and leave it like that while you wait to see how the story responds and how things develop.

Never be impatient, allow your story enough time to grow and show itself properly.

You should not add more layers of complexity hoping that all of those new things will somehow combine well and produce a good result, because said result could be good indeed but also it could lead you to a mess.

Not everything in Storytelling is about conflict and tension.

I don't know. This sounds like a pantser strategy.

But if I go back to my little brainstorm earlier in this thread, I see where I came up with a handful of initial conditions with inherent conflict and danger. A starting point. That starting point was one way of "making it worse." It's not bad enough that there was a 12-year-old orphan in the midst of a war-torn city. But still, by making the initial conditions "worse," I could then go on to write the story and let things develop from there.

Incidentally, a city torn by civil war, with street-to-street fighting, is pretty bad already, especially for an orphan on his own there. I mean, realistically speaking. Why would I want to "make it worse?" To make it more interesting—for me. Also, hopefully, for a reader. Plus, to find distinction, to narrow things down. There are way too many types of problems, conflicts, tensions and personal stories possible in such a setting, too many potential plots.

It is after setting those initial conditions that I started wondering about the implications, the natural set of events that might occur there, and fleshing the idea out. But of course, all this is still brainstorming; I've not written a single word. (It was just a spur-of-the-moment example for this discussion.)

If I were to go ahead and write a story from that premise, then I'd have to worry about other things, working my way down to the granular level that we find in scenes and chapters. So, does "make it worse" apply on these levels as well? Maybe. For instance, given my initial conditions, I might want to show those conditions by having my MC break into a building to steal food from someone else. But would it be satisfying just to show him breaking the boards over a window, crawling in, getting the food, then crawling out and heading back to his sisters? Or would it be more interesting, more engaging, if he was interrupted during his theft by the owners of that food? Or, on the way back to his sisters, he's caught in some crossfire between the two warring parties? Or, he gets back, gives the food to his malnourished sisters, and they get very sick from food poisoning; so, now he has to find a way to make them better, perhaps by asking for help or stealing some medicine? This may not be something that needs planned out, entirely outlined for a whole book before writing the book. It could be pantsed. But even pantsed, the question will arise at the time of writing or of editing, I think.

But on that granular level, I do think that unpredictable rhythms are good. If EVERY action taken by an MC is ALWAYS a twist for the worse, an absolute failure, then it would become too predictable. That would be boring. There would be a lack of surprise, and so a lack of tension, possibly. (Maybe some types of writing or genres do permit that constant twisting, that constant "making it worse" at the granular level?)

Edit: A P.S.: I wrote the above while a LOT of other comments were being made, and I haven't read them yet!

 

[Heliotrope]

For me, I just don't think that a lot of new writers carry their ideas far enough. I think they come up with a premise....

Ohhhh, a teenager gets stuck in a living maze and they have to get out.

And then that is it. They don't push themselves, or the story, or the character to do any more than that... And then what are they left with? Something pretty bland and generic. Sure, sure, you can include monsters and danger and blood and guts and maybe a romance, but it will always be sort of shallow and straightforward.

Make it worse forces you to dig deep. That's why I force myself to think of ten things, then ten more. Forcing myself to do that up front makes me really mine the the potential of the story idea so instead of something generic I end up with something really new, full of themes, conflict, choices, etc.

 

[Reilith]

Helio, everything you said in this thread rezonates for me. I would give you all kudos and thanks if I could! I want you as my beta one day!

Sent from my HTC Desire 820 using Tapatalk

 

[ThinkerX]

Hmmm...

Labyrinth: Journal -

Begins when MC's routine 'learn the family biz' trip to a foreign city goes pear shaped. MC gets blamed for an attempted imperial kidnapping and an unwanted 'regime change.'

MC's family sends him to the far side of the world to retrieve a lost heirloom in a giant maze. Enroute, MC discovers he's being chased by imperial agents commanded by his old CO - who pretty much taught him every trick in the book. Toss in some nasty wartime flashbacks, strange pirates, and a shipwreck for good measure.

MC reaches maze, hires reliable guide...and gets lost, because guide is interested in making a fast coin or two. Then MC reaches city where family heirloom is at. Intrigue. Why is lord so-and-so acting so chummy? A attempted theft accompanied by a diplomatic disaster! And how to defeat the spell guarding the relic? MC learns his old CO is just days away. But success! He retrieves the artefact...and is effectively exiled, under the guardianship of people he rightly dislikes.

And so on.

'Empire' is a little trickier. Well off middle class girl seeks aristocratic husband, with a list to interview and choose from. Being well off, she has retainers - a knightly bodyguard, an oafish carriage driver slash petty wizard, and a gypsy handmaiden slash bard. MC and company stumble across the scene of a massacre literal minutes after the fact (that's how the story opens) just outside the domain of candidate number four, a destitute baron. But, MC's knightly guardian is the barons half brother. And complications ensue from there. A monster hunt that goes nowhere. Political and economic hijinks. And nasty things building to a head in the background, except they get mostly overlooked because of the other stuff.

 

[Heliotrope]

Dang. I want to read Labrynth so bad.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Your approach of saying this advice can lead to bad outcomes has some assumptions in it, one of which is that the writer following it is a bit of an idiot. The outcomes you fear are only likely if one mishandles the tool.

Well, nobody here is an idiot and I am sorry if some people may have taken my comment that way.

However, you have to remember that many people in our community struggle to finish a good story. I have lost count of the number of times that somebody complains that their story is failing, or that they have a block... And when it has been discussed in the Chat they always talk about the complex plot, too many characters, holes in the story and so on, so I have come to the conclusion that they get tangled in a mess that they created themselves.

It's better to start with a simple, not so spectacular concept and easy plot and allow the story to develop from there. Too many people try to go wild and write a huge and incredible story only to realize later that they tried to bite more than they can chew, so they become blocked and frustrated for following advice like Make it Worse.

If you reach a point in your plot where you don't know where you should go next one way to find a path ahead is to say "How do I increase tension or how do I make this worse for my characters?"

Indeed, this type of advice could be helpful to get past a point in the story when you are not sure what happens next. Also consider that there are other ways of solving a situation like that, not only increasing tension or making it worse for the characters. You can send them in a travel, start a new relationship, introduce a new character or something else.

Isn't adding a new challenge or a twist really increasing tension?

Those two options are ways to make a story more interesting and more complex, without necessarily increasing the tension or making it worse for the characters involved.

Two things, firstly nobody has suggested anything like what you express in this quote. That is the equivilent of using the hammer on your thumb instead of your nail. To some degree when giving advice we have to assume the person receiving it can use the tool with some competence.

Secondly, and honestly, do you not agree that overall, the conflict, tension or trouble for the protagonist have to increase as the story builds to its climax for the story to be effective?

Yes, they have suggested that with those examples of a basic idea to start a story, and how they make it more and more complex with repeated applications of Make it Worse. Adding more and more layers of complexity to simply create a starting point only makes everything more forced and difficult, which leads many people to get tangled and blocked.

And no, I do not agree with that. Conflict and tension are necessary in a good Fantasy story, but you do not always have to keep them increasing with every chapter until you reach the greatest moment. In many of my stories the conflict, difficulties and tension grow for some time, then they decrease a lot and then they may increase again.

Other stories work better with the model that increases tension constantly until the big moments arrive, but there are other ways of creating and telling a story.

 

[ThinkerX]

Dang. I want to read Labrynth so bad.

PM me an email address and I'll send you a copy. Might take a day or two owing to multiplying RL issues.

That would make you the third person to read it.