Queshire
Istar
I tend to see Robin Hood used as an example of chaotic good more often than chaotic neutral.
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How do I write a good chaotic neutral character?
- Thread starter Naruzeldamaster
- Start date
pmmg
Myth Weaver
Well, I think it is more that he put to a chart something that already seemed true, but the principals are greater than himself. In the context of the game, there are a lot of powers in the universe, and in some contexts they get to make rules and absolve....but the RPG itself was a good model for presenting things that required players to problem solve, and work out moral aspects for themselves. Would any one be an authority over game contexts? I used to enjoy the complexities of it.
But....the system is somewhat of an illusion, while seemingly good graphs that captures four opposed traits, and their cross sections, it is far short of the whole of the complexity of people, and possibility. So, by presenting it, there is already a frame around the thought it engenders. That frame is limiting and confining. (This same is also true, every time they add new rules and content as well
)I can however write good characters using the models found in RPG's. They are usually a close match to what would work in fiction. But characters can be so much bigger than that. When applying characters to story, that they do chaotic things or not is not what is compelling about them. It is who they are, what they want, what makes them want, and how do they get it, that makes the stronger and more engaging. I would shoot for that. A good internal flaw trumps quirks about alignment.
Could not a Chaotic Neurtral character choose to be lawful because it benefits them? and if they kept that choice for their whole life, were they actually chaotic?
The Dark One
Auror
I only understand the chaotic neutral idea within the D&D system. To my mind it was simply enabling law abiding characters IRL to unleash the id and do whatever they please, virtually.
I remember being sick with laughter as a 19-20 yo at some of the antics our party got up to, which you would never dream of doing IRL. For example, my favourite way of getting money and weapons as a new character was to go into a bar, take note of someone who looked wealthy, commit their shoes to memory, then go into the bathroom and hide in a stall - waiting to see the shoes and hear them engaged at their ablutions. Then I would emerge and stab them in the back. Obviously, there were risks (as per the dice) but it usually worked. Although I do remember one hilarious episode where people kept walking into the bathroom as I was robbing corpses so they had to be attacked as well. It all got a bit silly...
I have hardly ever done this in real life.
You wouldn't know I'm a pacifist and a lawyer, would you?
I remember being sick with laughter as a 19-20 yo at some of the antics our party got up to, which you would never dream of doing IRL. For example, my favourite way of getting money and weapons as a new character was to go into a bar, take note of someone who looked wealthy, commit their shoes to memory, then go into the bathroom and hide in a stall - waiting to see the shoes and hear them engaged at their ablutions. Then I would emerge and stab them in the back. Obviously, there were risks (as per the dice) but it usually worked. Although I do remember one hilarious episode where people kept walking into the bathroom as I was robbing corpses so they had to be attacked as well. It all got a bit silly...
I have hardly ever done this in real life.
You wouldn't know I'm a pacifist and a lawyer, would you?
pmmg
Myth Weaver
You expect us to believe a lawyer on this? Let's just say I wont be going into stalls in bars near you.
The Dark One
Auror
Well, yes I am a lawyer but that's exactly my point.
Chaotic neutral characters are popular in D&D because they let loose the shackles of civil society and empower all manner of indulgence.
I think it would be extremely difficult to write such a character in fiction (as the MC) without turning off the reader. In fact my most successful novel was about a very naughty lawyer (crime novel) who appears to be quite chaotic and readers usually loathe him, until...
Chaotic neutral characters are popular in D&D because they let loose the shackles of civil society and empower all manner of indulgence.
I think it would be extremely difficult to write such a character in fiction (as the MC) without turning off the reader. In fact my most successful novel was about a very naughty lawyer (crime novel) who appears to be quite chaotic and readers usually loathe him, until...
ChaoticanWriter
Scribe
(ooooohhhh.... writing this comment after writing the below, and realized I went too far, and now its a rambling essay. ... Damnit. XD )
--------------------
Your honor!
As a humble country lawyer (not really), longtime DM and tabletop geek myself, I can tell you from my experience that creating characters based on the DnD alignment system is super surface-level when it comes to all of the possible influences, motives, and inner machinations of a character. Its mostly a tool in the game to provide quick archetypes to get started with a character that you can RP without spending weeks and weeks writing their spin-off novel. Dungeons and Dragons is definitely not a fantasy novel experience.
However, even when I've DM'd in the scope of DND, I've typically run sessions that are RP-heavy, and that requires a players self-knowledge of the character and how they are processing their situation, reacting to their environment, and pursuing their goals. ... Not unlike a more well-rounded character would.
In my DM circle, the alignment chart is a big topic of debate we tend to float back to, because we're balancing the games mechanical need with our desire to make the experience cinematic for everyone, which requires well-grounded characters, and players and DMs willing to put that energy into it.
One of the biggest ones I've heard is that alignment is "an estimation of behavioral trends in the context of their stasis / status-quo environment at the starting point of the story". ... Which sounds like a lot of nothing, but it actually tells a lot.
Mostly, a story (or campaign) is not a monolyth of the whole character, but a slice of their existence in the span of space and time. DnD is less about "stories" and more about "happenings",... whereas stories are the things you tell AFTER the events happen, though everyone puts in a good effort to make it cinematic regardless.
Honestly, now that I'm rolling out into this topic and committing to the brain dump, I might just make this an article on my site,... but here's how I personally would break this down.
Alignment as an "estimation of behavioral trends": ... People are never just "one thing". I do things that are wildly chaotic, and devoutly lawful, based on the circumstance. But neither am I all over the place, at every corner of the alignment chart. There are things I will do, and things I wont do; things I believe, and things I dont believe. When you take those straining and tugging influences into account, you get a "baseline". .... Alignment is a tool to reflect a baseline.
Alignment as "context of their stasis": ... In Three-Act Structure (or any other story structure you prefer over Three Act),... there is an idea of stasis, where the character is at one point in time. The point of stories is to watch characters change. A story begins in stasis. An inciting incident throws the character into a situation where they have to make a choice.... a change. If they choose to pursue that change, they leave stasis. Perhaps they bring most of their original beliefs with them, but they are opening themselves up to the change ahead of them.
Alignment as "context of status-quo environment": ... Nobody escapes their environment. Nobodies personality and core belief structure escapes their environment. Even if I'm the bestest boy in the whole land, and I'm forced to live in an environment surrounded by evil, I may become more resilient,... or that evil may rub off on me for the worse,... for the more permanent. Even if I'm the most chaotic, self-destructive boy in the whole land and no place to live, and I've been accepted into a monastery by those who promote self-awareness, discipline, kindness, and order,... I might be unchanged, I may be a continued nuisance but with a gold heart I never knew I had, or someone who at least found the calm to meditate on myself and drift into more neutral territory,... or someone who got his ducks in a row and committed fully to the order for a sense of stability. ... Nobody. Escapes. Their. Environment
Alignment as "the starting point": ... As mentioned in stasis, you aren't making a character who is static. Everyone starts somewhere. ... If I ask "Who are you?", thats a MASSIVE question that doesnt really have an answer. If I ask you "Who are you at this point of your life?", THEN the answers start pouring out.
Now,... Chaotic Neutral has always been tricky at face value in you're thinking in conventional alignment. How do you play a protagonist that cares about nothing moral, only their own freedom,... in a world where they are entangled with characters who are happy to impress their own worldview,... not to mention the society in general which probably wont let them thrive without conforming to basic social requirements and laws, and is happy to persecute them for not confirming. In DnD, you'd be making a ton of work for the party and DM, right? That house thats burning down across the way is bringing over a ton of guards, and derailing the partys quest. ... Thats the problem with thinking of alignment in conventional POV.
Its different when you put into this perspective. If you think of a character as less a "static individual", and as a changing and evolving individual, affected by their environment, and is in a certain place in their life as of a certain space and time,... Chaotic Neutral makes a lot more sense, and has a lot more examples to emulate.
----------------------
The wild-person on the outskirts of society? ... Proto-typical chaotic neutral stereotype. Usually a bad example. Actually pretty awful. Lets fix it!
What if they were once an otherwise lawful and pleasant individual once who experiences a terrible traumatic event, which caused them to spiral down and throw away their sense of law and society (maybe their environment is a corrupt kingdom. makes sense), and so racked with grief that they went into a self-destructive cycle. Now, in the start of the story, this is who they are. .. .But they stumble upon an opportunity, or are recruited into a party, and are gingerly reacquainting themselves with society. They're treated with kindness, despite their appearance and bad streak, and their hangover. ... This is.... nice. =3 ... Of course, they've brought all of their distrust and destructive behaviors with them; nobody can just throw away trauma. It has to be processed. It has to be confronted eventually. If only they can figure out a way to heal. ... To stop this streak. ... And this opportunity... this is the opportunity to confront it, and get back a sense of their past self or beliefs. Past faith rewarded! ... Drifting towards good, or law by the end of the story.
Or perhaps the story is that it affirms something they were afraid to believe, but now accept that the world is a rotten place, and the only way to live is rotten... drifting toward something more evil, whether chaotic, or weighted.
Or... perhaps they never find that resolution. Or the resolution remains hollow. ... They will continue trying. Or not. ... Perhaps to them, chaotic neutral is a cycle.
-----------------------
Also very much in the art community... and I see TONS of people who are super focused on their art, getting their hands on things, creating, crafting, expressing themselves, fulfilling that need. ... Also the kind of people who love exploring the beach, finding tiny rocks to take home. My people.
So, take this example with all due affection and frolic...
One version of Chaotic Neutral is someone who has no concern about morals being projected by this or that person. They just want the freedom to do the things they are passionate in. ... If in a DnD context, it might be that being part of the party is the opportunity to do that on a more intense scale. All of their bickering about philosophy and consequences, thats for the party to worry about. Its not their place. ... Just let them create things. Tinker with things. Do the thing that makes THEM happy. ... Every now and then, they are the right person for the job, regardless of the ramifications of the job. They fix a thing, and it causes moral problems elsewhere? Pfft. ... Just let me fix it! ... And dont tell me how!
... but naturally, with the breakdown provided, perhaps they come to a conclusion that simply creating things is just one stop of their journey. They might evolve over time, and there might be a moment where they decide that sharing that with others is not just about their happiness, but it makes others happy. It... makes the world... a better place?
Better... place? Yay!
=) .... Chaotic good achieved!
Or, perhaps they give it a try, and the entire villiage laughs at them. ...
Do you know what else they're good at making? ... Fire. ... And it turns out... they're really good at it. Why not make this a new passion?
>=) ... Chaotic evil achieved!
Or perhaps they've floated between both acts at one point or another, and... well... the baseline is that they really only care about what makes them happy. Just... dont disrepect them. It will not look pretty.
=3 ... Chaotic neutral maintained!
----------------------
I dont know how to end this thing, so I'll just say....
may the cats you pet be ever fluffy!
--------------------
Your honor!
As a humble country lawyer (not really), longtime DM and tabletop geek myself, I can tell you from my experience that creating characters based on the DnD alignment system is super surface-level when it comes to all of the possible influences, motives, and inner machinations of a character. Its mostly a tool in the game to provide quick archetypes to get started with a character that you can RP without spending weeks and weeks writing their spin-off novel. Dungeons and Dragons is definitely not a fantasy novel experience.
However, even when I've DM'd in the scope of DND, I've typically run sessions that are RP-heavy, and that requires a players self-knowledge of the character and how they are processing their situation, reacting to their environment, and pursuing their goals. ... Not unlike a more well-rounded character would.
In my DM circle, the alignment chart is a big topic of debate we tend to float back to, because we're balancing the games mechanical need with our desire to make the experience cinematic for everyone, which requires well-grounded characters, and players and DMs willing to put that energy into it.
One of the biggest ones I've heard is that alignment is "an estimation of behavioral trends in the context of their stasis / status-quo environment at the starting point of the story". ... Which sounds like a lot of nothing, but it actually tells a lot.
Mostly, a story (or campaign) is not a monolyth of the whole character, but a slice of their existence in the span of space and time. DnD is less about "stories" and more about "happenings",... whereas stories are the things you tell AFTER the events happen, though everyone puts in a good effort to make it cinematic regardless.
Honestly, now that I'm rolling out into this topic and committing to the brain dump, I might just make this an article on my site,... but here's how I personally would break this down.
Alignment as an "estimation of behavioral trends": ... People are never just "one thing". I do things that are wildly chaotic, and devoutly lawful, based on the circumstance. But neither am I all over the place, at every corner of the alignment chart. There are things I will do, and things I wont do; things I believe, and things I dont believe. When you take those straining and tugging influences into account, you get a "baseline". .... Alignment is a tool to reflect a baseline.
Alignment as "context of their stasis": ... In Three-Act Structure (or any other story structure you prefer over Three Act),... there is an idea of stasis, where the character is at one point in time. The point of stories is to watch characters change. A story begins in stasis. An inciting incident throws the character into a situation where they have to make a choice.... a change. If they choose to pursue that change, they leave stasis. Perhaps they bring most of their original beliefs with them, but they are opening themselves up to the change ahead of them.
Alignment as "context of status-quo environment": ... Nobody escapes their environment. Nobodies personality and core belief structure escapes their environment. Even if I'm the bestest boy in the whole land, and I'm forced to live in an environment surrounded by evil, I may become more resilient,... or that evil may rub off on me for the worse,... for the more permanent. Even if I'm the most chaotic, self-destructive boy in the whole land and no place to live, and I've been accepted into a monastery by those who promote self-awareness, discipline, kindness, and order,... I might be unchanged, I may be a continued nuisance but with a gold heart I never knew I had, or someone who at least found the calm to meditate on myself and drift into more neutral territory,... or someone who got his ducks in a row and committed fully to the order for a sense of stability. ... Nobody. Escapes. Their. Environment
Alignment as "the starting point": ... As mentioned in stasis, you aren't making a character who is static. Everyone starts somewhere. ... If I ask "Who are you?", thats a MASSIVE question that doesnt really have an answer. If I ask you "Who are you at this point of your life?", THEN the answers start pouring out.
Now,... Chaotic Neutral has always been tricky at face value in you're thinking in conventional alignment. How do you play a protagonist that cares about nothing moral, only their own freedom,... in a world where they are entangled with characters who are happy to impress their own worldview,... not to mention the society in general which probably wont let them thrive without conforming to basic social requirements and laws, and is happy to persecute them for not confirming. In DnD, you'd be making a ton of work for the party and DM, right? That house thats burning down across the way is bringing over a ton of guards, and derailing the partys quest. ... Thats the problem with thinking of alignment in conventional POV.
Its different when you put into this perspective. If you think of a character as less a "static individual", and as a changing and evolving individual, affected by their environment, and is in a certain place in their life as of a certain space and time,... Chaotic Neutral makes a lot more sense, and has a lot more examples to emulate.
----------------------
The wild-person on the outskirts of society? ... Proto-typical chaotic neutral stereotype. Usually a bad example. Actually pretty awful. Lets fix it!
What if they were once an otherwise lawful and pleasant individual once who experiences a terrible traumatic event, which caused them to spiral down and throw away their sense of law and society (maybe their environment is a corrupt kingdom. makes sense), and so racked with grief that they went into a self-destructive cycle. Now, in the start of the story, this is who they are. .. .But they stumble upon an opportunity, or are recruited into a party, and are gingerly reacquainting themselves with society. They're treated with kindness, despite their appearance and bad streak, and their hangover. ... This is.... nice. =3 ... Of course, they've brought all of their distrust and destructive behaviors with them; nobody can just throw away trauma. It has to be processed. It has to be confronted eventually. If only they can figure out a way to heal. ... To stop this streak. ... And this opportunity... this is the opportunity to confront it, and get back a sense of their past self or beliefs. Past faith rewarded! ... Drifting towards good, or law by the end of the story.
Or perhaps the story is that it affirms something they were afraid to believe, but now accept that the world is a rotten place, and the only way to live is rotten... drifting toward something more evil, whether chaotic, or weighted.
Or... perhaps they never find that resolution. Or the resolution remains hollow. ... They will continue trying. Or not. ... Perhaps to them, chaotic neutral is a cycle.
-----------------------
Totally tracks! ... Am ADHD. Have ADHD friends. Dated ADHD people.
Also very much in the art community... and I see TONS of people who are super focused on their art, getting their hands on things, creating, crafting, expressing themselves, fulfilling that need. ... Also the kind of people who love exploring the beach, finding tiny rocks to take home. My people.
So, take this example with all due affection and frolic...
One version of Chaotic Neutral is someone who has no concern about morals being projected by this or that person. They just want the freedom to do the things they are passionate in. ... If in a DnD context, it might be that being part of the party is the opportunity to do that on a more intense scale. All of their bickering about philosophy and consequences, thats for the party to worry about. Its not their place. ... Just let them create things. Tinker with things. Do the thing that makes THEM happy. ... Every now and then, they are the right person for the job, regardless of the ramifications of the job. They fix a thing, and it causes moral problems elsewhere? Pfft. ... Just let me fix it! ... And dont tell me how!
... but naturally, with the breakdown provided, perhaps they come to a conclusion that simply creating things is just one stop of their journey. They might evolve over time, and there might be a moment where they decide that sharing that with others is not just about their happiness, but it makes others happy. It... makes the world... a better place?
Better... place? Yay!
=) .... Chaotic good achieved!
Or, perhaps they give it a try, and the entire villiage laughs at them. ...
Do you know what else they're good at making? ... Fire. ... And it turns out... they're really good at it. Why not make this a new passion?
>=) ... Chaotic evil achieved!
Or perhaps they've floated between both acts at one point or another, and... well... the baseline is that they really only care about what makes them happy. Just... dont disrepect them. It will not look pretty.
=3 ... Chaotic neutral maintained!
----------------------
I dont know how to end this thing, so I'll just say....
may the cats you pet be ever fluffy!
Last edited:
Finchbearer
Istar
I’m writing a Robin Hood retelling and I wouldn’t even say chaotic. He’s organised and calculated in his general outlawery.
pmmg
Myth Weaver
I think the erol flynn, disney fox versions are chaotic, but no reason he cant be otherwise. Ppl are usually a mix if all properties. Mr hood, is also one put in an unusual circumstance, which may have changed his approach.
It was kind of that the law became unacceptable that he opposed it.
It was kind of that the law became unacceptable that he opposed it.
I have mixed feelings about using things like Alignment Systems (or Myers-Briggs, or other personality charts) to describe a character. They only cover a very narrow sliver of a personality, and they set up a dichotomy (possess this trait, yes or no?) without considering that most people are in the middle, or inconsistent (ie., I'm usually an introvert, but I can be an extrovert in the right circumstance). But if it helps you, go for it.
The character who leaps out at me as Chaotic Neutral is Loki, from the MCU. His motivation is to claim what he sees as his birthright, something that shifts a little over time. But he doesn't care about good and evil to do it. Audiences love him.
Following that example, I think Chaotic Neutral works best for a supporting villain. That's the villain who survives through three books while the main villain gets killed at the end of each. Characters like Loki. Magneto. Arguably, even Professor Snape.
Rather than being mercenaries who flip to the winning side, a strong Chaotic Neutral character has a passion that for them transcends good and evil, something which makes them unpredictable but also that can appealed to and negotiated with, and enough charm to win over the sympathy of others.
Edit to Add:
As an example of how simplified Alignments are, one person can reasonably be Lawful Neutral at work, Neutral Good in their own home, and Chaotic Neutral when they're drunk at a party, without being a contradiction.
The character who leaps out at me as Chaotic Neutral is Loki, from the MCU. His motivation is to claim what he sees as his birthright, something that shifts a little over time. But he doesn't care about good and evil to do it. Audiences love him.
Following that example, I think Chaotic Neutral works best for a supporting villain. That's the villain who survives through three books while the main villain gets killed at the end of each. Characters like Loki. Magneto. Arguably, even Professor Snape.
Rather than being mercenaries who flip to the winning side, a strong Chaotic Neutral character has a passion that for them transcends good and evil, something which makes them unpredictable but also that can appealed to and negotiated with, and enough charm to win over the sympathy of others.
Edit to Add:
As an example of how simplified Alignments are, one person can reasonably be Lawful Neutral at work, Neutral Good in their own home, and Chaotic Neutral when they're drunk at a party, without being a contradiction.
Last edited:
The Dark One
Auror
How well you know me...
I think "Get out the peanut butter, it's about to get weird," pretty much sums it up.
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