SageI've been working on-and-off on a fantasy/adventure novella for the better part of a year now (though i would prefer more on than off but life gets in the way sometimes). During the writing process I've learned a lot of things to improve my writing. I also discovered in recent years I'm very much an intuitive writer. I enjoy ruminating about the stories and the directions they go and feeling the sequences of events. However, I'm reaching a point in the story where i worry that the parts aren't coming together as cohesively as i want. I know the story beats, but the cause-and-effect is sloppy at times. I know how the major story beats go, I know how it should end. I currently have 2 chapters written and 3 chapters with a rough plan, 5 chapters total. I've been considering just taking what i have and putting it through some kind of plotting system, but last time i did this with a novel idea (that i've long since abandoned) I ended up not writing the story. I fear this will happen again if i try to plot this story out in a structured way. I've looked into the Snowflake method again and it seems like it could help me by letting me include writing the story out as part of the plotting process, but at the same time a lot of my enjoyment comes from thinking about the stories and working out the plot in my head as i'm writing. I'm kind of at a lost as to what would be the best way to proceed for me.
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I fear ruining my story by plotting it out
- Thread starter Devora
- Start date
pmmg
Myth Weaver
So what is wrong with trying to write it without so much structure? Just let it flow and see what develops?
Writing is problem solving, all those enjoyable moments you describe, is just you solving problems for how the story can keep working. That is its own adventure.
Cant you just problem solve your way through it?
Writing is problem solving, all those enjoyable moments you describe, is just you solving problems for how the story can keep working. That is its own adventure.
Cant you just problem solve your way through it?
Incanus
Auror
This can be a tough situation, and no two writers are alike.
I’ve been doing more of the planner/plotter sort of thing (for a novel), while leaving plenty of room for discovery writing. It’s been working for me, but it took a lot of doing it the wrong way to get to this point.
What you describe reminds me of the classic movie director Alfred Hitchcock. According to him, his favorite part was working out the story with story boards. For him, that was making the movie. Being on set and committing the story to film was tedious work for him, because in his mind the story was already complete.
I think for many of us, there is a fun and exciting part of writing, and there is the hard work part. What those are may be different for many of us.
Maybe try to come up with a way to make the ‘work’ part of it a little more fun somehow.
Good luck----
I’ve been doing more of the planner/plotter sort of thing (for a novel), while leaving plenty of room for discovery writing. It’s been working for me, but it took a lot of doing it the wrong way to get to this point.
What you describe reminds me of the classic movie director Alfred Hitchcock. According to him, his favorite part was working out the story with story boards. For him, that was making the movie. Being on set and committing the story to film was tedious work for him, because in his mind the story was already complete.
I think for many of us, there is a fun and exciting part of writing, and there is the hard work part. What those are may be different for many of us.
Maybe try to come up with a way to make the ‘work’ part of it a little more fun somehow.
Good luck----
- Thread starter
- #4
The idea, at least they way I'm seeing right now, is that i already have the story pretty much plotted out. I know how it starts and ends, and everything practically in-between. I don't think i can say i'm a pantser writer since i do think about these stories to a large extent before i begin writing, but I wonder if i'm too loose and having some extra rigidity could help refine the ideas i've already crafted. I will admit that if i plotted from scratch it probably would hurt my story more than help it.
pmmg
Myth Weaver
So...the topic asks, am I ruining my story by plotting it out, but you just said above "but I wonder if i'm too loose and having some extra rigidity could help refine the ideas i've already crafted."
Those seem like opposites to me.
For myself. I don't outline, but I do sort of have a running outline in my head. Then I problem solve my way through it. I might know the Prince is going to find the talisman and leave his party to go off alone, but I don't know all the stuff he might encounter between where he starts, to when he finds it. So that is all up in the air. Usually, the scenes end with some indication as to what the next scene 'must' be. If they encounter a werewolf at the end of the scene, I guess the next one is about dealing with the werewolf. If his friend gets bit at the end of that scene, I guess the next scene is dealing with the bite...and so forth.
Its not outlining, but stuff is unfolding in a way that kind of puts a ring through his nose that he is pulled by.
When I started, I had no idea there would be a werewolf and it would take up 3 scenes and kill his friend, but there it was. And then things expand, cause now we know there are werewolves and they are dangerous to characters. Prince must compensate.
Those seem like opposites to me.
For myself. I don't outline, but I do sort of have a running outline in my head. Then I problem solve my way through it. I might know the Prince is going to find the talisman and leave his party to go off alone, but I don't know all the stuff he might encounter between where he starts, to when he finds it. So that is all up in the air. Usually, the scenes end with some indication as to what the next scene 'must' be. If they encounter a werewolf at the end of the scene, I guess the next one is about dealing with the werewolf. If his friend gets bit at the end of that scene, I guess the next scene is dealing with the bite...and so forth.
Its not outlining, but stuff is unfolding in a way that kind of puts a ring through his nose that he is pulled by.
When I started, I had no idea there would be a werewolf and it would take up 3 scenes and kill his friend, but there it was. And then things expand, cause now we know there are werewolves and they are dangerous to characters. Prince must compensate.
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- Thread starter
- #6
Admittingly, my apprehension is probably creating a contradiction in thought. I want to do it but i worry it will mess up the writing process i've been trying to develop.
pmmg
Myth Weaver
Back to the beginning....
You have discovered you are an intuitive writer. So, I would encourage you to embrace that and develop it as much as you can. If that is what works for you, than that what you got to go with. Everything else is cutting against the grain.
See the rule 2. Finish it.
This may be the way it happens in the rough. But once the rough is done, you can fix all this, and with more ease, in the rewrite. Thats when you should attack issues like disjointed plot points. Thats what the rough is for, getting down in crude form so it can be hammered into shape later.
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Jackarandajam
Maester
I think alot of writing is experience. Nothing really for it than to get started, make the mistakes, try things that dont work, learn and do again.
Prince of Spires
Istar
There is a very big misconception regarding plotting and pantsing that is rarely mentioned, and that is that there is no such thing as "a plotter" and "a pantser." In most conversations about plotting, we pretend there is only 2 extremes, two buckets all writers fall in to. It's useful for many discussions, however, it is also a very big abstraction of what is actually happening. And that is that plotting vs pantsing is a continuous scale, not 2 separate, distinct buckets.
That scale goes from I have no idea about the story at all, but this character seems interesting on the pure pantsing side to I have written a 50k word outline detailing every single little story beat. Those are the two extremes, and everyone falls somewhere in between those. pmmg falls on the pantsing side. However, she has some idea about the plot, setting and characters, so she's not at the extreme end of it. Mad Swede here on the forum doesn't plot in the sense that he writes out his plot in an outline, however, he thinks through his complete tale before he starts writing. He might be considered somewhere in the middle. I also know a published author who pants the first half to three-quarters of his story, and then he sits down and plots the last 25%, just to make sure he ties up all the loose ends and gives the story a satisfying conclusion.
I personally say I plot. I create an outline before I start. However, it's a high level outline. I write a sentence or two per chapter and take it from there. And that outline is fluid and tends to become more vague for the latter parts of the story. My characters will do unexpected things that slightly change the course of the story, I run into unexpected plot points, and I adjust along the way. So just because I know roughly what will happen, it doesn't mean there is no discovery when writing.
All that to say, don't pin yourself in one category or another. If you think you know what to write, then just sit down and give it a try. Worst that can happen is that you come to a point where you don't know how to proceed and you need to sit down and plot what happens next.
There is another big secret people tend to forget. And that is that your first draft doesn't have to be your final draft. A lot of pantsers treat their first draft more like a big outline. And once they finish, they then go back to tie the whole thing back together. They remove the random sidequests that seemed like a good idea at the time but went no where, or tighten up the character arc. Nothing wrong with removing any inconsistencies after the fact.
Even plotters do this by the way. I have had plenty of stories where at the end I found I needed to have something happen at the start, or the wording of a prophecy changed to better fit the climax. So I just go back and make that change in the second draft. It's a variation of Chekov's Gun. The original Chekov's Gun "rule" sais that if you have a gun hanging on the mantle in the first act, you had better shoot it in the third. For authors it's also that if you come to the third act and you find that you need a gun to shoot, you then go back and hang it on the wall in the first act.
That scale goes from I have no idea about the story at all, but this character seems interesting on the pure pantsing side to I have written a 50k word outline detailing every single little story beat. Those are the two extremes, and everyone falls somewhere in between those. pmmg falls on the pantsing side. However, she has some idea about the plot, setting and characters, so she's not at the extreme end of it. Mad Swede here on the forum doesn't plot in the sense that he writes out his plot in an outline, however, he thinks through his complete tale before he starts writing. He might be considered somewhere in the middle. I also know a published author who pants the first half to three-quarters of his story, and then he sits down and plots the last 25%, just to make sure he ties up all the loose ends and gives the story a satisfying conclusion.
I personally say I plot. I create an outline before I start. However, it's a high level outline. I write a sentence or two per chapter and take it from there. And that outline is fluid and tends to become more vague for the latter parts of the story. My characters will do unexpected things that slightly change the course of the story, I run into unexpected plot points, and I adjust along the way. So just because I know roughly what will happen, it doesn't mean there is no discovery when writing.
All that to say, don't pin yourself in one category or another. If you think you know what to write, then just sit down and give it a try. Worst that can happen is that you come to a point where you don't know how to proceed and you need to sit down and plot what happens next.
There is another big secret people tend to forget. And that is that your first draft doesn't have to be your final draft. A lot of pantsers treat their first draft more like a big outline. And once they finish, they then go back to tie the whole thing back together. They remove the random sidequests that seemed like a good idea at the time but went no where, or tighten up the character arc. Nothing wrong with removing any inconsistencies after the fact.
Even plotters do this by the way. I have had plenty of stories where at the end I found I needed to have something happen at the start, or the wording of a prophecy changed to better fit the climax. So I just go back and make that change in the second draft. It's a variation of Chekov's Gun. The original Chekov's Gun "rule" sais that if you have a gun hanging on the mantle in the first act, you had better shoot it in the third. For authors it's also that if you come to the third act and you find that you need a gun to shoot, you then go back and hang it on the wall in the first act.
Finchbearer
Istar
There are those books I’ve read and found out after that the author is a ‘pantser’ and it has all kind of made sense. Subplots that went nowhere, poor characterisation, lack of resolutions, convoluted conflicts, poor writing, plot holes etc.
So, I think there is value in planning. That being said, I understand that ‘magic’ creative flow that if it gets disturbed it can feel like the project has lost that ‘effervescence’. But, once you realise that creative flow needs to be in balance to just getting something completed for the sake of finishing something, you’ll have to at some point push through that uncomfortable feeling you describe.
So, I think there is value in planning. That being said, I understand that ‘magic’ creative flow that if it gets disturbed it can feel like the project has lost that ‘effervescence’. But, once you realise that creative flow needs to be in balance to just getting something completed for the sake of finishing something, you’ll have to at some point push through that uncomfortable feeling you describe.
Ned Marcus
Maester
Since I started plotting my stories, I've written faster, but getting to this stage took a lot of experimentation. And, for many people, the first novel takes a long time because you're learning what works. You could plot one chapter, write it, then plot the next, then write it etc.
Jackarandajam
Maester
I treat each chapter like a short story, more or less. It helps me not get overwhelmed thinking about the whole thing all the time.
Like this:
- O B Chapter One: The Monster of G Tower
- Plot reveals: G was murdered, his practices, an evil presence, traces of M Y.
- Scene tension: Classic suspense, creeping through the tower.
- Scene resolution: Face off with evil presence, escapes tower.
- Character development: Introduction that conflicts with the previous scene with C.
- Scene story: Lovecraftian horror; enter, discover, exit with life.
This chapter breakdown is simpler because it's just one POV without any side characters to work on. The main storyline breakdown gets more complicated, but manageable.
After I'm done with this, I know I can mostly ignore the master list and pull up one scene at a time and meditate on how I want it to play out, then write it.
The only exception is when I add something not in the outline or take something away, and I have to pop back over to the master list and edit it in or out.
breaks the whole thing down into bite-sized pieces, and my brain is very grateful that I mostly only have to think about whichever scene I'm working on instead of constantly mentally juggling the whole damned thing.
That's my two cents. Obviously, no one has ever accused me of Pantsing, but I don't write everything like this, just the big stuff with a complicated plot I want to make sure I get right.
I've found that in most situations I'm more excited to know something is gonna come off just how I want it to then disappointed that I'm doing less discovery writing than I could be.
And I will ABSOLUTELY punch out a pantser scene if I'm stuck on a difficult chapter just to see how it plays out improvised. Sometimes I even keep em.
Anyway, as my old boss used to tell me, "DO WHAT YOU WANT, YOU'RE GOING TO ANYWAY."
Here's the thing. You won't know what works for you until you try it. For me the process of writing a book changes with every project. And with each project, I learn more about what I like and need to do in order to finish a book. I also learn about what I dislike and don't need to do.
You can't live in fear of "ruining" your story. Because, from my perspective, every story idea gets "ruined" on the first try. That's why we edit and revise.
Another thing to think about is, if you plotted out your story and you suddenly loose all interest in it, you have to ask yourself why? It could be the story wasn't as interesting as you though it was. I could be maybe you're really not interested in writing stories. You're just interested in thinking about ideas for stories. Maybe it's a combination of everything, or maybe it's something else completely different involved here.
You won't know until you try, and I'm not just talking about writing a few chapters. I'm talking about completing a project. If you never complete anything, it doesn't matter what approach you take. It all leads to the same place, a story not being told.
You can't live in fear of "ruining" your story. Because, from my perspective, every story idea gets "ruined" on the first try. That's why we edit and revise.
Another thing to think about is, if you plotted out your story and you suddenly loose all interest in it, you have to ask yourself why? It could be the story wasn't as interesting as you though it was. I could be maybe you're really not interested in writing stories. You're just interested in thinking about ideas for stories. Maybe it's a combination of everything, or maybe it's something else completely different involved here.
You won't know until you try, and I'm not just talking about writing a few chapters. I'm talking about completing a project. If you never complete anything, it doesn't matter what approach you take. It all leads to the same place, a story not being told.
