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I need some serious help with my martial arts fantasy story

WonderingSword5

Troubadour
Yes, that could work. But he might not even get that old or maybe age slowly? Or just be very fit for his age? Johnny Lawrence and Daniel from Cobra Kai are both in their 50's and they can move and fight like they are in their 20's or 30's I think.

And what about real life martial art actors like Tonny Jaa, Michael Jai White, Scott Adkins, who are in their late 50's or 40's? Couldn't my MC be old like them and fit like them too?

But I guess that's why supernatural animal spirits and drug enhancements can play a role.
 
the answer is that they are actors. they don't actually fight anymore. The issue is basically recover time-> young people bounce back from injury, muscle strain, etc, older people do not. This is not just about the fight itself, but how long and hard you can train etc. If you get injured, or have to stop training simply because your muscles begin to give out- you won't be as strong, fast, and last as the young guy who can train twice as long and hard as you can . thus steroids. steroids can help you recover much faster and increase endurance etc(they are not just for bulking up) and vastly extend your ability to compete. Look what Lance could do on them!

but naturally that is pretty hard. so yeah- if he uses the drugs.. that would sure help.
 

WonderingSword5

Troubadour
Now I see why others might not buy into a 50 yr old being able to fight in top shape and condition, but couldn't that make for a good struggle and conflict within himself? And also being that he has this supernatural abilities in him, let alone the new drugs the companies are promoting. His training descends from a warrior monk, where this certain energy has been channeled through him, which is like a form of science, almost non existent in the world today. He's practically not even human anymore, does that help change things? The training he received was very rare, topping most athletes.
 
There is two sides to this. One is physical. As a 20 year old you recover faster, are stronger and have better reactions than as a 50 year old. It's why athletes are often at their peak somewhere between 25-30. It gives the ideal combination of experience and strength / endurance.

The other side is mental. The processes in your brain which let you learn new things diminish. It doesn't mean you can't learn new things, but it does take longer and it's a lot harder to become an expert in something.

Having said that, if you have a world where you can mittigate those aspects, then you're fine. If there's specific drugs which negate the age issue then you can ignore parts of it. The same with magic. If there's a magical reason why you are capable of certain things then you can get away with it. Of course, do consider why a young person can't use the same drugs and get the same benefit. After all, if you're 10% stronger without the drugs, and the drugs give you a 50% boost, then if you both take the drugs then you'll still be 10% stronger. Of course, if the effect is different (say, it makes your body act like it's 10 years younger) then it will work differently as well.

I do think it's a good idea to have him do martial arts throughout all the years. It doesn't have to be at a high level, but if you keep doing it even only a little bit then it will be easier to get back into it.
 

WonderingSword5

Troubadour
There is two sides to this. One is physical. As a 20 year old you recover faster, are stronger and have better reactions than as a 50 year old. It's why athletes are often at their peak somewhere between 25-30. It gives the ideal combination of experience and strength / endurance.

The other side is mental. The processes in your brain which let you learn new things diminish. It doesn't mean you can't learn new things, but it does take longer and it's a lot harder to become an expert in something.

So if the MC has these magic animal spirits within him, plus if he gets put on the enhanced drugs combined, would that be excusable enough where his age won't wear him down physically and mentally?

Having said that, if you have a world where you can mittigate those aspects, then you're fine. If there's specific drugs which negate the age issue then you can ignore parts of it. The same with magic. If there's a magical reason why you are capable of certain things then you can get away with it. Of course, do consider why a young person can't use the same drugs and get the same benefit. After all, if you're 10% stronger without the drugs, and the drugs give you a 50% boost, then if you both take the drugs then you'll still be 10% stronger. Of course, if the effect is different (say, it makes your body act like it's 10 years younger) then it will work differently as well.

I was going to say that the MC was the only one (as of now), to have these animal spirits within, combined with the drugs could keep him on par, or maybe more than a 20 something tear old on these drugs so he gets a higher effect?

I do think it's a good idea to have him do martial arts throughout all the years. It doesn't have to be at a high level, but if you keep doing it even only a little bit then it will be easier to get back into it.

Yes even through his tough times he tried other arts but didnt go well.
 
So if the MC has these magic animal spirits within him, plus if he gets put on the enhanced drugs combined, would that be excusable enough where his age won't wear him down physically and mentally?
Sure, that could work. Magic and technology is a fine reason why a person has a different biology form what we experience in the present day.
 
easy enough not to use it. for one thing, it does ring close to "spirit animal" which is a misappropriated and often commoditized Native American tradition. So steering clear of that association is probably for the best depending upon various factors and assumptions.
 

WonderingSword5

Troubadour
easy enough not to use it. for one thing, it does ring close to "spirit animal" which is a misappropriated and often commoditized Native American tradition. So steering clear of that association is probably for the best depending upon various factors and assumptions.

What if I make it Chinese or Japanese animal spirits with immortality?
 

Solusandra

Troubadour
First what does everyone think of this whole setup? Any improvements needed?
To confirm... you ARE asking us to pick and poke? If not, disregard the rest.
his parents (or just the mother as I was going to say he had an abusive step dad and never met his real father) sent him to take kung fu classes,
Step father would be more likely to send him to fighting classes, even if he was abusing the kid.
which was led by an instructor who was also a military vet who had a crazy attitude and was abusive to the MC and other students as well.
He'd lose his customers pretty quickly; though I suppose if they were all abusive mothers/fathers sending their kids there with the same idea as military school, that could save his business.
Abusive kung fu teacher trope works in other places because the MC desperately WANTS what they have to offer. A shy MC or mother wanting to save him from bullying would flee this school posthaste.
As the MC gets into his teens he becomes more self confident which is falsely hidden by the military martial art vet trainer's true intentions.
This could use a bit of clarification. Is the vet guy setting up a plot for story? Or is he one of those gruff asshole teddybear types?
The MC does well for the school, winning matches, promoting the school, making him feel almost invincible and even bullies over the years have backed off and some have began to fear the MC,
Does this happen in a montage? Or is it a decent portion of the story? Because there's a lot of best selling Rocky Balboa type books with that as their plot.
but the abuse catches up to the MC and the manipulation the martial arts school and bad vet teacher put on him, even with making the school sell more by using the MC for promotions, and gaining the attention of more women to the school for the bad instructors to get a hold of. The MC one day loses his match, (early 2000's-late 90's perhaps?) then the military vet teacher who ran the school shows his true colors and physically abuses and degrades the MC for his loss and blaming the MC for the schools failure and reputation.
This is the story peak, I assume? the point of no return/descent into hell part of the wheel?
MC goes into a life of misery after realizing his training and teacher he was deceived by. He ends up not getting a martial arts scholarship and can't handle any minimal wage job and gets treated badly by everyone, becoming homeless and a reckless mess.
belly of the whale.
Years later as an adult, he witnesses an attack on the street of some punks harassing a few victims. MC's instincts kick in and he rescues them, it hits the news and some random old good master who was skilled in various forms of Japanese martial arts, hears of this and he decides to help the MC and train him, helping the MC finally after all these years achieve the gaol of becoming an incredible martial artist, the MC one day becoming a teacher himself, even proving that his old style works in an MMA match,
This... sounds like the arcs of several books, but it looks like you're wanting it to all be in the same book. If you don't mind my saying so, that may be what's stopping you up.

As a side note, I don't get where these instincts you talk about come from. It's not part of the character you've described up till now.
And for the fantasy aspect, the MC who had now trained with the new master, he would of unlocked something spiritual in the MC which is connected to animals spirits so the MC when gaining better skills or the right path he sees a visual of a lion or tiger that lets him know he's doing well, and various other animals and mythical creatures in his vision. It;s like a supernatural power instilled in him. How does this all sound?
Are we talking Chop-sockey? Wuxia? Xianxia? Xuanhuan? Does anybody else get these powers, or does this serve as a power fantasy where once getting this he steamrolls his mortal opponents. Personally, I'd go for the "evil vet"'s group getting things like snakes and scorpion totems, while the MC gets something more inspiring like a bear or god forbid, a dragon.
 

WonderingSword5

Troubadour
To confirm... you ARE asking us to pick and poke? If not, disregard the rest.

That was my fault, sorry :(

Step father would be more likely to send him to fighting classes, even if he was abusing the kid.

That works fine. It would make better sense this way.

He'd lose his customers pretty quickly; though I suppose if they were all abusive mothers/fathers sending their kids there with the same idea as military school, that could save his business.
Abusive kung fu teacher trope works in other places because the MC desperately WANTS what they have to offer. A shy MC or mother wanting to save him from bullying would flee this school posthaste.

The MC's mother would be no angel, same like the step father. I suppose they wanted an easy way to get their son MC occupied doing something and couldn't stand hearing the complaints from school and MC was eager to join this martial arts school cause of how cool it looked. So couldn't the MC be desperate to what the kung fu school offers? The teacher vet being manipulative, even if abusive to the MC, the MC is learning cool martial arts and he's already used to the abuse from home and the kids at school, so he could see the teacher vet as some sort of mentor/father figure making him believe he's toughening him up for the reality of the world?

This could use a bit of clarification. Is the vet guy setting up a plot for story? Or is he one of those gruff asshole teddybear types?

He's the reason why the MC went down a bad path in life. The vet guy is part of the source of it. Perhaps he's done this with other students that came from abusive or dysfunctional families, sent to his school, taking full advantage where it's easier to manipulate them, because they already grew up with abuse in their households?

Does this happen in a montage? Or is it a decent portion of the story? Because there's a lot of best selling Rocky Balboa type books with that as their plot.

I was originally going to make them as flashbacks but they could easily become it's own separate story maybe, to show how his life was as a kid?

This is the story peak, I assume? the point of no return/descent into hell part of the wheel?

Yes, but they would have also been used as flashbacks, or I could save it as a separate story/prequel. But this is where his life then spiralled downhill.

belly of the whale.

Yes, pretty much.

This... sounds like the arcs of several books, but it looks like you're wanting it to all be in the same book. If you don't mind my saying so, that may be what's stopping you up.

As a side note, I don't get where these instincts you talk about come from. It's not part of the character you've described up till now.

That's what I'm thinking of doing. Turning it into a series. The main story would start him as a homeless man in his 40's. And that's where it would pick up from. His past before all this could either be flashbacks or a separate book.

The instincts would be where it hit a point to him where he's had enough. People who get harrassed on the streets, bullied, beaten or mugged and no one ever steps in to do anything, he happens to be at the right place, the right time and seeing these teens bullying this kid brought back memories and when he steps in to stop it, the teen bullies come at him aggressively, figuring he's just some old homeless man and that's when his old martial art habits suddenly kick in.

Are we talking Chop-sockey? Wuxia? Xianxia? Xuanhuan? Does anybody else get these powers, or does this serve as a power fantasy where once getting this he steamrolls his mortal opponents. Personally, I'd go for the "evil vet"'s group getting things like snakes and scorpion totems, while the MC gets something more inspiring like a bear or god forbid, a dragon.

I wasn't really thinking in terms of wuxia or any of those as they kind of come off as stereotypes. And I haven't thought of how the powers descend yet, cause I originally planned that his new good mentor's daughter had these animal spirit abilities, which his daughter inherited from the good mentor's Japanese wife. I like the bad vet's group being snakes and scorpions. It makes a lot of sense. I don't think the MC getting a dragon is good cause it might be a stereotype but the MC is supposed to be white. Not sure if a white martial arts master using a dragon symbol will cause any controversy? If not I do like it. I was originally going to have him with a lion or wolf.
 

Solusandra

Troubadour
The MC's mother would be no angel, same like the step father. I suppose they wanted an easy way to get their son MC occupied doing something and couldn't stand hearing the complaints from school
I see. That didn't come through with the OP. Thankyou.
MC was eager to join this martial arts school cause of how cool it looked. So couldn't the MC be desperate to what the kung fu school offers?
Could be, yes, depending on how you end up writing him, but the described shy kid who complains about being bullied rather than fighting back doesn't really fit with that. I'd put it at not knowing your full idea for his characterization, but as is it sounds unlikely to me. Fighting back and losing, or sullen defeat and wanting to "change his stars" are more believable. I've known a lot of people like you describe who when I offer to sponsor them at one of a dozen training halls they back off with all sorts of excuses, but the two I described jump at the chance. The former could be forced into it though.

Again, I could just not know what you were planning.
I was originally going to make them as flashbacks but they could easily become it's own separate story maybe, to show how his life was as a kid?
There are some types of readers who like that, but I and a lot of people who read my stuff very much prefer it being it's own story. I wasn't kidding about that being the entire plot of a lot of successful books and movies.
Yes, but they would have also been used as flashbacks, or I could save it as a separate story/prequel. But this is where his life then spiralled downhill.
Well, depending on how you write, or how long the story is, it could be the climax, the midpoint, or the first turn of action, so I was looking for clarification.

Yes though, I think more showing is better than telling. It's a bit difficult to balance when to use which, but my general rule of thumb is the more interesting the subject matter within the summary, the worse it is to summarize it; the more routine the subject matter is the less you should be showing it.
That's what I'm thinking of doing. Turning it into a series.
cool beans
The main story would start him as a homeless man in his 40's. And that's where it would pick up from. His past before all this could either be flashbacks or a separate book.
Hmm... separate books would be better, even if they're sold as prequels later. Starting in his 40's though, emphasize the fantasy aspects.
The instincts would be where it hit a point to him where he's had enough. People who get harrassed on the streets, bullied, beaten or mugged and no one ever steps in to do anything, he happens to be at the right place, the right time and seeing these teens bullying this kid brought back memories and when he steps in to stop it, the teen bullies come at him aggressively, figuring he's just some old homeless man and that's when his old martial art habits suddenly kick in.
instincts would be retaliatory strike then; because the background you described for him doesn't really suggest nobility.
Unless, I suppose, you're taking inspiration from the Captain America movie?
I wasn't really thinking in terms of wuxia or any of those as they kind of come off as stereotypes.
Perhaps... but they're stereotypes the Japanese and Chinese lean into when they write it.

If you don't wanna use them, that's fine, but you're not going to insult any asian people by using the tropes. Not without effort.
I don't think the MC getting a dragon is good cause it might be a stereotype but the MC is supposed to be white. Not sure if a white martial arts master using a dragon symbol will cause any controversy?
It may cause some controversy with fringe American political types. MAYBE. But if you look on amazon, there's an awful lot of white MC's using similar plots that receive no backlash beyond a small percentage of bad reviews.
 

WonderingSword5

Troubadour
I see. That didn't come through with the OP. Thankyou.

No problem.

Could be, yes, depending on how you end up writing him, but the described shy kid who complains about being bullied rather than fighting back doesn't really fit with that. I'd put it at not knowing your full idea for his characterization, but as is it sounds unlikely to me. Fighting back and losing, or sullen defeat and wanting to "change his stars" are more believable. I've known a lot of people like you describe who when I offer to sponsor them at one of a dozen training halls they back off with all sorts of excuses, but the two I described jump at the chance. The former could be forced into it though.

But couldn't a shy kid who gets bullied all the time at school and at home, suddenly not mind getting the abuse from the bad trainer vet, convincing the MC he will be some sort of tough war fighting machine martial artist? Kind of the way of how some recruits first join boot camp who could of started out shy or had been too afraid in the past of their own shadow but the drill sergeant goes hard on them, sometimes they could chicken out, but there are those who feel the empowerment of getting stronger each time? The MC would of first joined the martial arts school at age 11 or 12, having this Bad*s instructor, showing off cool moves, saying he's gonna toughen you up, with some cool Viper Academy sign with snake and maybe scorpion symbols could get the kid feeling stronger? The instructor vet's abuse and martial arts could be a false direction which leads the MC in his teens feeling overly confident, only begin to sort of catch on to the bad vet's true colors by his late teens, especially after he loses his match in the finals and is now more aware and deceived after the bad vet's reaction. So he would've gone from shy weak kid, to string but overly confident teen who was strung the wrong path (almost like the bully, the way he was treated as a kid), to then being full of defeat, misery and struggled life as he got older, to his redemption and final confrontation.

There are some types of readers who like that, but I and a lot of people who read my stuff very much prefer it being it's own story. I wasn't kidding about that being the entire plot of a lot of successful books and movies.

I agree, there are plenty of books and movies that do this that are very successful. Even similar to the Rocky movies. I can easily make them their own stories.

cool beans

Thank you. And I really appreciate the help and advice you're giving me.

Hmm... separate books would be better, even if they're sold as prequels later. Starting in his 40's though, emphasize the fantasy aspects.

I can make them separate books. I have ideas for them being prequels. Or I can just start the story in chronological order from when he first started to join Viper Kai! Just kidding :) I'd give it a different name of course. To when he was a teen in school, to his lief crashing down to homelessness, to when he discovered a new really old mentor and then it goes on from there...

If the first book starts while he was homeless in his 40's, I think this would be were the fantasy apsects can start to play a big role. Though he would just be in not the best shape right now as a normal human, taking on a bunch of punk teen bullies who were attacking some victims.

instincts would be retaliatory strike then; because the background you described for him doesn't really suggest nobility.
Unless, I suppose, you're taking inspiration from the Captain America movie?

Maybe he would come off more like some sort of anti-hero, where the bullied victim happened to be crossing his path while the punks chased him and cornered him, and the punks knocked over his food or something and that got the MC started, while he happened to defend the victim without realizing it? But the victim saw the MC as a hero as well as bystanders?

Perhaps... but they're stereotypes the Japanese and Chinese lean into when they write it.

If you don't wanna use them, that's fine, but you're not going to insult any asian people by using the tropes. Not without effort.

If I'm okay using a dragon for the MC then I probably would be fine with it. It could emphasize his change from when he used to be a student from the bad vet which symbolized snakes and scorpions, like evil serpents, he becomes more of a dragon now leading to nobility and redemption? That should help avoid any stereotypes, as usually dragons in Asian mythology are seen as good.

It may cause some controversy with fringe American political types. MAYBE. But if you look on amazon, there's an awful lot of white MC's using similar plots that receive no backlash beyond a small percentage of bad reviews.

I'll consider that. The thing is the old good mentor the MC meets when older, he had a daughter around the same age as the MC and the daughter who is half Japanese would of inherited these animal spirits from her mother's side, who was the old good mentor's wife. This could be how the MC gets the dragon spirit passed on? Though I was going to originally have it that the old mentors daughter had some kind of wolf spirit.
 

Solusandra

Troubadour
This could be how the MC gets the dragon spirit passed on? Though I was going to originally have it that the old mentors daughter had some kind of wolf spirit.
It could emphasize his change from when he used to be a student from the bad vet which symbolized snakes and scorpions, like evil serpents, he becomes more of a dragon now leading to nobility and redemption?
I like the redemption idea better, just personally. Snakes and Fish often become dragons through ascension in chinese mythos. In a redemption arc story, the inheritance from the daughter/mother would be knowledge rather than directly passing on spirits, and the changing spirit would be a passive representation of his journey/progress.
That should help avoid any stereotypes, as usually dragons in Asian mythology are seen as good.
There's also an awful lot of evil, arrogant or simply pompous dragons in Asian mythology. Dragons are symbols of yin. flowing, changing, shifting, associated with wind, water, darkness and destruction, but at the same time bringer of rains and archivers of wisdom in their secret courts beneath the sea.
But couldn't a shy kid who gets bullied all the time at school and at home, suddenly not mind getting the abuse from the bad trainer vet, convincing the MC he will be some sort of tough war fighting machine martial artist? Kind of the way of how some recruits first join boot camp who could of started out shy or had been too afraid in the past of their own shadow but the drill sergeant goes hard on them, sometimes they could chicken out, but there are those who feel the empowerment of getting stronger each time? The MC would of first joined the martial arts school at age 11 or 12, having this Bad*s instructor, showing off cool moves, saying he's gonna toughen you up, with some cool Viper Academy sign with snake and maybe scorpion symbols could get the kid feeling stronger? The instructor vet's abuse and martial arts could be a false direction which leads the MC in his teens feeling overly confident, only begin to sort of catch on to the bad vet's true colors by his late teens, especially after he loses his match in the finals and is now more aware and deceived after the bad vet's reaction. So he would've gone from shy weak kid, to string but overly confident teen who was strung the wrong path (almost like the bully, the way he was treated as a kid), to then being full of defeat, misery and struggled life as he got older, to his redemption and final confrontation.
Trapped, no way out, vet offers power and talks about toughening up so others can't keep hurting him. No where else to go but up, and that's enough motivation to work?

That could work.
 

WonderingSword5

Troubadour
Definitely redemption it is!

Snakes and Fish often become dragons through ascension in chinese mythos.

If the MC's new good mentor is skilled in the Japanese arts and his wife was Japanese, would the dragon motif still make sense if it was not Chinese?

the inheritance from the daughter/mother would be knowledge rather than directly passing on spirits, and the changing spirit would be a passive representation of his journey/progress.

So these spirits themselves would not be actual supernatural powers but just represent a form of change, showing the progression and knowledge gained? I originally planned that the drug pharma companies and tournament sponsor would want to get a hold of the MC's powers and so would his former evil mentor the bad vet teacher, after he discovers the MC's powers as well.

There's also an awful lot of evil, arrogant or simply pompous dragons in Asian mythology. Dragons are symbols of yin. flowing, changing, shifting, associated with wind, water, darkness and destruction, but at the same time bringer of rains and archivers of wisdom in their secret courts beneath the sea.

I like this. Maybe the evil bad vet teacher could represent a mix of snakes and the darkness/destruction side of dragons?

Trapped, no way out, vet offers power and talks about toughening up so others can't keep hurting him. No where else to go but up, and that's enough motivation to work?

Exactly what I had in mind :)

Is it okay that the new good guy mentor would be in his late 70's, early 80's and the MC being in his 50's? Considering this story will take place somewhere in the 2030's-40's.
Is this entire premise plausible enough that a 50 something year old MC would be taking on younger fighters in matches?

And is it plausible enough that the good guy old mentor was a hippie teen/kid in the 1960's, where he ended up in Japan, where he met his master who was Japanese?

Thanks for the feedback and help.
 
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