Ideas for 17th century characters and modern era characters for fantasy story

[WonderingSword5]

First I've been out for a while, due to a death in my family, so I've been off my writing game for a while now but I feel I need to keep on working on my writing to keep my mind focused. I have my martial art story I will be working on, but for now I want to hold off on that one and focus on these at the moment

Anyway, I had this story, which would be split into three different segments. So three short stories. One is set during the 17th century, one is set in the modern era, and one is set in the near-future.

I can't decide which protagonists should fit for which era. For the 17th century, I was thinking of focusing on this idea of a chimera samurai warrior, that ends up traveling the world in order to end a curse, and would be fighting many different foes during that time period, from many different locations in the world, different kind of fighters, swordsmen, etc.

Then there was this idea of the early 17th century idea, focusing on a warrior monk, warrior nun and warrior flagellant, all three separated at birth. The monk raised in a monastery in the Himalayas, the nun raised in some church in Holland, and the flagellant raised in a church dungeon, either in Spain or Italy. They are all half demons, their real dad would be a demonic cultist leader from the Holy Roman Empire and mother some kind of sorceress/witch from Italy during the Renaissance. But then I was thinking that they should be set in the modern era, where the monk still raised in a monastery in the Himalayas, the nun then raised in a church in somewhere near Canada/Greenland, and the flagellant raised in a church/dungeon in modern day Holland. Then instead their dad would be a full fledged demon lord and mom still a sorceress/witch, both from an altered dimension, not from earth. I don't know much about the Himalayas during the early 17th century and how a foreigner would appear being raised there at the time, which is why I'm thinking the nun/monk/flagellant would be better set modern day instead of early 17th century?

Another one would be a martial arts expert/kickboxer/mma fighter and his son raised in some monastery somewhere in the Himalayas, set in the future, both carrying a demon gene power.

I'm not sure which eras these should all be set at, any help?

 

[Rosemary Tea]

How true to history are you trying to make this?

Flagellants in the Catholic Church had their heyday well before the seventeenth century. The big parades of them flogging each other in public was a medieval thing, especially late medieval period--a cult of that arose in response to the Black Death. By the seventeenth century, self flagellation was still practiced in some religious orders, and maybe in Holy Week pageants in some places, but that was really it. In the present day, the Church no longer officially endorses it, and its practice is extremely rare.

I suppose you could create a future in which flagellation has made a comeback and the Church endorses it again. Then your flagellant character would best fit in that era. Or perhaps there's a breakaway sect that practices flagellation, mostly in secret, in protest of the Church's lack of endorsement (they want to bring it back).

 

[WonderingSword5]

How true to history are you trying to make this?

It's historical fiction, with fantasy elements.

Or perhaps there's a breakaway sect that practices flagellation, mostly in secret, in protest of the Church's lack of endorsement (they want to bring it back).

This is what I was thinking of doing. But even if it was set in the early 17th century, it could still be hold in secrecy. The idea I had was the warrior monk, warrior nun and flagellant would all be trained in secret locations, regardless of the time period. I guess what I should ask is which one would be more interesting? In the 17th century? Or in the future?

 

[skip.knox]

What attracts you to the 17th century? How much do you know about the period? If you're going to go for historical fiction, you're looking at needing a fairly deep knowledge, as readers of historical fiction can get ... er ... fussy.

The main characters sound more Asian (and not particularly historical), and I know almost nothing about 17thc Asia (which is rather a big place, I've heard). So I'm not going to attempt any sort of advice in that direction.

Instead, I'd ask what's the story? If it can be set in the past or the future equally, then the story itself must be fairly portable.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

This is what I was thinking of doing. But even if it was set in the early 17th century, it could still be hold in secrecy. The idea I had was the warrior monk, warrior nun and flagellant would all be trained in secret locations, regardless of the time period. I guess what I should ask is which one would be more interesting? In the 17th century? Or in the future?

How did your nun get to be a warrior in the Netherlands? There have never been warrior nuns in Christianity. Nor warrior monks, really. Closest thing to that is groups like the Knights Templar, who don't belong in the seventeenth century either; they were much earlier.

For a warrior nun, you'd have to turn to Shinto or Taoism (even there, they're rare), or come up with a fictional religion that includes them. That could be your future setting, if you want to invent a new religion for the future that has warrior religious orders.

 

[WonderingSword5]

What attracts you to the 17th century? How much do you know about the period?

I know that there were periods around the Renaissance, the Golden Age of piracy, the end of the Sengoku period in Japan, which are characters during those events I want to use.

Instead, I'd ask what's the story? If it can be set in the past or the future equally, then the story itself must be fairly portable.

It can be set in the future, I'd have to figure out a plausible way they could fit in. It's about three siblings separated at birth, born from a demon lord and sorceress/witch. Each sibling was born and raised in a different location. One male sibling was born and raised in a hidden monastery in Tibet/Himalayas as a warrior monk, one day the monastery temple gets raided by some group, with the monks under attack, the warrior monk fends the raiders off, while his half demon side goes berserk, killing them all, while killing his master by mistake. He then goes into hiding. The female sibling was born and raised in a isolated church on Canada or Greenland, but ends up leaving, due to an incident when the sisters realize she's no ordinary human, witnessing her almost kill another sister of the church, she ends up leaving due to the help of another nun and while hiding out, she is sound by this group and becomes part of a secret order. The flagellant was the third sibling, a male, born and raised in some kind of underground church/or cathedral, maybe in a hidden village in Germany or Holland? Which is where he was raised to hate himself and his kind for being a half demon bloodline and the master convinced him to whip an punish himself and enslave those of his kind.

Can this fit in the future? Or more like the past?

 

[WonderingSword5]

How did your nun get to be a warrior in the Netherlands? There have never been warrior nuns in Christianity. Nor warrior monks, really. Closest thing to that is groups like the Knights Templar, who don't belong in the seventeenth century either; they were much earlier.

She would not be a warrior nun from a warrior nun church. She would of first been born and raised in a church full of nuns, and while still at a young age, she's shown strange signs, showed she was a high risk to be around. Then leaves and is then found by a secret sect group of a secret order, which they find her useful and train her. The warrior monk would of been born and raised in some hidden temple in Tibet maybe or the Himalayas somewhere, so likely a taoist. I could make these religions up and the secret orders. Do they fit better in the past or future?

 

[WonderingSword5]

I guess no one likes my idea of the warrior monk, the nun and the flagellant

I know they seem like tragic antiheroes, but I like these type of characters, I can't help it. Maybe it's due to my trauma or ADD, which makes it easier for me to relate to?

Do these characters fit better in old history or the future?

 

[skip.knox]

IMO, and please take it as merely a tiny voice, the story concept is fine, but I would set it in a fantasy world. I would cheerfully plunder historical precedents for ideas, but I would not try to make it historical, not even future historical.

Here's why. You just aren't going to sell me on a warrior nun and certainly not one coming from Christianity. And because I know what the flagellants were, that won't fly either. Also, the 17thc is after the Renaissance (which latter is a flawed historical construct anyway), and pirates as a stereotype derive from even later.

However. Remove historicism from the equation and we can have plenty of fun. Now we can invent a religious construct in which there *were* warrior monks, of any gender. What sort of religion would that be? What sort of church organization would that have? Now the reasons for the conduct of characters can derive organically from the way we construct the religion. And maybe not flagellants exactly, but some cult that celebrates pain and suffering, maybe even one that can invoke magic from it. Chewy icky, but feasible.

All that said, in the end this is your story and what I or anyone else thinks of your premise should be informative or inspiration, but should never be decisive. You're the decider.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

I agree with skip.knox . None of this fits any period in real history. You've already created an alternate world by making these characters demons. Logically, if demons existed, in this particular way, history would have gone very differently. So, why not set the whole thing in an alternate universe, alternate timeline?

And don't assume no one likes your idea just because it takes a while for your posts to get responses. That's just how it is on discussion boards.

 

[WonderingSword5]

would not try to make it historical, not even future historical.

I was going to make it fantasy historical, kind of like Pirates of the Carribean, where it's fictional but takes place during real historical events.

Here's why. You just aren't going to sell me on a warrior nun and certainly not one coming from Christianity. And because I know what the flagellants were, that won't fly either. Also, the 17thc is after the Renaissance (which latter is a flawed historical construct anyway), and pirates as a stereotype derive from even later.

I was going to make up the religions but base it off of something like Christianity it could be a fictional order, which treat it like some secret religious fighting clan? And maybe she was previously a nun? Same with the flagellant, a completely made up secret society? Were there certain groups of pirates during the 1600s? Or were they not considered pirates yet at the time?

Remove historicism from the equation and we can have plenty of fun. Now we can invent a religious construct in which there *were* warrior monks, of any gender. What sort of religion would that be? What sort of church organization would that have? Now the reasons for the conduct of characters can derive organically from the way we construct the religion. And maybe not flagellants exactly, but some cult that celebrates pain and suffering, maybe even one that can invoke magic from it. Chewy icky, but feasible.

I'd like this! But do I need to make it believable? Like an altered dimension? If I could make it a secret society in the past or future, that would be good too.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

I was going to make up the religions but base it off of something like Christianity it could be a fictional order, which treat it like some secret religious fighting clan?

When you make up religions, you're creating an alternate history right there.

Were there certain groups of pirates during the 1600s? Or were they not considered pirates yet at the time?

There were, and yes, they were considered pirates. The pirate trope has its roots in reality, but it's heavily romanticized.

During that era, England and Spain were engaged in, essentially, a cold war. They were both colonizing the Americas, and in some cases both trying to establish colonies in the same parts, especially the Caribbean. This being a cold war, they didn't send soldiers against each other, they fought it mainly by pirating each other's ships. Piracy was strongly encouraged by both the English and the Spanish crowns, as long as it was against the enemy. (Not all pirates stuck to pirating the other side, though. If they didn't, that was what got the royal navy after them.)

From that we get the thoroughly fictional Pirates of the Caribbean, who only bear a minimal, superficial resemblance to the actual pirates of the Caribbean. The reality was much grimmer and grittier than the romanticized version.

I'd like this! But do I need to make it believable? Like an altered dimension? If I could make it a secret society in the past or future, that would be good too.

It can simply be another world that always was. Nothing unbelievable about that, to a fantasy reader. If we can accept Middle Earth or Narnia, what's so different about an alternate history?

 

[skip.knox]

There were also privateers, who legally were not the same as pirates.

This thread illustrates the difficulties that await you. As soon as you set your story in a particular time and place, you're going to have these annoying readers who are going to object that this or that is not historically accurate. And such inaccuracies will take those readers right out of the story.

At the same time, there will be readers who don't know and don't care and will perfectly happy with the story (assuming you tell a good one). This is not peculiar to fantasy. Many cops will tell you they don't much care for police dramas. Computer people often laugh at tech dramas. It really comes down to how much research you want to do.

I'm quite content to set my stories in an alternate version of the Middle Ages because I have degrees in medieval and in early modern history. Even so, when I wrote my first novel, Goblins at the Gates, a re-working of the Goth invasion of the Roman Empire in the 4th century, I still had my Roman history prof read the text. I do the late, not the early, Middle Ages. But when I wrote Into the Second World, set in the 19th century, I chose to go it alone. If someone objects to my treatment of Salzburg and a certain Alpine cave system, I haven't heard from them yet. Maybe I just need more readers. <g>

So I repeat: tell your story. Once you start putting pen to paper (old fashioned, me), you'll start making decisions that will steer you more in the direction of real history, or away from it. Until there are words on paper, it's all just a swirl.

 

[WonderingSword5]

When you make up religions, you're creating an alternate history right there.

But what about historical fiction where they are societies kept secret for centuries like Underworld? Or even that movie/and also game series, Assassin Creed?

During that era, England and Spain were engaged in, essentially, a cold war. They were both colonizing the Americas, and in some cases both trying to establish colonies in the same parts, especially the Caribbean. This being a cold war, they didn't send soldiers against each other, they fought it mainly by pirating each other's ships.

I could create a pirate character who was either on the British or Spanish side,(I did originally plan for a Soanish pirate in my story a while back), that obtained some secret magic, who then raided ships, not knowing who he was, like a pirate in secrecy, the way siren taleswere spread? Even legends like Blackbeard, were hard for those at the time to know what really happened?

From that we get the thoroughly fictional Pirates of the Caribbean, who only bear a minimal, superficial resemblance to the actual pirates of the Caribbean. The reality was much grimmer and grittier than the romanticized version.

I could make the darker and more grim through research. I don't have romanticize it like Pirates of the Carribean, but have them just go under the radar, covertly through magic?

It can simply be another world that always was. Nothing unbelievable about that, to a fantasy reader. If we can accept Middle Earth or Narnia, what's so different about an alternate history?

There's nothing wrong with this but could it not be plausible or believable that during the 16th/17thc, there was a hidden village in Iceland/Greenland, where a girl was adopted into a hidden church/made up religion, raised as a fictional nun, then them trying to rid her when they find out she's half demon? Or a hidden church or made up zealot cult in a hidden village in the Holy Roman Empire or the Netherlands where a half demon guy was born and raised, that was forced to punish himself like a flagellant and hate his kind? Or another half demon child, born and raised in a secret hidden Himalayan temple, where it was then burned to the ground and the half demon goes into hiding? Why can't this be kept secret, especially when no cameras, or cells existed?

 

[Rosemary Tea]

There's nothing wrong with this but could it not be plausible or believable that during the 16th/17thc, there was a hidden village in Iceland/Greenland, where a girl was adopted into a hidden church/made up religion, raised as a fictional nun, then them trying to rid her when they find out she's half demon? Or a hidden church or made up zealot cult in a hidden village in the Holy Roman Empire or the Netherlands where a half demon guy was born and raised, that was forced to punish himself like a flagellant and hate his kind? Or another half demon child, born and raised in a secret hidden Himalayan temple, where it was then burned to the ground and the half demon goes into hiding? Why can't this be kept secret, especially when no cameras, or cells existed?

Like what skip.knox said, if you set your story in an actual historical period, you'll get readers complaining about historical inaccuracies in your story, to the point that they can't really enjoy it. If you tell the reader from the outset that this is an entirely fictional world, they don't bother quibbling, just jump into the fictional world. And then you're free to put anything you like in your story without irritating the more pedantic readers.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

But what about historical fiction where they are societies kept secret for centuries like Underworld? Or even that movie/and also game series, Assassin Creed?

Those works don't deviate as far from actual history as what you're proposing. Their secret societies fit into the framework of the religion and culture that actually existed, without tweaking too much of the real history to be believable. But in your proposed work, you've got a flagellant who lives well past the time when flagellants were a thing (even if you put him in the seventeenth century, it's still too late an era) and a warrior nun from a Christian country and a warrior monk who sounds more like a character from a video game than like any actual monk, East or West, and they're all demons to boot, and they're siblings born in different centuries on top of that. One of those pieces might fly, but all of that in the same story calls for too much suspension of disbelief.

That problem can easily be solved by making it an alternate world.

 

[WonderingSword5]

This thread illustrates the difficulties that await you. As soon as you set your story in a particular time and place, you're going to have these annoying readers who are going to object that this or that is not historically accurate. And such inaccuracies will take those readers right out of the story.

I see now. So if I set in in the near-future or far-future, where secret organizations have developed and keep themselves contained from society?

when I wrote my first novel, Goblins at the Gates, a re-working of the Goth invasion of the Roman Empire in the 4th century, I still had my Roman history prof read the text. I do the late, not the early, Middle Ages. But when I wrote Into the Second World, set in the 19th century, I chose to go it alone. If someone objects to my treatment of Salzburg and a certain Alpine cave system, I haven't heard from them yet. Maybe I just need more readers. <g>

Was it easier to write fictional events in the 19th century? That's when a lot of fictional fanatsy stories were written too?

Once you start putting pen to paper (old fashioned, me), you'll start making decisions that will steer you more in the direction of real history, or away from it

I should write it in pen and paper, I may be able to focus the ideas better

 

[WonderingSword5]

If you tell the reader from the outset that this is an entirely fictional world, they don't bother quibbling, just jump into the fictional world. And then you're free to put anything you like in your story without irritating the more pedantic readers.

I could go with a altered fantasy world, but what if I set it in the future? Like that comic series and show Warrior Nun? I think that is set in the present or future, where an organization has nuns trained to fight.

Their secret societies fit into the framework of the religion and culture that actually existed, without tweaking too much of the real history to be believable.

I got it now, seems my characters during the events I proposed, are each from different timeline, in order to even be at least more believable, I could set them during the 14th century, around the time of the Black Death? Flagellants were still a thing, and even if it was a hidden flagellant in some dungeon, it would still be more believable than one hidden in the 17th century? I know nuns were not warriors, unless she was a warrior saint at the time? She could of disguised herself as a man to be a religious knight? What secret orders, where a woman could have concealed her identity, existed in the 14th century?

a warrior monk who sounds more like a character from a video game than like any actual monk, East or West, and they're all demons to boot, and they're siblings born in different centuries on top of that. One of those pieces might fly, but all of that in the same story calls for too much suspension of disbelief.

It does sound cartoonish I admit For the monk, I was thinking similar to how Dr. Strange and Batman were trained in a hidden temple in that region (at least in some variations of Batman), I know not the best examples and comes off a bit cartoonish, but it would be like a society that keeps their identity very discreet. Maybe I could benefit with setting this in the future or present like Warrior Nun and Supernatural?

 

[Rosemary Tea]

Maybe I could benefit with setting this in the future or present like Warrior Nun and Supernatural?

If you set it in the present, it's an alternate present. One way or another, you have to account for the presence of several religious orders that don't match anything in actual existence and demons in human form. For those things to exist, history has to have gone rather differently.

In the future, theoretically anything could be true, as long as you set it far enough in the future. New religions could conceivably have arisen, so the fighting monastics you're envisioning don't require any great suspension of disbelief. But you still have to account for the presence of demon people. Did they always exist? If so, why weren't they known of in our time and before? Or did they come into being later? Is there a demon origin story set sometime after our time?

You might remember that Potterverse takes the first tack: wizards and witches have always existed, but they've kept themselves mostly isolated from the Muggle world since the late Middle Ages, and Muggles are very poor at recognizing them. That's all the accounting needed. But if Hogwarts were inside a muggle monastery, belonging to a religious order of ninjas in Scotland... well, that would be a bit too far fetched and too much to account for.

 

[WonderingSword5]

In the future, theoretically anything could be true, as long as you set it far enough in the future. New religions could conceivably have arisen, so the fighting monastics you're envisioning don't require any great suspension of disbelief. But you still have to account for the presence of demon people. Did they always exist? If so, why weren't they known of in our time and before? Or did they come into being later? Is there a demon origin story set sometime after our time?

If I go with this, does that mean it would have to be set in the far-future to be more believable? Or even set in the near-future? And I was going to say that the warrior nun-inspired, the flagellant-inspired and the warrior monk-inspired three siblings, were each separated at birth and sent to each secret order. Demons have existed for centuries, but there birth dad would of either been a demon lord from an underworld, or a demonic cultist leader, so I'm not sure how to play it out, but I was thinking of going with the birth dad being an actual demon lord, because the birth mom was a human witch/sorceress.

You might remember that Potterverse takes the first tack: wizards and witches have always existed, but they've kept themselves mostly isolated from the Muggle world since the late Middle Ages, and Muggles are very poor at recognizing them. That's all the accounting needed. But if Hogwarts were inside a muggle monastery, belonging to a religious order of ninjas in Scotland... well, that would be a bit too far fetched and too much to account for.

Correct, which is why these secret orders would each be in secret locations, even if set in the far-future, I feel it will play more safe this way. If this was in the future, would it be more believable if the nun-like warrior half-demon female was from a secret religious order set somewhere in Canada or Greenland? I figure a more isolated location would work better for them. Same with the flagellant, a secret order, where flagellant-like beings are trained under to supposedly fight demons, and being this flagellant-like sibling is half-demon, he's taught to hate what he is and kill it using his own powers. I was thinking a hidden area in the Netherlands, but maybe not the most believable in the future? Perhaps on Easter Island or Siberia?
And the warrior monk-inspired sibling who's also half-demon, would it make better sense if the monastery he was raised in the Himalayas was teaching all forms of combat? I know that most people will think of kung fu and China, but it's just a secret location meant for a good hiding place to teach martial arts so can it be any kind of martial arts and magic training?