Languages

[pmmg]

Close enough...

But all communication is metaphor. For me, the problem is, before I can have a metaphor, I must first have a language. It would still be suitable to use.

Darmok - Wikipedia

 

[Queshire]

Huh, that was a neat episode. I suppose that was one of the only ways to do a language barrier episode after establishing that all the aliens in the galaxy can talk with each other thanks to a universal translator.

 

[Queshire]

Not that I'll defend the series that gave us the origin of the planet of hats, but that does give some interesting inspiration for creating a language. You could treat the different parts as modifiers. So, say, for something more familiar for us, Loki slaying the dragon might mean fighting with cunning and trickery while Thor slaying the dragon might mean fighting up front with brute strength.

 

[Ned Marcus]

I read once that languages differ considerably in the ability of native speakers to follow a conversation that they have not heard from the beginning. I think that Japanese is like this: a native Japanese speaker can overhear two others having a conversation but may have no idea what they are talking about. Japanese is thus apparently a "high-context" language. English, on the other hand, is "low-context". For fantasy writing, it might be a fun idea for two characters to speak a language that is so high-context that literally no one else can understand what they are saying at all (not even individual words) without being told by the characters themselves.

I'd not heard this before, either. I'll have to quiz some of my Japanese speaking friends. I think it's a great idea for a fantasy language!

 

[pmmg]

Not that I'll defend the series that gave us the origin of the planet of hats, but that does give some interesting inspiration for creating a language. You could treat the different parts as modifiers. So, say, for something more familiar for us, Loki slaying the dragon might mean fighting with cunning and trickery while Thor slaying the dragon might mean fighting up front with brute strength.

Even more nonsensical. More
Like dragon slaying loki.

 

[Queshire]

Someone attempting to be cunning and tricky only to get hoisted by their own petard.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I read once that languages differ considerably in the ability of native speakers to follow a conversation that they have not heard from the beginning. I think that Japanese is like this: a native Japanese speaker can overhear two others having a conversation but may have no idea what they are talking about. Japanese is thus apparently a "high-context" language. English, on the other hand, is "low-context".

If you're interested in this sort of thing, you should read The Culture Map, by Erin Meyer. It's an analysis of how different cultures interact with each other and with other cultures. And a lot is about language. It's a fascinating read, and explains things like high-context and low-context cultures (and thus language), but also things like deference to authority, social interactions etc. It's a treasure trove for fantasy authors looking for worldbuilding help.

As for Latin, it's little to no help learning other languages. Yes, it's the root language for Roman languages, but that doesn't help one bit. If you want to learn French, just learn French, don't bother starting with Latin. Source: I've learned both French and Latin (as well as English). If you want to learn latin, go ahead. They've got loads of fun stories. But do it for that, not because you plan on actually using it for anything.

 

[pmmg]

As for Latin, it's little to no help learning other languages. Yes, it's the root language for Roman languages, but that doesn't help one bit. If you want to learn French, just learn French, don't bother starting with Latin. Source: I've learned both French and Latin (as well as English). If you want to learn latin, go ahead. They've got loads of fun stories. But do it for that, not because you plan on actually using it for anything.

I dont think its about assisting with learning others, its about it being the root. There are many words I dont know in other languages that I can, with effort, translate simply because I know the root words they sprang from.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I dont think its about assisting with learning others, its about it being the root. There are many words I dont know in other languages that I can, with effort, translate simply because I know the root words they sprang from.

The thing is though, that all that time you spend learning Latin words could also be spend on learning the actual French or Spanish words instead. Which is infinitely more useful if you're actually trying to learn French or Spanish. Being able to translate something with effort helps very little when speaking or even reading a different language. It can help decipher an inscription on an old building, but that's about as far as you can get with it. It's way more helpful to know 2000 French words when trying to read a French text, than to know 1000 French words and 1000 Latin words which may or may not be vaguely similar to the French words.

As you learn more languages you'll start seeing similarities without knowing the root words. And they help, since they help you anchor a word's meaning in your brain. But for that it doesn't matter if it's the root word or if it's just a similar word. If I look at a Scandinavian text, then I can understand some words because they're vaguely similar to their Dutch counterpart. But I don't know any proto-germanic at all.

 

[pmmg]

Cant argue with that. To learn any of them, id have to spend time and energy. Which i wont. Id rather spend that on book 4.

I did start off saying spanish would be the most useful but its one i have the smallest amount of interest in.

 

[skip.knox]

Learning a language isn't just one thing. When I learned Latin, it helped me immensely with English grammar. I learned about things like declension and conjugation. I learned parts of speech. I suspect I was taught these things in public school, but that education was largely wasted on me. More generally, I learned how words were put together. For example, once one learns the difference between per- and pro- as prefixes, a whole range of words sort themselves out. Perfectly.

Many of the comments here are mainly about conversations. That's another aspect of learning a language, but hardly the only one. My German was specifically courses in *reading* German. It wasn't conversational at all. I jumped on those classes because I needed German for my research. Once through grad school, I tried my hand at reading a German novel, at reading German magazines, and such. It became immediately apparent there were several valleys of difference between reading academic writing and popular writing.

I would suggest that learning any language is an aid to learning another, and that learning a second language facilitates learning a third. This is less true when jumping linguistic divides (e.g., going from a Romance to a Germanic language, and from either to a Eurasian language), but it still holds. One learns core approaches.

But language divides in another direction, as I intimated above. There's conversational, there's reading, and then there's writing. It's one thing to learn well enough to order a meal (or ask for water), and quite another to be able to write poetry, listen to a pop song, or catch the nuances of a regional dialect.

Learning an language isn't just one thing.

 

[Ned Marcus]

Many of the comments here are mainly about conversations. That's another aspect of learning a language, but hardly the only one. My German was specifically courses in *reading* German. It wasn't conversational at all. I jumped on those classes because I needed German for my research. Once through grad school, I tried my hand at reading a German novel, at reading German magazines, and such. It became immediately apparent there were several valleys of difference between reading academic writing and popular writing.

Once (if) I get good enough at Spanish and Mandarin, German will probably be the next language I learn, and reading will be my main motivation, although, Latin has some pretty good stuff to read, too.