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Loading a bow

CupofJoe

Myth Weaver
I have had a looks [probably not deep or wide enough] to find any historical references to how to use/prepare pre-gunpowder siege weapons...
Does anyone know the commands/orders given in the operation of engines as diverse as Trebuchet or Ballista?
At home I have my copy of Vitruvius' De Architectura but I think that is just about making them...
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
Yeah, I just meant to say that no one would probably be calling out "nock, draw, loose" on either a battlefield or hunting...I mean, it's rather an action without words for a solitary hunter or a hunting party, or in a life-or-death situation. An archer, trained and familiar with his weapon would call it "nocking" his arrow. To further aid you in your quest for wording, I'll post a small sample of my thoughts as I shoot:

I pull an arrow from my belt and slide the nock against the string. A couple quick twists with my right index and middle finger. My ring finger is there to but my callouses speak loud enough that it does little work compared to the other two. Forty yards and a small target. I look down the arrow and adjust for distance by bringing my left knuckles up a touch. I can feel the string in the nock and twist again, just a little so it feels tighter. I loose the arrow. Silent, it soars toward the hay bale. Miss. Yep, should have aimed higher.

Ha! That's pretty much me encountering a stationary target at forty yards. But I shoot a 25# bow and you have to aim really high or you miss with that poundage.

You don't nock a bow, you nock an arrow. The bow isn't the weapon unless you're using it as a staff to hit someone. And that may wreck your bow. Arrows are finicky, some being better fletched than others. I have a few favorites and depending on the distance of the targets, I select heavier points or lighter ones. Certain arrows I shoot have heavier points and those penetrate certain materials better but can get stuck in others and come off. Nothing hurts like losing a few expensive points in an afternoon and not having enough to glue back on. I'd rather lose a tournament than break my best arrows on metal target frames, lose bodkin points in thick styrofoam, or lose arrows in deep gorges where I can'f find or retrieve them. When you make your own arrows, you learn quickly to take good care of them.
 

Russ

Istar
I have had a looks [probably not deep or wide enough] to find any historical references to how to use/prepare pre-gunpowder siege weapons...
Does anyone know the commands/orders given in the operation of engines as diverse as Trebuchet or Ballista?
At home I have my copy of Vitruvius' De Architectura but I think that is just about making them...

I can look later when I get home, but for that sort of thing I would always look first to De Re Militaria by Vegitius.
 

Russ

Istar
It is not just a good Roman source it is also a very good medieval one as it was a standard military text for the period. Medieval military leaders were know to carry parts of it or summaries of it with them to the battle field as "crib notes."
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
Why do we never see that in movies? I mean, it's such a tactical thing, war, yet when we see it, we're led to believe brave soldiers line up and take a look at their enemy's formation, and generals shout orders out for all to hear, and then the charge. Footmen clash, arrows fly. Horses fall when their riders have been shot. Everyone's screaming war cries. There's plenty of distance between everyone so they can brazenly swing their swords for maximum arc and cleave. The POV character will slay fifty foes while most soldiers die on first impact. Oh man... I wish I knew more about actual battle. This is why I do not write battles. And if I do, I write from one POV and keep the view tight, immediate area only.

I'm going to remember that leaders talking tactics and consulting manuals happens and that war isn't something anyone's got experience with until they do. And then it's a little real, quicker than they might have liked. Thanks for talking about manuals.
 

Russ

Istar
Why do we never see that in movies? I mean, it's such a tactical thing, war, yet when we see it, we're led to believe brave soldiers line up and take a look at their enemy's formation, and generals shout orders out for all to hear, and then the charge. Footmen clash, arrows fly. Horses fall when their riders have been shot. Everyone's screaming war cries. There's plenty of distance between everyone so they can brazenly swing their swords for maximum arc and cleave. The POV character will slay fifty foes while most soldiers die on first impact. Oh man... I wish I knew more about actual battle. This is why I do not write battles. And if I do, I write from one POV and keep the view tight, immediate area only.

I'm going to remember that leaders talking tactics and consulting manuals happens and that war isn't something anyone's got experience with until they do. And then it's a little real, quicker than they might have liked. Thanks for talking about manuals.

If you want to understand how war really happens you have to read Keegan's the Face of Battle. He is probably the top military historian of the last couple of generations and this book has revolutionized how historians approach military history...for the better!

There is also a journal of medieval military history that deals with these issues pretty well, called, oddly enough De Re Militaria...

De Re Militari » The Society for Medieval Military History

Or if you are really desperate you can always shoot me a note. Battles really can be tricky to write.
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
Thanks Russ. I'll keep that in mind. I don't write battles because I'm a firm believer in sticking with what you know. While I understand that can be an overwhelmingly limiting concept if taken to the extreme, I mean it simply as this: If I want to write a character involved in a battle, I select a POV or a task that isn't um...watching the battle play out in intricacy from the tower. Right? My character may run powder kegs to gunners on a ship. He may be an archer caught behind a cavalry. He may be a werewolf fighting a weird monster summoned from beyond the realm, while his friends deal with the soldiers. I steer clear of battles like Helm's Deep because I haven't a chance of writing it to any passable level.

I think the few fights I've written have been brawls rather than battles, but that's okay. They work for my stories so far. I will however keep in mind that you're good at that sort of thing and if I ever need feedback on a scene or planning help (actually one comes to mind now, a siege on a fortified keep) I'll hit you up for some help.

Yep...that one keep scene is tricky. May be why it sucks and I don't try to fix it.
 

goldhawk

Troubadour
Why do we never see that in movies? I mean, it's such a tactical thing, war, yet when we see it, we're led to believe brave soldiers line up and take a look at their enemy's formation, and generals shout orders out for all to hear, and then the charge. Footmen clash, arrows fly. Horses fall when their riders have been shot. Everyone's screaming war cries. There's plenty of distance between everyone so they can brazenly swing their swords for maximum arc and cleave. The POV character will slay fifty foes while most soldiers die on first impact. Oh man... I wish I knew more about actual battle. This is why I do not write battles. And if I do, I write from one POV and keep the view tight, immediate area only.

That's Hollywood's version. The reason why Rome became an empire was because its soldiers did not break formation during battle. Since then, for most battles, the side that broke formation first, loses.
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
One of the best descriptions of battle I've ever read comes from Tolstoy, his account of the Battle of Borodino is brilliant. In particular, he's at pains to show how little commanders know about what is happening in the field during battle. Some of that is due to the use of very smoky firearms (Napoleonic Wars), but his central point is compelling. Yes, commanders issue orders, but that often has little to do with what happens in the field.

I second the recommendations on Keegan, Vegetius, and De Re Militarii (which was off-line for a long time but is back now). And one more, which is the work done by Steve Muhlberger on various aspects of late medieval chivalric combat. Oh, and Jim Bradbury's book on the medieval archer.

As for what was said on the actual battlefield, as with so much else medieval, we don't know. Nobody wrote down that sort of thing. For all we know, it was "ready, point, let go!" ... "do it again but faster!" :)
 

goldhawk

Troubadour
As for what was said on the actual battlefield, as with so much else medieval, we don't know. Nobody wrote down that sort of thing. For all we know, it was "ready, point, let go!" ... "do it again but faster!" :)

Actually, we do know. The same commands used in drill would be used on the battlefield. If not, there would be too much confusion. The difficulty lies in determine what commands were used. They could be different with every commander.
 

Russ

Istar
Thanks Russ. I'll keep that in mind. I don't write battles because I'm a firm believer in sticking with what you know. While I understand that can be an overwhelmingly limiting concept if taken to the extreme, I mean it simply as this: If I want to write a character involved in a battle, I select a POV or a task that isn't um...watching the battle play out in intricacy from the tower. Right? My character may run powder kegs to gunners on a ship. He may be an archer caught behind a cavalry. He may be a werewolf fighting a weird monster summoned from beyond the realm, while his friends deal with the soldiers. I steer clear of battles like Helm's Deep because I haven't a chance of writing it to any passable level.

I wish more people would think like you do. I read (and see) a lot of bad combat.

I also tend to write battles from the "worm's eye" view, as it is much more personal and I think that is what readers want, identification and immediacy. If I am going to give the big picture I tend to do it in conversations of meetings either before or after the battle.
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
@ Russ EXACTLY! I mean, why should I feel the need to write a battle from bird's eye view when my POV is a scared seventeen-year-old archer who's just seeing his first real combat? His experiences are authentic, his view startlingly real to himself. Now that I can write. I've been in combat in that sense.

But I'll tell you what, when you're in a group of three or five in the woods, on muddy terrain, and you see two guys with swords in front of you, your leader says, "let's go," and you GO. You know what your sword is doing. You are watching out the corner of your eye for anyone flanking. You are protecting the guy next to you's left arm. That's as big as the "battle" is to you. And that's how I write it. On a few brief occasions (like when you kill those opponents and have a moment to catch your breath and look around) you may see more groups engaged and sometimes you can even yell a warning to your friends who are being flanked. You may even have an opportunity to save them. But when you're in a combat, the window is incredibly small and mostly the view you get to take in is the battlefield before you begin, and the battlefield once it's over.
 

Fyle

Inkling
It's a little odd when people are giving detailed reasons why you shouldn't use a word, and your response is that it's "100% understandable meaning wise".

All I meant was, if someone said to someone else in real life, "load the bow," most likely the other person would just do it and not question the language, no?

So, in certain contexts, especially modern, seems like this would not be such a major writing offense. Say, in the Hunger Games for example, a futuristic setting where I don't think the characters are going to think so hard as to find the correct term for Katniss to string back an arrow and take a shot. If one of those militant type players yelled "load your bow," I don't think it would be out of charcter being who the character is, and the time period when bows are not the most common word used. A character like this, a less intelligent militant type may just use the word "load" for ease.

If Legolas said, "wait, let me load my bow, Sam!" it would seem out of place and awkward. It would be hard for the reader to understand why that term is used and for the character he is talking too. Bows are common in the times before technology and have less leeway in how they are described.

That's what I meant, if that makes more sense. I also thought, that's what Caged Maiden was getting at. Ya, the term 100% understandable is a bit lazy.

But you see how a simple question creates a good thread of back and forth?
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
@goldhawk: how do we know? I'm keen for some references. I'm talking prior to the 17thc. Maybe we are crossing our centuries.
 

Ireth

Myth Weaver
I dunno, "load the bow" reads/sounds really weird to me, and doesn't quite make sense. I much prefer "nock an arrow".

/2cents
 

Fyle

Inkling
I dunno, "load the bow" reads/sounds really weird to me, and doesn't quite make sense. I much prefer "nock an arrow".

/2cents

Ya, it's technically wrong. I never thought about it that hard before. In the setting which fits the theme of this forum, it should not be used.

Can you load a quiver ?

Pretty long discussion for a quick question.
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
>Pretty long discussion for a quick question.

When people tell me they have a "quick question" I sometimes answer with "how do you know?" I figure they were just *hoping* it would be quick.
 

Russ

Istar
@ Russ EXACTLY! I mean, why should I feel the need to write a battle from bird's eye view when my POV is a scared seventeen-year-old archer who's just seeing his first real combat? His experiences are authentic, his view startlingly real to himself. Now that I can write. I've been in combat in that sense.

But I'll tell you what, when you're in a group of three or five in the woods, on muddy terrain, and you see two guys with swords in front of you, your leader says, "let's go," and you GO. You know what your sword is doing. You are watching out the corner of your eye for anyone flanking. You are protecting the guy next to you's left arm. That's as big as the "battle" is to you. And that's how I write it. On a few brief occasions (like when you kill those opponents and have a moment to catch your breath and look around) you may see more groups engaged and sometimes you can even yell a warning to your friends who are being flanked. You may even have an opportunity to save them. But when you're in a combat, the window is incredibly small and mostly the view you get to take in is the battlefield before you begin, and the battlefield once it's over.

Well said. Although if anyone would have a good view of a battle it could be the well placed archer.

And I can tell you from personal experience that the window can get much smaller depending on the helmet you are wearing. :)
 
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