Magic system complexity

[GM4LSWC94]

Hi Everyone!

I have been working on a magic system for my story and I feel I'm being to make it difficult to follow. The plot is magic heavy so I have a hard system. Basically I have two forms of high magic, 4 lesser magics and one evil magic. I am curious to know what others do when creating a magic system? My plot is complex so I don't want to cause information overload to anyone who reads it but also have the magic system complex enough to maintain interest and convey it's importance in the world. As always any pointers and advice are appreciated. Thank you!

-Shane

 

[pmmg]

My magic system is not complex and not very well explained. It is not dissimilar to ley lines. Only there are some places where it has pooled. Most characters cannot access it. Access has a lot to do with race. The earlier races are more magic prone than the more recent ones. Also the pools get exhausted so its not fixed.

There are no hard rules. Its not like spells have levels, or this type of mage can use these spells and another uses those spells. If its available characters could attempt anything. But some use it in different ways.

But magic is not heavily featured. No one uses it as their only tool and its use is usually a small thing with big effects. Like dropping a match which grows to a forest fire.

Magic is just a part of the whole and not really the focus of the story.

 

[Insolent Lad]

I kept the basic premise of my magic (in my primary world) fairly simple—the inherited ability of some individuals to see into and access other worlds. It is the many ramifications of this that add complexity, especially in that much of what happens is not fully understood by wizards. Their knowledge (and even that of the gods) is largely empirical. But, of course, I know why things work!

 

[CrystalD]

For me,I have a super basic magic system that is just there to explain why characters can do certain things. It's a more character based story though, and if you're story is mor plot base you may want to expand your magic system into something mor like yours. It's honestly a story to story thing I think, because I don't think having an in depth magic system y is a bad thing. If you bog the reader down with too much detail in one go, then I could see that beingan issue. If you spread the in depth detail throughout the story, it totaly can work and no amount of detail is too much if you pace it correctly.

 

[Mad Swede]

OK, how much of it do you need to explain to the reader? Yes, you as the author need to know how it all works just to keep things consistent within the story, but your readers may not need to know. It depends on how much focus there is on magic and how much you focus on the characters, their various story arcs and the overall plot.

 

[ThinkerX]

Hi Everyone!

I have been working on a magic system for my story and I feel I'm being to make it difficult to follow. The plot is magic heavy so I have a hard system. Basically I have two forms of high magic, 4 lesser magics and one evil magic. I am curious to know what others do when creating a magic system? My plot is complex so I don't want to cause information overload to anyone who reads it but also have the magic system complex enough to maintain interest and convey it's importance in the world. As always any pointers and advice are appreciated. Thank you!

-Shane

Originally, my 'magic system' was the AD&D magic system. That system didn't translate well to storytelling - the whole memorization and level thing, plus other stuff. So, went an adopted another system - the one used in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. Better, but not good enough. Finally, years after I stopped with the RPG's, I sat down and thought things through from scratch.

I wanted a system that would work in a fantasy setting - and seem at least somewhat plausible in the real world. So, I read book after book about paranormal phenomena and people who displayed strange abilities. Books by skeptics, by investigators, and practitioners (most of whom had axes to grind with each other.) Finally, I came up with this:

Once upon a time, there were the 'ancient aliens' - people not even remotely human, or humanoid. These aliens were both naturally psychic and technologically advanced. Operating their tech required psychic ability. These aliens went and terraformed several planets (aka future fantasy worlds). Thousands of years later, they began importing other races as servants, pets, and experimental subjects. One of these imported races were humans, who were just getting into the whole agriculture thing.

More time passed. The alien's numbers declined. To keep the wheels turning, they needed a technician class. These technicians needed psionic ability. Humans (and goblins, another primitive alien race) were not normally psionic, but there were exceptions. The ancient aliens did some research and managed to 'implant' psionic ability into the genome of selected humans, goblins, and others. These people became their new technician caste. Sometime after that - about 3500 years ago - the alien civilization all but imploded. Isolated alien enclaves and city states remained functional, but in decline. Many of their subject races became independent. The psionic technicians in these independent groups became the first wizards. Even in decline, though the aliens continued to import humans and others, imbuing many with psionic ability, right up until their civilization failed completely not quite 2000 years ago. Anymore, the aliens are little more than myths.

That is the origin. Now, as to what these 'wizards' can do...

It mostly comes down to mind, body, and world.

'Mind' translates to things like knowledge - remote viewing, object reading, that sort of thing. It also includes 'mental influence' - hypnotism on steroids. Illusions - sort of psionic trickery, also falls into this category.

'Body' - or maybe more accurately 'Life' - generally means healing, or disciplines that can affect living things - promoting plant growth, inducing strength and speed (think person flipping over a car).

'World' abilities affect inanimate objects. Mostly, this is variations of telekinesis, the use of subtle mental forces to levitate objects and jigger locks, that sort of thing. It also includes 'fixing spells' that act as glue or lubricants or some such, along with pyrokinesis.

Two other specialized niches are worth bringing up here - teleportation, essentially a combination of Mind and World spells; and summoning, the calling of potent (Lovecraftian) entities from other dimensions.

A typical wizard of middling ability will have strong knacks in two or three abilities, and much weaker skill at two or three others spread across all these.

 

[Prince of Spires]

The plot is magic heavy so I have a hard system.

These two are not necessarily connected. A hard magic system just means there are clear rules about that magic system. You can have a hard magic system that isn't a big influence on the plot and you can have a soft magic system that is very plot relevant. All that matters to the reader is that they understand the part of the magic system that is relevant to the plot. The Harry Potter plots are very dependent on magic, but they still have a soft magic system overall. Only, the parts that are needed to for the plot are explained in places (surprisingly, most of the relevant magic is somehow taught in school in the year it's used. Either that or Hermioni finds it in the library).

If I were you I would see how the different magic systems are connected. Either rule-wise or thematically. This helps with understanding what's going on and makes for a more coherent world. What's the difference between High and Lesser magic? Why are there 2 and 4? How is evil magic different from the others? But most importantly, how do they tie together? What are their similarities? Where do they come from? Star Wars has 2 magic systems (and some technomagic that powers all technology). The Dark and Light side of the force are similar, but one leans into your dark emotions while the other appeals to your noble side. That ties them together, and it grants them different abilities (somewhat).

 

[Demesnedenoir]

My system is complex, but since the characters don't really understand its truth, the reader can only learn what they know. And most characters know nothing, heh heh.

 

[Finchbearer]

When I’ve read fantasy books the annoyance I have had is when the long piece of string becomes endless and when the author has forgotten the limits of the system they outlayed in the first place, especially when you end up thinking ‘if this character has this power, then the story could have been concluded 500 pages ago!!’

I’m also finding that I’m having to make my own magic system restrictive for the purpose of the story, it’s like finding those edges, or else it is in theory limitless and gets messy.

 

[GM4LSWC94]

Just wanted to say thank you to everyone for the replies and the advice. Since I joined this site I feel like I have a seen an improvement in my writing and I am writing a lot more also. I appreciate it very much!

 

[ThinkerX]

My system is complex, but since the characters don't really understand its truth, the reader can only learn what they know. And most characters know nothing, heh heh.

I'd wondered about magic in your world. Seems to be well known in some places, yet practically unheard of in others. The 'crossing the bridge scene' in 'Trail of Pyres' had me going - 'uh, don't these idiots *know* they are dealing with wizards?'

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Mmm, they are not wizards; that's the first important distinction. Their power is being directly channeled through prayer. The Pantheon of Sol is powerful (not like during the God Wars, but relative to most other religions) so the Tek are woefully unprepared for what's about to hit them. The world is hitting a New Era after the Eve of Snows, most people just don't know it yet. The artifact being wielded is also wicked and dates from the Age of God Wars. The Tek pantheon is missing their king and his first and second queen and is basically in the midst of a civil war. In a sense, this mirrors the Tek nations, who while populous are a "hundred nations". Tek priests are not without powers, but compared to Meliu they are not simply weaker, but different. The Face is powerful, but he's not In Your Face powerful, so to speak. Meliu and Eliles are "one in a thousand" priests and priests are one in a thousand of the general populous. Most people with their power would either incinerate themselves (Eliles) or drive themselves into madness (Meliu) with Elemental Dark. In fact, it's probable that Meliu would be bug-eating insane by now if she'd try to channel so much power before the Eve of Snows. Nobody gets just how and how much the world is changing.

Eliles may or may not be a "sorcerer" in the sense that she doesn't pull her powers from the gods... or does she? The Vanquished Gods are real, no matter what the Woodkin might believe/say.

Oh, the Edan don't really have a deep understanding of magic either, but it's better than most. The Great Forgetting wasn't an accident. Gersvoresh'Kûmjotu-kî is one of a few beings in the world who has a grasp of what's going on, and there is one people who also get it, but they haven't been seen since the Great Forgetting. I've got a hundred clues scattered around the text, but there's a lot of books to go before it comes together.

 

[ThinkerX]

Mmm, they are not wizards; that's the first important distinction. Their power is being directly channeled through prayer. The Pantheon of Sol is powerful (not like during the God Wars, but relative to most other religions) so the Tek are woefully unprepared for what's about to hit them. The world is hitting a New Era after the Eve of Snows, most people just don't know it yet. The artifact being wielded is also wicked and dates from the Age of God Wars. The Tek pantheon is missing their king and his first and second queen and is basically in the midst of a civil war. In a sense, this mirrors the Tek nations, who while populous are a "hundred nations". Tek priests are not without powers, but compared to Meliu they are not simply weaker, but different. The Face is powerful, but he's not In Your Face powerful, so to speak. Meliu and Eliles are "one in a thousand" priests and priests are one in a thousand of the general populous. Most people with their power would either incinerate themselves (Eliles) or drive themselves into madness (Meliu) with Elemental Dark. In fact, it's probable that Meliu would be bug-eating insane by now if she'd try to channel so much power before the Eve of Snows. Nobody gets just how and how much the world is changing.

Eliles may or may not be a "sorcerer" in the sense that she doesn't pull her powers from the gods... or does she? The Vanquished Gods are real, no matter what the Woodkin might believe/say.

Oh, the Edan don't really have a deep understanding of magic either, but it's better than most. The Great Forgetting wasn't an accident. Gersvoresh'Kûmjotu-kî is one of a few beings in the world who has a grasp of what's going on, and there is one people who also get it, but they haven't been seen since the Great Forgetting. I've got a hundred clues scattered around the text, but there's a lot of books to go before it comes together.

I figured the 'Great Forgetting' was no accident. Strong suspicion is that the alternative was even worse...as in equivalent of 'hell on Earth' worse. I figure there could be hell to pay should certain long-lived folks regain their memories.

I did consider the Gods to be more 'explanation' than 'actuality.' Given your description, I could see a deity or ten deciding to enhance/alter/revoke certain of their followers' abilities.

As to my worlds...

Magical talent (psionic ability) is mostly, though not entirely hereditary in my worlds - the whole genetic manipulation thing by the ancient aliens. Sometimes the talent skips a generation or five, and there are flukes who just appear out of nowhere (or no known lineage) with arcane ability. There are also (extremely dangerous) events and substances that might grant an ordinary person paranormal ability. All told...probably one person in five thousand has enough psychic ability to be worth training. Most never do; they go through life with a reputation for being lucky or really good with animals or some such. Even if trained, most of them still wouldn't amount to much, 'magically' speaking. Actual trained wizards...maybe one in ten thousand of the populace as a whole, if that.

 

[Jason]

I built what you might call an alternative science rather than a magic system. So, for example, instead of a fireball-type spell or gunpowder, the weapons of my Renaissance world use 'blastsalt' - a crystalline explosive that produces a lot of steam. It was difficult to avoid dry passages when introducing this new stuff but little side stories often did the trick.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

I usually start with a simple concept and then expand on it. So for my most recent work I looked at the concept of binding - basically taking the blood of a mythical creature into your own body - and then asked myself what would be the effects on the person - their body, their psyche and their magic both of taking the blood of a particular creature. My MC took unicorn blood and so since the unicorns are about freedom and running and some healing, he boosted his other magic, gained the ability to heal, to open anything locked (or rather not to have anything locked around him which has a downside) but to lose himself in the magic / unicorn thinking and eat grass every so often and run completely wild. Also he was growing unicorn physical traits.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I kind of left a couple of points dangling, and it bugged me, heh heh. So, a few points...

Gods are not the ultimate source of power, but there is a big old BUT. The short explanation goes a bit like this... Let's say a young sorcerer tries to create a ball of Fire. (For the uninitiated, capitalized Fire is elemental.) They channel energy from their surroundings, but that includes all of the elements, and they must refine that into Elemental Fire to create Fire. That diminishes their ability to channel the Element they need and "clutters" things. A young priest who prays for Fire, well, the god/spirit, demon or other entity will channel them "pure" Fire to use in the spell/prayer. After the Great Forgetting, this lends a massive advantage to holy magic versus sorcery.

The energy they use is in fact for the same source.

Hell on Earth scenario? A version of hell, no doubt about it. The Touched has an even clearer understanding of the events than even Kûmjotu-Kî. But, the ultimate result is unknown because the Great Forgetting erased its possibility... for the time being. In the long game of the series of novels (Hmmm, 20+ books?) The Great Forgetting is at the heart of the world story.

I figured the 'Great Forgetting' was no accident. Strong suspicion is that the alternative was even worse...as in equivalent of 'hell on Earth' worse. I figure there could be hell to pay should certain long-lived folks regain their memories.

I did consider the Gods to be more 'explanation' than 'actuality.' Given your description, I could see a deity or ten deciding to enhance/alter/revoke certain of their followers' abilities.

As to my worlds...

Magical talent (psionic ability) is mostly, though not entirely hereditary in my worlds - the whole genetic manipulation thing by the ancient aliens. Sometimes the talent skips a generation or five, and there are flukes who just appear out of nowhere (or no known lineage) with arcane ability. There are also (extremely dangerous) events and substances that might grant an ordinary person paranormal ability. All told...probably one person in five thousand has enough psychic ability to be worth training. Most never do; they go through life with a reputation for being lucky or really good with animals or some such. Even if trained, most of them still wouldn't amount to much, 'magically' speaking. Actual trained wizards...maybe one in ten thousand of the populace as a whole, if that.

 

[ThinkerX]

In my system, such as it is, 'magically created fire' is actually a version of telekinesis. View it this way: rub two sticks together long enough and hard enough, and you generate heat and eventually fire through friction. Creating magical fire works much the same way, except that the 'sticks' are tiny, about one notch above 'microscopic.'

 

[Demesnedenoir]

The Elements in my system are more like subatomic particles passing through everything. "Natural" magicians are people who a particular element tends to "linger" inside of. Life and Spirit are the most common to linger, hence healers are the most common form of natural sorcery. All of this plays into the Mystic Lapidaries, smithing, scrolls, runes, and enchantment in general.

In my system, such as it is, 'magically created fire' is actually a version of telekinesis. View it this way: rub two sticks together long enough and hard enough, and you generate heat and eventually fire through friction. Creating magical fire works much the same way, except that the 'sticks' are tiny, about one notch above 'microscopic.'

 

[CrystalD]

I do a soft magic system. It’s just the characters can channel things either from the world around them, i.e. nature and elemental magic, or internally, which is being able to nolify and negate people’s magic and interact with others brain and bodily functions if they need to. The energy to do so is inside of them, like energy their soul has in abundance, and that’s how they channel magic. I describe the usage of the magic more than the system, because I find writing and reading those descriptions more interesting then describing a maic system lol. It seems to weave together when I need to write a big magical scene,which I just finished doing. But as long as the magic is easy for me to use in my story, I prefer it to be soft with minor rules so it’s more flexible.

 

[pmmg]

I dont write out my magic 'system' either. Few characters can use it, and there is a variance of ability between them. I could explain the system, but I dont see it as something the characters would be explaining to any, so its only come out in a few pieces of dialog. A reader, reading my story would know by the characters who is going to have terrible power and who wont, and it works. If someone wants to get lost in the weeds of my system, I guess they will have to read the supporting material But they wont (so far) find it laid out in the story in any definitive fashion.

Which is all to say, I support your sense on this.

(Oops, already answered this one, thought it was a new thread.)