Magical Artefacts

[Feo Takahari]

You know, thinking about it, I'd kinda want to do the opposite of this - a villanous character get a hold of an enchanted artifact that slowly starts to have a good influence on him over time, making him more honorable and heroic.

Sounds like the "hero title" in Disgaea 3.

 

[Saigonnus]

You know, thinking about it, I'd kinda want to do the opposite of this - a villanous character get a hold of an enchanted artifact that slowly starts to have a good influence on him over time, making him more honorable and heroic.

Sounds like a plan, could be a great premise for a plotline or story of itself. You'd just have to figure out what type of item it is and what sort of powers it has. The only thing I forsee is that if the "villain" gets ahold of the item and become good... the type of motivation he has would either have to still be valid as a "good" person as he was as "evil". (He would just use different methods to accomplish the same goals); twist the circumstances to some other goal... or just abandon the goal, which is a bit anti-climatic.

Edit: A thought I just had is that perhaps it creates a split-personality if the villain is particularly strong mentally; so he will be conflicted within yet still carry out those bad deeds at the same time his alternate personality is trying to have him be good.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Personally I like magical weapons and artifacts. I think they add flavour to a book, and since in most cases the people using them are wizards who are generally not considered to be huge bulging muscle warrior types, they often don't really make them invincible so much as keep them in the fight. As for the relative power thing, that's in the plotting. Clearly you don't want any weapon to be so overwhelming that it removes the sense of suspense.

Oddly its one of the things I've always found confusing about LOTR. The ring, this uber powerful artifact. And what can it do? Corrupt the bearer's soul and turn him invisible. The first is absolutely not an advantage to the wearer, and the second is a nice little party trick, but not a defeat all your enemies in seconds type mega weapon.

And at the same time I like Excaliber for much the same reason. As a sword it isn't really going to defeat an army. It might get stuck in a stone from time to time, and it may inspire and annoint the rightful king, but in the end, winning and losing the battles came down more or less to the wielder.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[SeverinR]

The balance of power must be reasonable.
If you have a device that makes your character so much more powerful then anyone else,
why would he not use it to rid the world of the enemy(good or bad), what would keep them from taking over.

My personal magic is fairly weak, powerful magic requires more energy then a person can produce, which could knock them out, put them in a coma, or kill them. Thus they must bank their energy into objects(batteries basically), draw from a magical creatures larger resource, or as in necromancy, draw power from other living creatures to their demise.
My magic items are more powerful then the individual but still must not over power the character.

If the item protects the person so as to make them impervious to weapons, or allows them to kill so fast no one could harm the user, then they have little to fear, and they can take more risks then the average person. More risks, more power in the conquest.

 

[Anders Ämting]

Sounds like a plan, could be a great premise for a plotline or story of itself.

Well, I wouldn't say it's enough for a whole story. Might make a fun subplot, though.

You'd just have to figure out what type of item it is and what sort of powers it has.

Right off the top of my head, I was thinking a sword that literally makes you more virtuous and enhances your sense of empathy and justice. Maybe it's angelic in nature or something.

The only thing I forsee is that if the "villain" gets ahold of the item and become good... the type of motivation he has would either have to still be valid as a "good" person as he was as "evil". (He would just use different methods to accomplish the same goals); twist the circumstances to some other goal... or just abandon the goal, which is a bit anti-climatic.

I'm pretty sure there is no rule that says a character has to stick to the same motivations from start to finish. I just think it would be interesting to see him go from villain to anti-villain, then to anti-hero, then to full-on hero.

Would probaby work best with an Evil Liutenant-type villain.

Edit: A thought I just had is that perhaps it creates a split-personality if the villain is particularly strong mentally; so he will be conflicted within yet still carry out those bad deeds at the same time his alternate personality is trying to have him be good.

Honestly, this feels a bit like a cop out to me, kinda have your evil cake and eat it. No wishy-washyness, says I! You'll never write good character development if you can't commit.

 

[Mindfire]

I'm not sure I get the whole "artifact of goodness makes you good over time" thing. You can get away with the reverse with evil artifacts because that's how evil works: it corrupts, subverts, infects. But you can't do the same thing with goodness because it's nature is different and it doesn't use those methods. I think the best you could manage would be to have the artifact cause him to feel remorse or guilt for his past actions, eventually leading him to a change of heart.

 

[Saigonnus]

Honestly, this feels a bit like a cop out to me, kinda have your evil cake and eat it. No wishy-washyness, says I! You'll never write good character development if you can't commit.

Not necessarily;it could add a depth to the character if such a plot device was used. Imagine the alternate personality having more and more influence as it has more interaction with the psyche of the villain. Maybe at the beginning, he still does what he wants and shrugs off the influence the object has, but it becomes more difficult until he can't always shrug it off; like a forcible alteration to the psyche. Later it could be all-but impossible to do those things he really wants to (those evil deeds) and is forced to find a way to do it that is still within his moral compass. Like fighting against himself and losing himself to the power of the device.

 

[Saigonnus]

I'm not sure I get the whole "artifact of goodness makes you good over time" thing. You can get away with the reverse with evil artifacts because that's how evil works: it corrupts, subverts, infects. But you can't do the same thing with goodness because it's nature is different and it doesn't use those methods. I think the best you could manage would be to have the artifact cause him to feel remorse or guilt for his past actions, eventually leading him to a change of heart.

What if said artifact is necessary to accomplishing the ultimate goal of the story? i.e. the sword that kills the chief antagonist. What if the only person available/capable to use the sword is himself evil (a family heirloom needing a member of the bloodline for example)? An unwilling hero as it were. Would a truly sentient sword needing to accomplish this goal not use it's influence in this manner to subvert the evil anti-hero so he could do what is needed? Wouldn't it be considered one of those times that it is simply the easiest way to accomplish the task instead of merely "hoping" he'll have a change of heart? The greater good and all that...

 

[Mindfire]

What if said artifact is necessary to accomplishing the ultimate goal of the story? i.e. the sword that kills the chief antagonist. What if the only person available/capable to use the sword is himself evil (a family heirloom needing a member of the bloodline for example)? An unwilling hero as it were. Would a truly sentient sword needing to accomplish this goal not use it's influence in this manner to subvert the evil anti-hero so he could do what is needed? Wouldn't it be considered one of those times that it is simply the easiest way to accomplish the task instead of merely "hoping" he'll have a change of heart? The greater good and all that...

Well in that case, the artifact isn't really an elemental force of good, it's just using it's owner to accomplish an end, which somewhat defeats the point of making it a "good" artifact. At best you could make it a "lawful" or "neutral" artifact, to borrow alignment terms.

 

[Saigonnus]

I would think it's possible. Would an "angel" (for lack of a better word); trapped inside a sword and wanting desperately to get out use such a tactic against a demon that initially banished them to the sword? I would think it would if all other avenues of influence were ineffective.

I do agree that perhaps with a very limited situation it wouldd be possible, but generally you are correct.

 

[Mindfire]

I would think it's possible. Would an "angel" (for lack of a better word); trapped inside a sword and wanting desperately to get out use such a tactic against a demon that initially banished them to the sword? I would think it would if all other avenues of influence were ineffective.

Why wouldn't the angel just will the sword into the hands of a more suitable bearer? And where's God during all of this? I think this discussion will be most productive if we keep it in as general terms as possible. Otherwise we have to address the issue of plot holes.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Actually the whole artifact of good idea could work. It'd be tricky, but many characters (and probably people) are unable to do bad things simply because they know it would cause harm, pain etc. As Mindfire says that could be partly based on ideas of remorse and guilt, but if you dig underneath that you get another set of emotions - empathy, sympathy, love. So what if your artifact worked on these? What if it awakened all those positive feelings in a person so that they couldn't say kick a dog to death because they'd simply look into its innocent trusting eyes and know that it would simply be too horrible to contemplate.

Oddly enough this would be a form of subversion and corruption, but instead of the natural goodness in a person being attacked it would be the natural evil.

You could write this very well actually, doing a twist on the entire good versus evil tortured soul thing, but from the other side. The dark, selfish soul wanting so badly to go out and steal and murder etc, but finding himself torn as he also has this desperate need within him not to harm anyone, but instead to help them and bring them comfort. Imagine if Robin Hood say, were written this way. A bad man, a thief and killer, given an enchanted bow of goodness. It could work well.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Mindfire]

Hi,

Actually the whole artifact of good idea could work. It'd be tricky, but many characters (and probably people) are unable to do bad things simply because they know it would cause harm, pain etc. As Mindfire says that could be partly based on ideas of remorse and guilt, but if you dig underneath that you get another set of emotions - empathy, sympathy, love. So what if your artifact worked on these? What if it awakened all those positive feelings in a person so that they couldn't say kick a dog to death because they'd simply look into its innocent trusting eyes and know that it would simply be too horrible to contemplate.

Oddly enough this would be a form of subversion and corruption, but instead of the natural goodness in a person being attacked it would be the natural evil.

You could write this very well actually, doing a twist on the entire good versus evil tortured soul thing, but from the other side. The dark, selfish soul wanting so badly to go out and steal and murder etc, but finding himself torn as he also has this desperate need within him not to harm anyone, but instead to help them and bring them comfort. Imagine if Robin Hood say, were written this way. A bad man, a thief and killer, given an enchanted bow of goodness. It could work well.

Cheers, Greg.

Interesting idea, Psy, and it could work, but only if the villain wasn't a complete monster. The problem being that if they are, if they're just pure evil, then there's not even any residual empathy or love left to work on. The artifact would have to inject some into a heart already hostile to it, and forcing it's way in is against the nature of goodness. HOWEVER, if you had a villain who still had even a speck of humanity left to work on, you'd be in business. In short, this trick would work on Darth Vader, but not Emperor Palpatine.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

You mean Emporer Palpatine the puppy lover?

I agree, but I think it's very hard to find a bad guy who doesn't have at least some spark of goodness in him somewhere. And if you do find one, he's likely a very one dimensional character.

Cheers, Greg.