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Mecha Machine Magic. Hit a wall, need help.

Soul

Acolyte
Trying to develop a magic system, where mech are the foci, and is some what machine themed. Trying for a more logical system that leaves room for creativity. Bouncing around so many ideas, following some then hitting a dead end. I need some external input. What I am going for is an artificer or mechanical mage magic system. Where society is magic-punk, so there is wider spread use of magictech for basic machines and amenities. BUT mages themselves are not super common. All things are hooked up to a magic grid that is fueled by all people as all people naturally have massive stores of magic. But only very few can actually tap into their internal reserve and wield it. So while more high tech creations exist, such as magic guns, massive air ships etc, the amount of people able to use such devices limits widespread adoption.
I want mechs to work as foci, where mage pilots have their abiltiys significantly amplified. I don't want them to just be force multipliers, so mages abilities are drastically hindered when not using a foci(mech) or the smaller but still large suits of powered armor that allow for more power than just a person but less than a mech. That said I do want them to have some limited ability when operating on their own.
The Things That Have Been Thrown at the Wall: A none exhaustive list, but the things I have liked the most and have taken bits and pieces of:
Astral Metal: Special alloying process making metal conduct magic and gain other properties while magic runs through it. Astral Iron for example has low conductivity and low storage meaning channeling magic through it takes a lot of work, and it does not store magic well, but while magic runs through it, it becomes nearly indestructible.

Force: Machines are ultimately just ways of transforming and transmitting force. So mage gain some form of control over a kind of force. Kinetic, Magnetism etc. More emphasis on things like lite kinetics (telekinesis, walls of force etc) and less on things like gravitational force. If every mage could invert gravity while in a mech they would go from weapon platforms/machines of war to near god like entities. But perhaps a special few should have that kind of power.

Runes and Gears: What I have worked the most on basically.
The Gears: Easily the one with the most development. Gears are obtained through plumbing the clockworks and finding binding stations, where a piece of a machine that exists or existed is bound to the mage and physical representation as a gear. Gears will always represent parts or functions of a machine or tool with the exception of the Force Gear and the Rune Gear, gears created by the god of machines itself. It should be noted that “catch-all” gears also exist, and generally refer to some sort of widely adapted tool. “Earth Mover” could be referring to a spade head, shovel head, hoe head, tractor etc. Meanwhile most gears are specific such as the Lens Gear which allows one to magnify and focus force.
The Gears are not physical, but ethereal representations of their tool or part. When a mage channels magic these gears appear behind them, centering on the square of the back. Mages construct a gear train in this way, requiring the user to be cognizant of where the place them. A gear rotating counter clockwise will inverse its effect. The lens gear going counter clockwise instead defuses or unfocuses a thing.


The Runes: Runes a way of imprinting commands onto things. For the mecha it may look like this:
Rune Array is inlaid over the skeleton of the entire machine, allowing for the movement of limbs, smaller parts like rocket pods etc.

The Rune Matrix is the core, typically inserted into the back of the mech but not always, that gives the Pilot access to a certain amount of magical effects that they can wield while piloting their machine.

Runes exist but humanity is unable to create runes to dictate the form of something, only the effects. The magical machines of this world function by a limited design because of this. For example if you had fire then used the Form rune defining- “projectile” would shoot the fire forth as a fireball or gout of flame. Instead Form is inherited from the item the runes are placed on. If you inscribe warmth onto a lantern, the form of the object is its purpose, in this case to produce light, so all things touched by the light of the lantern also feel themselves greatly warmed by it.

The more far removed the effects are from the object the harder it is to do and the more energy is required to power it. A lantern already produces a little heat so amplifying and extending that isn't hard. Having it cool people down is a bit more of a stretch but not by a whole lot. Having it obliterate any living thing touched by the light is something that would be very hard to do, and take a lot of energy. Perhaps something like this could exist as a masterwork, but it may only work once before breaking itself or at least needing to be charged.

Mechs are loaded with with a variety of runes allowing its pilot to use a variety of effects. Mages themselves obtain Gears, representations of a part,tool, or function. For example the Lens Gear allows the user to focus or magnify something. Every Gear comes with a Form Rune that the mage has an intrinsic link to. While in a mecha they can access their form rune freely.

So bringing it all together if a Mage had the Lens gear, inscribed with “projectile” and a massive version of the lantern, Rather than allow the light to spill out in all directions as a lantern generally does, they could focus it in one direction or focus it into spheres, then launch them in a direction. Their warmth and light amplified scorching whatever they touch.
 

Nim

Dreamer
This does look like a cool idea for a magic system! At this time I am not entirely sure what kind of feedback to give you, but I do have a couple of questions that may or may not help you think about this at all.

1. What does the society that this system exists in look like? How well understood is by the general population is the stuff you have described here?

2. What is the history of the understanding of this type of magic? How did people learn about gears and runes, and the need to build mechs to focus their magic?
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
I dont really see the question in this. What are you hitting a wall on?

Already, this has more detail than I would map out.


Some commentary on it:

The idea that all people have magic, and all of them combined fuel the magic world reminds me a bit of the Matrix where all people are batteries.

I dont get why people cant make runes. Who made the runes in the first place?

The way this is described, it seems almost like magic legos. Put together the combination of legos with runes and get some effects.


It may be counter to your concept, but I would look to the electronics world for how this functions.

In electronics we have:

Transformers, which increase/decrease voltage
Capacitors, which store energy
Diodes, which act like a damn, blocking energy until a voltage is reached and then releasing it all at once.
Resistors, which block or stem the flow of energy.
Swtiches, which block energy flow until something closes it.


Why could I not have something in magic that acted like a transformer, increasing the 'pressure' of magic, waiting for a switch to release it all at once?
 

Soul

Acolyte
I dont really see the question in this. What are you hitting a wall on?

Already, this has more detail than I would map out.


Some commentary on it:

The idea that all people have magic, and all of them combined fuel the magic world reminds me a bit of the Matrix where all people are batteries.

I dont get why people cant make runes. Who made the runes in the first place?

The way this is described, it seems almost like magic legos. Put together the combination of legos with runes and get some effects.


It may be counter to your concept, but I would look to the electronics world for how this functions.

In electronics we have:

Transformers, which increase/decrease voltage
Capacitors, which store energy
Diodes, which act like a damn, blocking energy until a voltage is reached and then releasing it all at once.
Resistors, which block or stem the flow of energy.
Swtiches, which block energy flow until something closes it.


Why could I not have something in magic that acted like a transformer, increasing the 'pressure' of magic, waiting for a switch to release it all at once?
Yeah it is alot of detail. For other things I have not done this, but I kind of wanted to experiment, see how I can push things.

Nver thought of it but yeah I guess kinda? Except everyone is aware of it. In most societys it is kinda of like a "greater good" kind of thing.

Ihmm I will have to look into electronics, that seems interesting, Thank you!

Any yeah it kinda is like lego. Just the problem and power restriction comes from finding said lego.
 

Rexenm

Maester
Is it like a mech trapped in another realm, or do they walk around this steampunk world. I say steam punk, though there is not any steam, but there seems to be a mecca. I think mechs fight other mechs, and they are usually kept away from by the other smaller mechs. This could even end up as a musical, such togetherness in excitement.

From what you have explained, it seems like there are only a few mechs, or one, because I see the idea of some happy town celebrating their hero all too much. It is more a nuance, but maybe the whole story is about a mech that passes on, and changes the political landscape, into something more stupid.
 

SoreenQ

New Member
You didn't put forth any issues so i don't know what the wall is. However, i must say the Gear and Rune system is a deceptively hard magic system but felt very soft; This for me provides an issue of scope or limitations. How many gears and runes are there? How do people obtain them? How to power them? To what extent? The Runes seems to have similar problem with addition of 'humans can't make them' clause which i chalked as 'humans can't make new runic characters' instead (forgive me if i'm wrong).

Only 2 things i must inquire on those systems: 1) how do you measure the costs in using those systems and what are the drawbacks? 2) the runes, are they a language or like electrical circuitry? If it's a language, how do you make the meanings consistent? Any grammars needed?

Unto the next subject, a broader world building. I like limitations so i wonder about their limitations which mostly consists of their numbers and capabilities.
1) numbers : it seems while magic is common, mages are rare and those who operates mechs are rarer so it leads to scarcity. Does only select few posses them? Like noble houses and governments? Mech monopolies? Any privileges for the pilot? Were the spare parts hard to come by? Pricing? Supply and demand? Where are they most needed?

2) capabilities : what justifies the creation and continued use of these mechs? What are their biggest potential? Were there competing technologies that could replace them? What are they mainly used for and what else could they be feasibly used for?

.o.

I would like to imagine a few things i could add in the setting.
1) Gear Compendium : listed gears made by the god with their name, effect and power requirements. Available to all but provided and researched mostly by the clergy.
2) Runic Dictionary : lists of symbols and their effects plus their power requirements. Available to everyone, limited characters but near limitless combinations (if allowed)
3) competing technologies : development of new or improvement of old technologies competes with the role the mechs filled. Also a way to reduce monopoly by some parties. Example : magic powered flyers provide unparalleled advantage of flight over airborne mechs (a case of mastery)
4) hybrid technologies : a blurring of different technologies resulting in new products. Example : flesh bound rune (drawing runes on protein based bodies), MAP (magically assisted pilot) helps provide more able bodied pilots due to assistance of mana batteries and circuitry built into the mechs (like manual vs automatic cars), Pixy program (imagine AI but mana based, like homunculi but ethereal).
5) cultural influences : some mechs have some niches or attributes unique to some cultures. Example : a region have better amphibian mechs due to their archipelagic area while some country are known to have better entertainment mechs that could do a multidimensional acrobatic.
6) mana-clysm : catastrophes brought by over reliance of magic in its own form or its derivative technologies and cultural society. While magic seems to be omni present, not all is able to tap into it thus making a deadly monopoly by the ables. Perhaps a stratified society will form where those who have better amount and control of magic will gain privileges. Hell, imagine the continuous use of industrial scale magic changed the climate or even enticed an eldritch outer god.
7) divinity : god seems to exists and they leave behind the Gears and perhaps the Rune too, maybe they left more for us.
 

Soul

Acolyte
You didn't put forth any issues so i don't know what the wall is. However, i must say the Gear and Rune system is a deceptively hard magic system but felt very soft; This for me provides an issue of scope or limitations. How many gears and runes are there? How do people obtain them? How to power them? To what extent? The Runes seems to have similar problem with addition of 'humans can't make them' clause which i chalked as 'humans can't make new runic characters' instead (forgive me if i'm wrong).

Only 2 things i must inquire on those systems: 1) how do you measure the costs in using those systems and what are the drawbacks? 2) the runes, are they a language or like electrical circuitry? If it's a language, how do you make the meanings consistent? Any grammars needed?

Unto the next subject, a broader world building. I like limitations so i wonder about their limitations which mostly consists of their numbers and capabilities.
1) numbers : it seems while magic is common, mages are rare and those who operates mechs are rarer so it leads to scarcity. Does only select few posses them? Like noble houses and governments? Mech monopolies? Any privileges for the pilot? Were the spare parts hard to come by? Pricing? Supply and demand? Where are they most needed?

2) capabilities : what justifies the creation and continued use of these mechs? What are their biggest potential? Were there competing technologies that could replace them? What are they mainly used for and what else could they be feasibly used for?

.o.

I would like to imagine a few things i could add in the setting.
1) Gear Compendium : listed gears made by the god with their name, effect and power requirements. Available to all but provided and researched mostly by the clergy.
2) Runic Dictionary : lists of symbols and their effects plus their power requirements. Available to everyone, limited characters but near limitless combinations (if allowed)
3) competing technologies : development of new or improvement of old technologies competes with the role the mechs filled. Also a way to reduce monopoly by some parties. Example : magic powered flyers provide unparalleled advantage of flight over airborne mechs (a case of mastery)
4) hybrid technologies : a blurring of different technologies resulting in new products. Example : flesh bound rune (drawing runes on protein based bodies), MAP (magically assisted pilot) helps provide more able bodied pilots due to assistance of mana batteries and circuitry built into the mechs (like manual vs automatic cars), Pixy program (imagine AI but mana based, like homunculi but ethereal).
5) cultural influences : some mechs have some niches or attributes unique to some cultures. Example : a region have better amphibian mechs due to their archipelagic area while some country are known to have better entertainment mechs that could do a multidimensional acrobatic.
6) mana-clysm : catastrophes brought by over reliance of magic in its own form or its derivative technologies and cultural society. While magic seems to be omni present, not all is able to tap into it thus making a deadly monopoly by the ables. Perhaps a stratified society will form where those who have better amount and control of magic will gain privileges. Hell, imagine the continuous use of industrial scale magic changed the climate or even enticed an eldritch outer god.
7) divinity : god seems to exists and they leave behind the Gears and perhaps the Rune too, maybe they left more for us.
I guess that is my problem. I have these ideas, like you said the gears are pretty hard but then the concepts soft. I feel like I have the blocks for somthing interesting but cant quite figure out how to put them together. But I can answer a few of these.

1. COST: Any mage can channel their magic essentially indefinetly. But doing so generates heat internally. So its very possible to fry yourself. Additinally with the way it currently works a mage is limited by what Gears/runes they have access to, unless they are in a mech. Additinally whileoutside of a mech any magic the mage has is purly tactile, they can only use their magic on things they can touch.

2. A bit of both. I have been playing with it more sense this post and have a few ideas. And this has evolved since then. I want the gears to have two functions one in a mech and one outside. Currently they work as platforms to scribe a rune onto.


3. Magic is commonish. Due to the learning of runes being very difficult or incredibly dangerous. Due to this mages with similar amibitons or wants tend to congregate to share knowledge, forming Conclaves. Inside these Conclaves they have another form or "currency" in the form of etchings. You cannot inscribe or maintain a rune you lack the knowledge of, so you ask someone who does to inscribe or repair one, and in return you will inscribe or repair a rune that you know for the other person.

These Conclaves reltive wants and interests and up effecting the societys around them. There is one for example that uses most of thier knowledge in the creation of ammenities. Thus the massive port city that their Conclave is located in actually has somthing like modern plumbing. With a massive waste system for the general city and the noble class having somthing like on demand plumbing we may see in a monder home. This is achived through the use of Gravity runes causing the contetns of a pipe to "fall" in a given direction.

The mechs are needed becasue the magic was never actually intended for people. This is why all magic is tactile, and can cause people to fry themselves as unlike a machine people dont have built in ways of dispeasring heat. The use of a mech allows magic to be used away from the host as it emulates the orginal intention of the magic, to be used by a small race of machine beings.
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
Trying to develop a magic system, where mech are the foci, and is some what machine themed. Trying for a more logical system that leaves room for creativity. Bouncing around so many ideas, following some then hitting a dead end.

It might be helpful if you posted some of the ideas you followed and explained why they hit a wall.

I dont think people really understand the issue here.
 

Soul

Acolyte
It might be helpful if you posted some of the ideas you followed and explained why they hit a wall.

I dont think people really understand the issue here.
Yeah. I have a more concrete idea than beforeand what I am looking for. Think I may just make a new post.
 
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