Publishable?

[Ryan_Crown]

This is a good article that touches on some of these things:

My Advice to Aspiring Authors | Hugh Howey

For example, he comments that you're better off with your 10th novel blowing up than your 1st, because then you've got a backlist of books for your readers to go back and get.

 

[Chessie]

That's actually a very good article. I second the recommendation.

 

[Philip Overby]

At what point can self-promotion backfire? Maybe it isn't the amount but how it is handled. There are a lot of self-published authors who, in my view, over-promote online and it really puts me off wanting to try their books.

Someone posted this cartoon on G+, and it accurately captures how I sometimes view self-promotion:

For me, it's about some kind of balance. If I see someone as a real person who posts about other things, like to talk about writing in general, or whatever then I tend to be more interested in those people on social media rather than somehow who is always just posting links to their books. I don't mind self-promotion now and again, especially if it's an ACTUAL promotion (a sale, a giveaway, etc.) and not just blanket spamming anyone and everyone. Some say this method of spamming works, so that's why they do it. So if it works for some, then that works for that person. I guess it depends on what circles one runs in.

I like Steerpike's posts on Google+ because he shares cool fantasy pictures, talks about issues that he's interested in and shares writing related posts. I don't like other people's posts sometimes because they're only posting links to their blogs or books. So I don't post as much on Google+ as I like unless it's in Communities.

 

[Steerpike]

Thanks, Phil. I'm glad you like the posts. I have fun making them!

 

[Philip Overby]

Sure thing, Steerpike!

I also notice that I find self-promotion less bothersome for me if it's in person. I don't so much mind people trying to sell me a book in person. In fact, I'll often buy a book from someone at a convention if they give me a good reason to buy it. I haven't been to a convention in years, but I digress. For some reason, online activity seems to err on the side of not coming across robotic or desperate for attention. You want people to organically grow to like you and thus be interested in your work. Some people do this intentionally, while others are just naturally charismatic and creative people who can get anyone to buy anything because they have a good product that they're confident in.

The most worrisome thing about promoting is trying to figure out if you're annoying people and that's why they're not buying it or that they're just not interested in what you're selling. I was a "Buy my Book" person when I first started writing. Mostly because I was proud that I got something published and I wanted people to check out my stories in various anthologies. However, my only way of promotion was "Hey, I have a new story in this anthology. Check it out." That hasn't really worked for me in the past. Sometimes I don't really know what else to do though. That's why I think outside the box promotions and attempts to garner interest in yourself and your work is a good strategy. And getting books out there in the world is always going to be your most valuable form of promotion. Once you build your "brand" (I know that's a dirty word for some), you will hopefully have a loyal following that pick up your books because they know you're not going to disappoint them.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

My Advice to Aspiring Authors | Hugh Howey

Recommended reading! Thanks for linking it, Ryan!

 

[Incanus]

Well, I'm not too worried about becoming 'in-your-face' when it comes to promoting myself. If fact, should that ever happen, you can be sure that my body has been forcibly possessed by some malignant entity, and can thence be summarily ignored.

In the meantime, the Hugh Howey article was quite good. He makes some very compelling arguments for self-publishing. Viewed as a 'guideline', there are a couple of things I'll likely be doing a bit different, as befits my style and temperment. Overall, it was very inspiring.

And thanks to everyone here! The course I'm steering becomes a little bit clearer every day thanks to the input of my fellow aspiring writers!

 

[Mythopoet]

I saw this article, Incanus, and thought of this thread:

The New Weird is the new New Wave? « TeleRead: News and views on e-books, libraries, publishing and related topics

Apparently the "New Weird" is a sub-genre on the rise. That's good news for those of us influenced by Lovecraft and similar work.

 

[Philip Overby]

I'm all about some New Weird. I think some of my fiction might fit into this group as well.

 

[Steerpike]

I think Mieville falls into the "new weird" category. To some extent, Kage Baker's Anvil of the World might qualify, though less so than some of the other examples (great book, by the way). I do think it is making a bit of a resurgence, but I think that's been going on for a few years now and I've wondered whether it isn't starting to taper off a bit. This article suggests that it is not, which I hope is the case.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I'm going to play devil's advocate on this one, because getting published isn't easy.

One thing I was surprised to find out is that once you send your manuscript to an agent, IF they like it even a little, the first thing they do is Google you. If you don't have a website, blog, facebook author's page, etc. and if those things don't have a respectable amount of followers, you just became a six-year-old girl in an arm-wrestling competition with the local biker game. You don't stand a chance if all the strikes are against you. If you want to publish something out of the ordinary, show the agents you have a following. Show them you can market yourself and believe in your work enough to hire an independent editor before you give them your best attempt at editing your first novel.

I don't mean at all to discourage. In fact, I'm glad I started writing without the goal to publish. That single thing probably saved my writing life. If I had tried to publish any of my first novels, I would have been terribly discouraged. But instead, I wrote. Now, I'm trying to get published for the first time. I would encourage all new writers to just write what you love. Write, write, write. Forget about publishing, forget about agents. Those things don't help you get books done. They're counter-productive.

I think this is the place where most hopes and dreams are crushed. I queried my current book exactly once. Then I turned my attention to doing the work for myself. I felt it was the best return on my time investment. I had to face that my current story is so far from marketable to an agent, because of its twisty plots, general use of characters' PsOV, and the tone I wanted to set, that I was going to hire an editor for $800 and get the work done that I just couldn't do. Do you know why? Because the agent i had my heart set on working with, rejected my novel in three paragraphs. She saw one little thing she didn't love (that the character was invading a building to kill a man for revenge) and she assumed the female lead was an assassin and she couldn't stomach it. Forget the fact that in the next paragraph I clearly state that she's not an assassin. Forget the fact that the scene was a rewind to 20 months before the story began, with the incident that began the real tale, she didn't even get to it all.

After I saw that, I decided I needed to go about getting my work published differently. Now, I'll mention for the sake of the earlier points, that this is my eleventh novel. But it's the one most publishable. I believe in this work, and the progress I've made on it over the last two years, has filled me with confidence that it's as good as I can get it. But I KNOW it isn't ready for the market, or readers in general. I came to that conclusion when no one who ever read it made it to the end. I mean, if that isn't an obvious "It isn't keeping my attention" I don't know what is.

The thing is, a new writer has a mountain to climb, and most people who try the climb won't ever see the summit. However, those reasons vary from not having enough time to finish, to self-publishing rough work before it's ready, and everything between. I'd say, to get yourself started on the best possible path, get a single book written first. Series don't get picked up quickly by agents if you're a new writer because they won't take a chance on a trilogy and commit to publishing three books on a no-name writer. Also, get a blog and a facebook author page, write on it regularly, and begin building a fan base. It's really important and if you find you're writing posts for twenty friends and family members, it's as good as nothing and you might consider paying for advertising. It's unfortunate, and I wish I could say skip the whole thing, but so many agents admit to these things, you can't deny that it's an important element for the no-name, unproven writer.

The industry is harsh and IF you succeed in a traditional publishing deal, you may have to sit by and watch significant power over your work in editors' and artists' hands. Michael Sullivan is a good one to talk to about this because he has a successful career both traditionally and self-published. He's also given me some pointers on how clean you need to be to catch an agent's attention. Right after talking to him, I searched out an editor I'd have to pay out of my pocket. Still, $800 is a small price to pay to see my two years' work turn into the work I know it can be. But remember, this is my BEST work and it's still not good enough. The result of a decade of writing and three years spent just honing in on how to edit.

At this point, I'm not interested in agents who would reject me on the third paragraph. They're looking for any small reason to say no, and I gave it to them. It doesn't matter that they were wrong about their assumption, I let them think something I didn't mean to, and I paid the price. SO, I'll pay again, for editing, get the book where I want it to be, with the editor's help, and in the end, I'll self-publish, where I can be more in control of the artistic decisions (after hiring a cover artist). I read a really good book about self-publishing, and it says it costs $2000 to publish your own book in a really professional manner, that will stand proudly next to any indie or traditionally-published book on amazon. And after all, that's my only goal, because I can't continue to work on this one book forever. The odds are, few people will read it, good as I think it is.

Instead, they'll click on my name after I have a list of seven books holding my banner up. So I better get writing! I have a stack of old crap I might think about editing, but I'm looking toward the new ideas I have, for more stand-alone novels. That is, after all, what agents look for--an author who can turn out a few stand alone novels to prove they have what it takes, and then do a series the publishing company can make money on from loyal readers.

The fact is, every step away from "the norm" you go, the less likely your chance for success. I know, I know, Twilight succeeded, but it fulfilled a niche need, for young ladies to read about fashionable vampires with complicate love lives. Probably the new generation's need for a soap opera they can relate to. But it doesn't sound like you're filling a need of a huge percentage of the population. I'm a reasonably intelligent person and I do not tend toward stories when I'm looking for deep reflection, I like something lighthearted, amusing, and easy to read. I loved Harry Potter.

So what I would say, now that you are probably super upset with my take on your dilemma, is that you write your book you like. Write the whole series. If it turns out better than my first ten novels, I wish you the best of luck in getting them published. But always look toward the future. They say it takes a million words to become a good writer and I wholeheartedly agree. Let those million words come out on something you are passionate about and love. If they get you writing, finishing books, and furthering your journey, that's great! Because otherwise, you won't want to spend three years learning how to edit those things into professional quality, going through critique after critique, or paying out of pocket for an editor. We must set ourselves up to succeed and writing as a job is like any other job, you do it every day, get really good at all the not-so-fun elements of it, like editing and critiquing, and then you taste some success based on your hard work. A good idea only gets a writer so far. The rest is sweat and tears, and if you write on paper like me, a little blood.

Best wishes.

 

[Incanus]

Thanks, Mytho. Interesting article.

From what I can tell about 'new weird', none of my work seems to fit into it. For one thing, it looks as though much or all of it is 'urban'. I don't do urban of any kind. Dont' read it, not interested in it. Also, China Mieville's strong disparaging of Tolkien, or Tolkien influenced works, makes me more than hesitant. I'm not writing him off all together, it's just that in my view, he has a mark against him right out of the gate for that reason. (I'm perfectly happy to have any of my misunderstandings corrected though.)

Really, my current stuff is leaning more in the Clark Ashton Smith/Jack Vance direction; the HPL I refer to is more from his 'dream' or 'fantasy' era, as opposed to the 'Cthulhu' cycle stuff.

I guess I'm more 'old weird' then. And that may remove me entirely from the 'main-stream'. So be it. I have to love what I'm writing.

 

[Incanus]

Thanks, Caged Maiden, for your voluble insights! Clearly, yours is the voice of experience.

I'm not the least bit discouraged or 'super upset' by your comments. I'm not exactly a spring-chicken. For me, the most important thing of all is that I am finally (mostly) satisfied with my writing. It took about 30 years to achieve this. I seem to be coming at this from a different angle than many, for good or ill. For whatever reason, I've always been obsessed with prose and style. I tried to do the 'normal' thing of writing rough first drafts, deferring the quality prose for later versions. This has not worked for me. The language and the story are far too inextricably bound together. I end up feeling like I'm just practicing and developing 'bad writing' skills. Whacky as it might be, I think good writing isn't an afterthought, something that can just be heaped on top of a completed work. It is part of the foundation of a story, just as much as character, setting, and plot.

Sorry for the tangent, but I feel that my odd approach, and my off-the-main-stream-path stories are all related. I'm surprised to hear that 'Twilight' isn't, or wasn't, mainstream. It looks to be wildly popular. I know virtually nothing about it, but I assumed that soap-opera vampires were about as dumbed-down and mainstream as it gets. (Willing to be corrected about this, should my lack of familiararity prove me erroneous.)

I started this thread to increase my understanding of the ostensible path I'm on, not to alter my course. I want to know what I'm getting into, what I'm up against, and the replies here have helped with that.

So, thanks again everyone--it has been most illuminating.

 

[Mythopoet]

Thanks, Mytho. Interesting article.

From what I can tell about 'new weird', none of my work seems to fit into it. For one thing, it looks as though much or all of it is 'urban'. I don't do urban of any kind. Dont' read it, not interested in it. Also, China Mieville's strong disparaging of Tolkien, or Tolkien influenced works, makes me more than hesitant. I'm not writing him off all together, it's just that in my view, he has a mark against him right out of the gate for that reason. (I'm perfectly happy to have any of my misunderstandings corrected though.)

Really, my current stuff is leaning more in the Clark Ashton Smith/Jack Vance direction; the HPL I refer to is more from his 'dream' or 'fantasy' era, as opposed to the 'Cthulhu' cycle stuff.

I guess I'm more 'old weird' then. And that may remove me entirely from the 'main-stream'. So be it. I have to love what I'm writing.

I'm the same. I LOVE The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath and the other stories of the Dream Cycle. And I'm a huge fan of Lord Dunsany who was Lovecraft's major influence for them. I only recently read The Dying Earth which was amazing and now I'm reading The Book of the New Sun which was largely inspired by it. The House on the Borderland and The Night Land are also huge inspirations for me.

I'm not really familiar with the actual work that would be counted among the "New Weird". The article's author seems to do reviews of books in the horror genre a lot and it seems like he is mostly talking about the "New Weird" in the context of the horror genre, which I don't read at all. But I figured any resurgence of "weird" fiction is good. And there's certainly room in the fantasy genre for more of it.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Yeah, my comment about Twilight wasn't about it being weird or unique, so much as I meant it in regard to its actual quality. It is by all accounts, a story I would never have called "ready to be published" yet it made millions of dollars. It did so by filling a particular need that many people have, the need for simple soap opera, but for the younger folks of today, who probably don't care to sit through endless weeks of the Salem killer being revealed and Marlena's latest coma. Yeah, I watched a few years of Days of our Lives...

I try never to assume people's age or experience, but when someone says, "first novel" I have to assume it's their first green work, and for many writers, that means a single piece upon which their hopes and dreams rest, though they have no real writing experience. Like I mentioned, I feel lucky I wrote for ten years without the pressure of considering publishing. If I did, I would have quit. But first I wrote, then I thought I might want to publish. Then I found MS, and now, I'm finally well-rounded enough (after three years of hard work) to maybe present a publishable story.

I encourage everyone to follow their own path and be as brave as they want to be and take whatever risks they can stomach, but I think some people are quite a bit softer than I am in that respect, and believe that if they want something with all their heart, it will somehow come together. If someone wants to write, I think they need to know how swiftly and harshly rejection can come and so often, all we learn are success stories, those one in a million shots where someone hooked an agent with a rough manuscript on their first query and it turned into Twilight. Or, we hear about the person who was rejected repeatedly and gave up. That second story tells young writers to just stick with it, because if you do, the first story will be yours some day. But I believe spreading those kinds of tales is irresponsible, which was why I shared my own experience and why I resolved myself to, after this single rejection on this manuscript, go my own way. I'm not a new writer. I have the money to pay an editor. And I just need to move on. If this book isn't the gem I think it is, I'll be glad in three years I didn't spend another two years working on it more, but turned my attention to bigger, better things.

And who knows...after I have seven books under my name, maybe people will pick up this one and open it and enjoy it because it's something different from my future titles and style.

I'm glad you didn't mind me playing devil's advocate. I just try to be as honest as possible, and I feel like getting traditionally published with an agent is a long shot (because the agent still has to sell the book to a publisher), no matter what you're doing. If you follow all the rules, you fail to wow them with creativity, and if you break the rules, you didn't conform to marketable standard. Screwed, either way, haha. But I'd still encourage everyone who wants to, to try traditional publishing first. I felt the same way about it two years ago. I wouldn't hear of self-publishing, because I didn't want to be caught up in a sea of garbage. But now I realize that both good and bad books are self-published, and my job is only to make sure mine is one of the good ones. So that's what I aim to do now, unless some kind agent sees my work and reaches out. I'm not holding my breath.

Best wishes as you move forward on your projects. I see the merit of writing an old style. I know there are cerebral people out there who would appreciate it. I'm just not experienced enough to know whether an agent would be impressed. One suggestion might be to reach out to one. Maybe at a con or some other forum where people can ask questions of agents/ editors? There are many sites like Immerse or Die, that might give some insight from critics. I've had a lot of hours of reading on that site, checking out books he's read.

 

[Incanus]

Ah, yes--I see what you mean regarding 'Twilight'. That it was in a relatively poor state when submitted had been my understanding as well.

And you're quite right--when I signed up here about four months ago, I had some pretty 'head-in-the-clouds' ideas about the super-duper novel I was planning on writing. It was after reading through Phil O's 'practice novel' thread that I decided to join up here. In the meantime, wanting to work on something, I started on a batch of short stories. These have turned out to be most illuminating. It is through these that I am further understanding my strengths and weaknesses. At first, the weaknesses seemed to be detrimental to my long-term, epic fantasy goals. I began to despair, but have since sloughed off such thoughts, especially as my 'wierd' novella piece seems to be working fairly well (so far!).

I like to--and choose to--believe that what I have learned recently will benefit me greatly when I do start tackling the larger works. I want to build up the catalog some more, then send out a few pieces just to see what happens (fully expecting rejects, of course).

I, for one, appreciate your honesty. We all could stand to use a dash of reality from time to time (especially us fantasists)! And I thank you for your encouragement as well. I hope that you find a way to navigate successfully the apparent paradoxes of publishing with your works.

I think next year is going to be an interesting year...

 

[Incanus]

One thing I was surprised to find out is that once you send your manuscript to an agent, IF they like it even a little, the first thing they do is Google you. If you don't have a website, blog, facebook author's page, etc. and if those things don't have a respectable amount of followers, you just became a six-year-old girl in an arm-wrestling competition with the local biker game. You don't stand a chance if all the strikes are against you.

While this is rather depressing, and likely, I'm wondering how universally true it is. Publishers would reject an otherwise viable submission for these tenuously related reasons? I find it a little difficult to believe that every writer that has had some success in the last fifteen years or so, are each and every one a proverbial 'used car salesman'.

This is potentially a death sentence for me. I don't do 'social media' (except here, I guess). I don't have a facebook page, I don't chat, I don't 'tweet'. It would seem my only chance is to find someone who might want to handle such things, but they'd have to be a pretty true believer, maybe as difficult as finding a agent or publisher in the first place.

Eventually, I will have some kind of author page and internet, but I won't expect much traffic or interest.

I WILL be writing, howver. I'm pretty well addicted at this point.

 

[cupiscent]

Caged Maiden has made a whole heap of eloquent and valid points there, but there are two counterpoints I'd like to make:

1) Yes, an agent will google you, but my sense of this is that for fiction, online presence isn't the be-all and end-all. They probably will be looking for indications of what you might be like to work with, though. New Leaf Literary agents offered some thoughts on this topic over here.

2) Agents are not looking for any excuse to say no. They aren't open to queries because they love crushing a hundred writers a day. They are looking to say yes. They really, really want you to be their next favourite author to work with. As agent Jennie Goloboy noted in a recent blog post, 'Every time I open my Red Sofa inbox, I have the same thought in my head: “Please let one of these queries be a good one!”'

Yes, it's hard. Yes, you should think about whether the traditional publishing route suits what you want to write and the sort of career you want to have. Yes, you should think very carefully about whether any particular agent is going to support you in the career you want to have, writing the sort of stuff you want to write. But agents aren't the enemy. They're potentially your biggest ally. Help them realise you're The One.